Pre trib Rapture.

[PlainWord]

I see but Zechariah 4:14 says that Jesus will come with all the saints and God himself to destroy the gentile armies that encamp around Jerusalem. It seems to me that we will already be with Christ and we come back with him to set up the kingdom. That sounds like 2 different events there. Then Paul says that were Gonna meet Christ in the air...not when he plants his feet on mt. of olives. Cuz once Christ lands the light of the world changes and there's physical changes in the earth. But no earthly changes are associated with meeting Christ in the air...no physical changes or nothing except our bodies. The rapture and 2nd advent are truly 2 different events.

Meeting Christ in the air and having Him take us to heaven sound like two separate events to me. Nowhere, and I repeat, nowhere in the Bible does it teach that those who are "raptured" go immediately to heaven. Nowhere are two second comings of Jesus taught and nowhere is a return of Christ placed before the Tribulation. The "Rapture" or "gathering of us to Him" as Paul calls it, and the Second Advent of Christ is the same event!!!!

Here is the correct sequence of Events:

The Lord returns at the last (or 7th trumpet). Mat 24:29-31, Rev 11:15 etc. He comes down on a white horse with the armies in heaven, Rev 19:13-14.

...and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,followed Him on white horses."

He brings with Him the souls in heaven and resurrects their bodies in the air. Those of us still "alive and remaining" through the first 6 trumpets meet them in the air. (We, the Church and Israel, are all tested and purified by Tribulation). The Olive Tree is complete. We all receive glorified bodies. The Lord then brings us all down to earth. The Lord sets up "camp" near or in Jerusalem/Zion. Jesus declares His kingdom on earth amongst His enemies. God pours out His bowls of wrath on the Beast and His kingdom. At the 6th bowl Satan and His forces gather at Armageddon and Jesus and His forces meet them for battle, Rev 20, Zech 14. The Beast is defeated and Satan and the bad guys are chained 1,000 years.

Jesus comes once and He stays. He rules the nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years, until He puts all His enemies under His feet. From the time of His coming until the 1,000 years are over, man can still be saved. Those who are not killed by Christ when He comes, enter the millennial period. If you accepted the Lord after He comes (7th trumpet) you remain a mortal until you die and come back at the end of the age.

1 Cor 15:22-26.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. [SUP]

25[/SUP]For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

I don't see any rapture here. This view As I set forth is consistent with every verse on the subject. Let's look at:

The Pre-Trib View:

The Pre-Trib view has more holes in it than Titanic. This view would have us believe Jesus descends from heaven, brings all the souls in heaven to earth's clouds just to resurrect them. He then gathers all those believers who are alive and takes us (the Gentile Church) and saints all back to heaven. This is all done, of course, in secret, so secret He never mentions this event in the Bible. Meanwhile Jesus leaves His Chosen People Israel on earth to suffer unbelievable destruction - thereby "ungrafting" the church from the Olive Tree - while we all sit up in heaven and watch. Then He comes back a few years later with everybody, this time to stay and reign.

Of course to do what the Pre-Tribber teaches would mean Jesus would have to break His own Word and disobey God the Father by violating Psalm 110. "Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool." Psalm 110 probably most completely describes the events as I described them in one passage:

Psalm 110:

The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” The Lord stays in heaven until he's ready to reign. No secret Rapture
[SUP]2 [/SUP]The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. This is why Jesus is seen on Mt. Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies! Jesus is on earth ruling during the Bowl judgments. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Your people shall be volunteers We are gathered to fight with Jesus at Armageddon.
In the day of Your power;
In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning,
You have the dew of Your youth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]The Lord has sworn
And will not relent,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”


[SUP]5 [/SUP]The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath. Rev 20
[SUP]6 [/SUP]He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies, Armageddon, Rev 19, Mat 28
He shall execute the heads of many countries.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]He shall drink of the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He shall lift up the head

 

[PlainWord]

I don't see how someone can get meeting Christ in the air confused with coming back with Christ at Armageddon.
You are right tho...Christ only comes back once...when he smites the gentile armies. Christ doesn't come back to earth till then but he appears in the heavens before then to call the saints back. I have never classified the 2nd advent as the rapture. What I'm staying is we meet Christ in the air as Paul said then we come back with him at the 2nd advent which is his true and eternal coming. And after all rebellion is put down God will be all n all n new Jerusalem will come from the sky.

