Do we have free will ?

Is the Right Question: How Much Choice Do We Have?

One thing that spawns error is binary thinking:
like a thing must be so vs not so, or hot vs cold.

Should this question be reframed:

"How much free will does a man have?"

or

"How free is the will of man?"

Actually the term "will," so far as I know, in the Bible never occurs in the sense of a faculty, as if to say, "I have a thing called a 'will.'" And with my will I will.

The Greek work thelēma exists. The -ma suffix as a rule means result or object of an action. Thus one says, "I it my will that I eat pork chops." In other words, this will is what you want to do or intend to do, not a faculty.

There is a single Greek word translated using "free will" in Philemon, one of the few times this Greek expression occurs in English translation (at least in the ASV). Paul wanted Philemon's action to be of free will in letting the slave Onesimus stay with Paul.

whom I would fain have kept with me, that in thy behalf he might minister unto me in the bonds of the gospel: but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.

I would say we have the ability to make a decision, but as to how free that ability is, I'm not sure.

If you look into literal translations of the Hebrew and Greek there is a lot that's written in the scriptures that doesn't add up with a lot mainstream christian theology.

Re: Is the Right Question: How Much Choice Do We Have?

actually doing what you want to do, doesn't spawn from free will.
That statement is spawn from a will that is taken captive by sin because its expression is one of self. Not my will but yours as Jesus said...
True and genuine free will is having the ability to do what God wants and commands you to do.

and when I was speaking of the faculty of reason Paul mentions this in Romans when he defines how far sin has infected our humanity.
"no one seeks God" Speaks of the will
"no one understands God" speaks of the mind
"no one does good" speaks of the heart

so the question is why??

Is it because they can but choose not too...
NO
It is because sin has rendered every part of our humanity including our faculty of the mind and will and heart as dead.

Does it mean we can do good meta-physically ?? Yes (give to the poor etc)
But even Jesus said you who are EVIL still know how to give good gifts to your children.
jesus affirms that our faculty of reason isn't lost but rather evil.

So we are free in the sense that our humanity remains in shape and cognition but now it works for evil and is working against God rather for God.

So your statement is very shallow when you say I want to eat pork chops or not . Obviously we can choose to do so or not. The question isn't whether we can or not? The question is why would we??
Spiritually talking you cant.
meta physically you can.

Look at Scripture............

Romans 8:29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 .) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 .) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 .) He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 .) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 .) Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 .) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 .) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 .) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 .) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 .) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


So, a couple of questions.............1) Do people fully understand the concept of "for whom he did foreknow?" 2) If predestination is Biblical certainty, why, pray tell, is Jesus Christ at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.................

Why are those who from the beginning were "predestined" to salvation/eternal life IN NEED of an intercessor?

(just FYI............. )

That's an easy answer.

Because its Christ who keeps you and dare I say does everything for you on your behalf.
and also you are still in a fallen world with fallen people that can potentially come upon you as a believer.
But Christ is the one who does everything for you, to keep you from stumbling etc.

QUOTED:

That's an easy answer.

Because its Christ who keeps you and dare I say does everything for you on your behalf.
and also you are still in a fallen world with fallen people that can potentially come upon you as a believer.
But Christ is the one who does everything for you, to keep you from stumbling etc.

END QUOTATION.........

Oh, ok, gee, that really helps...........

See when Jesus said:
Matthew 5:19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I thought He meant what He said..........but, now I see that what He was really saying was......... "Don't worry about breaking any of the commandments, or doing them, or teaching them, cause I'm gonna do it for you."

And when Jesus said:


Matthew 6:1) Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2 .) Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3 .) But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:4 .) That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
I thought He meant what He said, but now I see He really didn't..........cause He's gonna do all that for us.

and when He said "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." in verse 33, I thought He meant it, but now I see that He really didn't, cause He will do all that for us.

Wow! This has been a great help and takes a huge weight off of my shoulders..........goodness........I don't gotta do nuttin', just hang around and let Jesus do it all!

But, boy I sure wonder WHY He gave us all those Commandments? What a waste of time...........after all, He's gonna do 'em all for us anyhoo...............goodness........

A person should get a little understanding interpreted to the mind eventualy or we are in trouble.
line upon line,line upon line,here a little,there a little.

