Seeking Answers

Jumping in here based on what OP said in OP and Rod's response... because our faith is not based on "nothing."
Empirical evidence builds our faith as surely or more so than anything else people believe and have faith in.

Also, Jeffersonian, I wanted to let you know that I was reminded of your dilemma as I drove to work this morning... I listen to Christian talk radio (do you do that? Do you attend a church, or have a church home, or are you looking? Perhaps attending your wife's church? So you are exposed to a variety of Christian teachings? kari55.com is online and available 24/7/365, although Friday evenings is foreign language content and Saturday during the day they have health-related infomercials. Otherwise it is ad free and hosts a variety of teachers and expositors. I find listening to a wide variety more helpful than listening to just one, for I can learn even from those with whom I disagree more largely). Any ways, a program was on as I was driving to work and they were talking about Jews for Jesus. As you can maybe imagine, some Jews are particularly difficult to convince of the Truth of God's revealed written Word as per the New Testament, and even parts of the Old Testament are often deliberately hidden from them by their Rabbis because they point too clearly to Jesus. Whoa haha all these tangents LOL. The point is them speaking of Jews for Jesus reminded me of a youtube channel called White Chair films (also available here => I am second <= that is a link) with over 150 films featuring the real stories of real people who met the real Jesus. You may benefit from listening to some of them. It does seem obvious to me that God is drawing you and certainly your heart is being prepared but your mind is still "hostile." I met a woman once at one of the Alpha Courses I attended in person as a volunteer after coming to believe... she claimed she wanted to believe and had been coming to the Alpha Course for many years but was still not willing to surrender all her yeah-buts. It seemed an odd predicament to be in. And Jesus did criticize those who followed Him for the wrong reasons. I pray you find the right reason... that the only reason to believe is made shockingly clear to you in a personal encounter you will never be able to deny.

it is really not true when someone says, "all you need to do is believe in Jesus & you're saved". Romans 10::9- "if thou shalt confess with thy mouth.....". Ephesians 2:8,9,10- "....for we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM". James 1:22, 23, 24- "but be ye DOERS of the word & not hearers only......". James 1:25- "he, being not a forgetful hearer, but a DOER of the work....." i've seen many people say they believe in Jesus & their lifestyle does not reflect it at all.

Thanks for sharing - I love how some of the people featured from science (even others) backgrounds found their way. That's incredible and does show that it's possible no matter where you are in life.

I grew up Catholic but stopped going to church when I was a young teenager. My wife (we're in our early 30s...

There are actually a very high number of scientists who are Nobel Prize winners who are also Christians and/or Jewish ... so believing in God does not necessarily contradict having a solid background in science. In fact science is just the exploration of the natural world, and that is something that God created, is it not? And if you do any research into the matter, the first universities and institutions of higher learning were pretty much all started by Christians.

Thanks for responding! Just a quick question if you don't mind.

So in terms of what you posted (I've been aware of this text in the past), do you believe that someone who truthfully in their heart believes in Jesus but does evil deeds throughout their life can or can't go to heaven?

Personally, I can't believe they can. I've heard people tell me, "well, someone who does evil deeds can't honestly believe in Jesus because if they really did, they wouldn't do those evil deeds."

I get stuck here too because while I understand what they're saying, 1. If the person believes Jesus cleanses them of their sins, can't they theoretically believe in him and still perform evil deeds anyway? 2. And if someone evil (Won't mention specific names, but say for example historical figures who committed mass genocides and other atrocities), later on in life recompents for their sins and lives their final years being a good and moral person, can they go to heaven?

I've talked with devout individuals who believe those two things on both sides. Me personally, (And I know my opinion doesn't matter because I haven't gotten to that point yet), I don't believe that someone who has done atrocious things like that should ever be permitted. I know it's not my decision of course, but I know people who believe they can and should, but if that's the case, I'm going to struggle with this for the rest of my life...sadly...

What do you think? I apologize as I'm sure this has been discussed here before, but I'm curious for your thoughts based on what you mentioned above. I've already read so much informative material here I'd be curious what your thoughts are too on this.

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond!

no, you can NOT go to heaven. if someone truly believes in Jesus they aren't going to have any desire to commit to evil works. the difference between a believer & an atheist is that an atheist commits sin willfully, any time & doesn't care, without any improvement to stop sinning. believers will sin from time to time but their new regenerated heart, mind, soul, conscious & spirit will immediately tell them & convict them of the sin WITH A DESIRE TO STOP SINNING. the admittance, identification, recognition & correction is strong to stop sinning. & you will obey your mind. in other words, unrepentant sin gets you to hell. i got saved back in 1993 on about May or June. by course, i was always looking at girls, especially in the summer time & i started to hear my brain tell me, "stop looking at girls with lust, that's sin". i took me a while to stop but i eventually did.

if someone evil (Won't mention specific names, but say for example historical figures who committed mass genocides and other atrocities),
later on in life recompents for their sins and lives their final years being a good and moral person, can they go to heaven?

There are actually a very high number of scientists who are Nobel Prize winners who are also Christians and/or Jewish ... so believing in God does not necessarily contradict having a solid background in science. In fact science is just the exploration of the natural world, and that is something that God created, is it not? And if you do any research into the matter, the first universities and institutions of higher learning were pretty much all started by Christians.