Have you read Rev 19-20, or Psalm 110, or Luke 17:37? This is exactly what is described.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. [SUP]12 [/SUP]His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[SUP][e][/SUP] a name written that no one knew except Himself. [SUP]13 [/SUP]He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[SUP][f][/SUP] followed Him on white horses. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[SUP][g][/SUP] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
[h=3]The Beast and His Armies Defeated[/h][SUP]17 [/SUP]Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,[SUP][h][/SUP] [SUP]18 [/SUP]that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free[SUP][i][/SUP] and slave, both small and great.”
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

 

[presidente]

Hi all. I believe in the pretrib rapture for many biblical reasons but a few of my friends are changing their minds. Their reason to start questioning pretrib is not because of scripture but because they say why should we be exempt from persecution. Once they hold to that premise then they begin trying to find scripture for this view. I first respond that we will not necessarily be exempt from persecution and that if the Lord tarries we will have probably will be persecuted for our faith. I believe the tribulation is not for the church but to bring Israel to the Messiah. I was wondering if my fellow Christians out their could give me a concise biblical response to my friends who are leaving the biblical view of the rapture.

I used to be pre-trib. I was raised that way. Then I realized I just couldn't find it in the Bible. The prooftexts for it require circular reasoning and eisegeses. Like saying he that prevents the man of sin must refer to the Holy Spirit or the church leaving at the rapture, but the Bible doesn't say that.

If you read Revelation, the saints are there till the end.

I also see that a lot of things happen at the coming of Christ, not seven years before it. I Corinthians 5 speaks of all men being made alive at His coming, not five years before it.

The deathnail for pre-trib for me is I Thessalonians 5 which tells the CHURCH that they will be given rest when Jesus returns executing judgment on them that believe not. If you look at the terminology throughout the book, it is consistent with these events happening after the man of sin appears.

I can't find any decent evidence that the rapture is pre-trib, but I do find solid evidence in scripture that it is not.

 

[Wall]

I see but Zechariah 4:14 says that Jesus will come with all the saints and God himself to destroy the gentile armies that encamp around Jerusalem. It seems to me that we will already be with Christ and we come back with him to set up the kingdom. That sounds like 2 different events there. Then Paul says that were Gonna meet Christ in the air...not when he plants his feet on mt. of olives. Cuz once Christ lands the light of the world changes and there's physical changes in the earth. But no earthly changes are associated with meeting Christ in the air...no physical changes or nothing except our bodies. The rapture and 2nd advent are truly 2 different events.

Are you saying the saints {Zech 4} are those who were raptured?

 

[Wall]

I see but Zechariah 4:14 says that Jesus will come with all the saints and God himself to destroy the gentile armies that encamp around Jerusalem.

Zechariah 4:13-14 (KJV)
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

I think your reading an awful lot....you must of goofed

 

[presidente]

I see but Zechariah 4:14 says that Jesus will come with all the saints and God himself to destroy the gentile armies that encamp around Jerusalem. It seems to me that we will already be with Christ and we come back with him to set up the kingdom. That sounds like 2 different events there. Then Paul says that were Gonna meet Christ in the air...not when he plants his feet on mt. of olives. Cuz once Christ lands the light of the world changes and there's physical changes in the earth. But no earthly changes are associated with meeting Christ in the air...no physical changes or nothing except our bodies. The rapture and 2nd advent are truly 2 different events.

I don't see a case for a rapture seven years before Christ's coming at all. I Corinthians 15 talks of men being made alive 'at His coming.'

About Christ coming with the holy ones, consider Mark 8:38
If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."

And also consider that we meet Him in the air as He is coming down, so the saints will be with Him. There doesn't need to be a seven year or three and a half year gap.

Where does pre-trib actually come from in scripture? I can't find it. It's assumed. How is pre-trib consistent with this?

2 Thessalonians 1

1 Paul, Silas and Timothy,

To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

....

5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

How can Jesus give the church relief from their troubles when He punishes them that do not obey the Gospel if the church was already given relief 7 years before?

Is there any actual reason to believe pre-trib except maybe you were taught that? Is there anything in the Bible that hints at the idea?

 

[ChosenbyHim]

The problem you have, of course dear brother, is you don't have a single verse that tells you they are different events. Instead, everything in the Word suggests ONE return of Christ and places the time at the 7th trumpet, which is "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days" and BEFORE the wrath of God of the 7 bowls.

The Pre-Trib Rapture view is NOT taught in the Bible and is an invention of man, or worse. This view flies in the face of all the teachings of Jesus, Paul and the disciples. But you will never be convinced of this until you find yourself in the middle of the Tribulation. Then you will come around.

Plain, I won't be here for the time of Jacob's trouble. And neither will you if your saved.

The Apostle Paul exhorts us to look for the glorious appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ.

We are never told to look for the new world order or the antichrist.

When the antichrist is released in Revelation 6, the four and twenty elders are already in Heaven and crowned (see Rev. 4:4,10).

 

[PlainWord]

Plain, I won't be here for the time of Jacob's trouble. And neither will you if your saved.

The Apostle Paul exhorts us to look for the glorious appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ.

We are never told to look for the new world order or the antichrist.

When the antichrist is released in Revelation 6, the four and twenty elders are already in Heaven and crowned (see Rev. 4:4,10).

Here you go again dear brother, using conjecture to support your baseless theory. Nowhere are we told the identity of these elders. They could be angelic for all we know, although I do think they were human. They could be the 12 disciples plus 12 leaders of the tribes of Israel or they could be the profits. We just don't know. So you can't speculate that because there are 24 elders in heaven by Rev 4 that this means there is a Pre-Trib Rapture. That is a tremendous leap.

Paul tells us to look forward to Jesus returning, sure - agreed. He also tells us that Jesus will NOT appear until the Man of Sin is revealed:

2 Thes 2:

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Are you trying to deceive dear brother or are you being deceived? Either way, Paul doesn't teach a coming of the Lord before this. Paul doesn't teach of a Pre-Trib rapture at all.

Again:

1. You don't have one verse that places a return of the Lord before the Tribulation.
2. You don't have one verse that contains 2 returns of the Lord.
3. You don't have one verse that clearly puts a "Raptured" church in heaven during the Tribulation.
4. You can't explain how Jesus can come at the last trumpet (before the Trib) when clearly there are more to be blown during the Trib.
5. You have no explanation for how Jesus can leave the right hand of the Father BEFORE his enemies are made his footstool.

 

[PlainWord]

Plus Chosen,

You haven't explained how the Church can be raptured, thereby tearing out the newly grafted branches from the Olive Tree. This would violate the whole purpose and spirit of the "grafting in."

 

[jb]

I believe in the pretrib rapture....

Aint NO such thing, sister, the Scriptures teach very clearly that the Church goes through the Great Tribulation. Rev 7v9,10,14.

I think you need to go and have another think and prolonged prayer on your erroneous theory...

 

[PlainWord]

I have concrete evidence that there is no rapture at least before the 5th seal is opened.

Rev 6:

"I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

How can there be souls under the alter if there was a rapture? 1 Cor 15:

[SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— [SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

If there was a rapture already, these "souls" would be in glorified bodies and no longer be just souls.

 

[watcher2013]

Good point plain word. John 6:40 kJV And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. From Jesus own word.
If those who believe will be resurrected at the LAST day, and from 1 thes 4:13-18 we know that the dead shall rise FIRST. So the rapture is....
the Resurrection and Rapture - YouTube

 

[zone]

pretrib rapture is stupid - who believes this stuff?


its getting harder and harder to handle this nonsense with kid gloves.
why?
why should we?