Have you ever watched any debates between well-known atheists and Christians? Someone like John Lennox is a very interesting fellow to witness in those types of situations... there are many of them with/or between various people, available online ... and I even saw Dawkins being totally stumped once lol. It was when he was asked abiut phylogenetic mutations between species or resulting in a new species. I hope I'm using the right words... I'm a little rusty on these points because I really normally don't engage in those types of conversations, as I don't find them edifying. But when I first stumbled into apologetics, I spent the first 8 years talking almost exclusively to atheists, agnostics, and secular humanists, among a wide variety of other non-believers, such as people who identified as chickens and satan's success trap LOL that is hilarious ... I'm talking on my phone at a cafe having coffee... but what I actually said was Wiccans and Satanists and my phone auto corrected 🤣

Anyway, I was just saying that because in the course of speaking to them, of course I had to look into quite a few issues, but I did realize right away that it wasn't worth really getting too deeply into a lot of them, because, well, let's face it, that's not why I was there in the first place. I was there hoping to encourage them to seek, and that is one of the reasons why I think it's so great that that is what you are doing. But I did want to ask you about your Jeffersonian association, because he is well-known for having re-written the Bible, but he removed all the supernatural elements and all of Jesus' miracles. So my question to you now is, do you relate to that part of Jefferson not believing in the supernatural? Because honestly, to me, believing there is God but not believing that He is supreme Creator, and many of the other adjectives that we ascribe to Him, really doesn't make sense. Like what comes to me now is how frightened the disciples became of Jesus when he calmed the storm, and/or walked on water ... they wondered Who He was that He had the power to do that... but of course Jesus as God has power over the elements that He created.

You know it's been many years since I spoke almost exclusively to those people, and I was actually on myspace when it was resold and reclaimed for its original purpose of musicians connecting with other musicians, and all the boards went bye bye... But I had a really great time while I was there, and remember quite clearly some of the things the non-believers said to me, such as, spiritual is a soggy cabbage of a word LOL. Some just could not wrap their mind around anything to do with spirituality and yet that is very much the background that I came out of. So I am kind of wondering where you stand on that issue...

Thanks! I'll look into these things. I have seen a few debates, but that was a long time ago. I'll take another look.

And in regard to your question about why I relate to Jefferson, I agree with him in the sense that there most definitely is a God, and that God did create everything, but like him I struggle with that God taking the form of man. From my perspective (and I really do apologize I'm saying this cause I know it comes across as rude), I have a difficult time believing such a powerful God would become man just to better relate and show us that he loves us by taking the form of His creation. I believe that there has to be a great deal of truth in the Bible and of God mentioned within, otherwise I don't see how such an incredible book would stand the test of time like it has. I just have trouble wrapping my head around the claims that Jesus was that God and had supernatural abilities (more on this below).

I've also battled in my head with the Trinity too. There were so many polytheistic religions back then that its hard for me to grasp God as the Trinity (as discussed at the Council of Nicaea) as opposed to an effort by man to help others better understand or feel more comfortable accepting Jesus as also being God. Does that makes sense?

I 100% believe Jesus was real, I just can't quite reach the point that he was/is also God. In regard to the miracles and supernatural feats that He accomplished, there are so many other figures in history (and religions) that have supposedly performed miracles but have been deemed by us today as untrue. A Greek god granting Midas the ability to turn everything he touched to gold comes to mind for some reason. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even people like Alexander The Great believed it to be true back then, but today it's believed to be a myth. (Didn't Alexander and his followers also genuinely believe he was the son of Zeus?)

I guess what I'm saying is, if one doesn't take the Bible as historical fact, the miracles you mentioned are as possible as Midas' ability. From what I've read of Jefferson (and I could be wrong), this is where he had trouble with Jesus' divinity. I believe Jesus was real and that he was a great moral teacher...there's no way He couldn't have been real considering He's been so loved by so many for so long. I just struggle with the divinity aspect like Jefferson. Hopefully that helps answer your question.

I'm sincerely just trying to explain myself, I hope I'm not coming across as argumentative or anything. I'm raising my two kids (ages 7 and 5) Christian, and I have NO problem with that whatsoever. I'm actually glad, deep down it does give me comfort. Because I would love more than anything to feel that way as well. Like Jefferson though, I have all these questions that make it difficult for me personally. As of now, at least...

As you said earlier, I'm hoping that by coming on here and researching everything shared with me, I will have a "clicking" moment and an experience that will help me reach that point.

As always, thanks for your great feedback and response.

Jesus fulfilled hundreds of Scriptures during His lifetime/ministry, starting with His very conception (born of a virgin).

Sorry, not whether the Earth is 6k years or not. I'm afraid that I'm accepting the wrong "belief" when something else might be correct.

For example, throughout history there have been hundreds if not thousands of religions (or just spiritual beliefs in general). Howcome so many people in antiquity and before that and after believe so many different things? I also think about Emperor Constantine...without his vision, would this "belief" I personally want to believe in (Christianity), have become so prevalent? Maybe it still would have found a way because its the truth after all, but I'm not certain...does that make any sense?

I'll review everything everybody has shared with me here before I start another thread. Hopefully these things can get cleared up by doing that. Thanks again for responding

Hi 😁 , hope u don't mind me interjecting . I've been reading this thread with interest . For me , reading the Bible every day is the best place to start to get to know God . In the first few years I read it about four times in a year , now it's just once in the year . The next thing that happened to me was I started to recognise God as being alive now , outside of what I was reading in the Bible . I could c how he was and still is , in this world , in my life , literally everywhere . This is very very comforting and joyful to me . To know that God is always everywhere , in this room with me now as I type this to u , in your room with u now as u read this , it is an awesome feeling . I have to say that I believe that God wants us to b consistent and to come to Him every day , to read His Word , to speak to Him in prayer , to recognise and acknowledge Him every day . It's like any relationship , consistent effort has to b made every day to build and strengthen the bond . Please don't b offended by what I say next because I don't mean it as a criticism , u have to do more than just talk about what u think He may b like with other people . People aren't God , if u want to get to know Him u must pick up a Bible and read it , regularly . Those r my thoughts on this matter and I hope I haven't offended u 😁 . May God bless your efforts to try to get to know Him .