IT'S NOT FOUND ANYWHERE in the bible.
it's an American classic.

GET SERIOUS

 

[CoooCaw]

your heresy invariably leads to antisemitism

I have concrete evidence that there is no rapture at least before the 5th seal is opened.

Rev 6:

"I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

How can there be souls under the alter if there was a rapture? 1 Cor 15:

[SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— [SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

If there was a rapture already, these "souls" would be in glorified bodies and no longer be just souls.

 

[Donkeyfish07]

your heresy invariably leads to antisemitism

I'm just gonna skip over that Heresy claim and ask how what he posted could possibly lead someone to hate Jews

 

[jandian]

What amazes me about the pre-trib theory; How does Christ come for half of His bride before and then another half after? SMH. The devil is such a deceiver.

 

[PlainWord]

your heresy invariably leads to antisemitism

First off, I have been to Israel and you won't find a more staunch supporter of Israel than me so your words are as baseless as they are offensive. Secondly, what heresy dear friend in Christ??? Spell it out. We have souls, not glorified saints, under the alter in heaven at the 5th seal so tell me how can there have been a rapture already? I'm dying to hear your theory on this.

Let's look at the KEY rapture passage all pre-Tribbers are quick to cite again. 1 Cor 15: Note that no where are we told when this event happens, pre, mid, post. We are told it happens at the last trump. But is this last trump the same as the 7th trumpet of Rev?

[SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— [SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Let's compare with Rev 10:

7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

I can't say for certain if the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet but I can say that "the mystery of God" is finished here. This sure sounds like a big solid piece of evidence for the rapture being at the 7th trumpet, doesn't it? To have a last trumpet you have to have trumpet(s) that come before.

Can you name a trumpet that comes before the one blown at the so-called Pre-Trib Rapture my friend? Can you show me a mystery that gets solved before the Tribulation? Let me show you one more passage. This one contains another mystery being revealed by Paul who of course was also a profit as he wrote most of the end time passages in the NT, outside Rev. This one is from Eph 3:

3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,

4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),

5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:

6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,

Pre-Tribbers believe that the Gentile church somehow gets spared the Tribulation which is to fall upon the earth and the state of Israel. Why would God rapture half of the body? Why would he ungraft the newly grafted branches (Romans 11) from the Olive Tree? The Pre-trib view has no basis in scripture - NONE!!! There isn't one passage that places the Rapture before the Tribulation or has two separate comings of Jesus. The church is not shown in heaven before the 7th trumpet yet somehow millions believe this lie. Talk about heresy brother.

 

[Wall]

pretrib rapture is stupid - who believes this stuff?


its getting harder and harder to handle this nonsense with kid gloves.
why?
why should we?

IT'S NOT FOUND ANYWHERE in the bible.
it's an American classic.

GET SERIOUS

Hey Zone,

We agree on something!

 

[john832]

Have you read Rev 19-20, or Psalm 110, or Luke 17:37? This is exactly what is described.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. [SUP]12 [/SUP]His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[SUP][e][/SUP] a name written that no one knew except Himself. [SUP]13 [/SUP]He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[SUP][f][/SUP] followed Him on white horses. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[SUP][g][/SUP] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
The Beast and His Armies Defeated

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,[SUP][h][/SUP] [SUP]18 [/SUP]that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free[SUP][i][/SUP] and slave, both small and great.”
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

You sure it is the saints?

2Ki 6:16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.
2Ki 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

 

[PlainWord]

You sure it is the saints?

2Ki 6:16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.
2Ki 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

I am not certain on the 1st resurrection, whether it is all the saints or just the martyred saints that return with the Lord. I struggle with John 6 telling us that the resurrection happens on the "last day" then telling us in John 12:48 that the unbeliever will be judged, apparently on this same "last day."