Actually, you have pulled this scripture completely out of context. It is addressing Christians, not the unsaved.

"Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me." Rev. 3:19-20

You are going to have to do a lot better than Rev. 3:20 if you are talking about free will as far as salvation is concerned.

"For many are called, but few are chosen.” Matt 22:14

The scripture above in Matthew might be a better choice. I am also seriously wondering if this is a scripture to support double predestination? I will have to do some more studying and praying about that. I have never believed that the unsaved are damned by God.

I'm not going to post again because there are about 3 or 4 threads in the BDF on this topic, from one angle or another.

How About Focusing on the Relevant Scripture?

How about focusing on the scripture instead of going here & there & making claims that this or that means free will, when the expression is absent from the passage and there is neither any equivalent expression.

Actually "free will" does occur in Philemon (for starters), though the Greek word is not 2 words, free + will. Thus one would not conclude from this Greek word that man has a will & that this will is free.

Ezra 7 also has the expression in the ASV:

I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and their priests and the Levites, in my realm, that are minded of their own free will to go to Jerusalem, go with thee.

Philemon: but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.


14 χωρὶς δὲ τῆς σῆς γνώμης οὐδὲν ἠθέλησα ποιῆσαι, ἵνα μὴ ὡς κατὰ ἀνάγκην τὸ ἀγαθόν σου ᾖ ἀλλὰ κατὰ ἑκούσιον

κατὰ ἑκούσιον = according to free will.
κατὰ = according to
ἑκούσιον = free will


BDAG Lexicon:
ἑκούσιος, -ία, -ιον pert to doing someth. of one’s own volition, voluntary, as a volunteer .
κατὰ ἑκούσιον (opp. κατὰ ἀνάγκην) of one’s own free will Phlm 14(Num 15:3 καθ᾿ ἑκούσιον; as opposed to legal compulsion, cp. Plutarch., Mor. 446e).

ἑκουσίως adv. of ἐκούσιος willingly ποιμαίνειν [to shepherd]
(opp. ἀναγκαστῶς) 1 Pt 5:2;
without compulsion, i.e. deliberately, intentionally ἁμαρτάνειν [= to sin] Hb 10:26.


ἑκών, -οῦσα, -όν pert. to being favorably disposed to do someth. without pressure, willing(ly), glad(ly) ;
of one’s own free will ἑ. τοῦτο πράσσω 1 Cor 9:17
(w. ἄκων, extension of the usual pairing ἑκών . . . ἄκων).
ὑπετάγη οὐχ ἑκοῦσα it was subjected against its own will (v.l. οὐ θέλουσα) Ro 8:20

Contrast

ἄκων, ἄκουσα, ἆκον unwilling; [ἄ+ἑκών]
to be transl. as adv. unwillingly πράσσειν 1 Cor 9:17 .
ἄ. ἁμαρτάνειν sin inadvertently 1 Clement 2:3 (cp. Job 14:17).

[Note above that after the masculine form, the Lexicon lists the feminine & neuter, often just giving the termination of those forms without repeating the word's root, like ox, -en instead of ox, oxen.]

Re: Is the Right Question: How Much Choice Do We Have?

Nothing shallow about it; it was an illustration (that you missed apparently) on the meaning of the Greek work thelēma). Beware of rocking a hobby horse so strongly that you can't even hear what others are saying. Actually I don't think you made much attention at all to what I posted.[/quote]

Quoted:

Making up sarcasm doesn't prove anything.

Actually the entire Law of Moses was in effect during Christ's ministry -- it ended at the cross. Also, He had a special message to Israel, Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand. Israel did not repent & got no kingdom.

Then the Church was born. If you want the material most applicable to the present age, study Acts & the epistles.

We are not under the Law of Moses, nor under the special missionary rules given to the apostles in Mat 10, for example.

And BTW, do you own more than one coat? And are you perfect as the Father is?

END QUOTATION.............

1) Posting ones opinion doesn't prove anything either, but a lotta folks do anyway

2) So, you believe that the 4 Gospels of the Apostles that record the ministry of Jesus Christ are not applicable to the present age? Interesting..............

3) So we can just tear the 10th Chapter of Matthew out of the Bible then. Any others we can disregard?

4) Oh, goodness, sarcasm...........well, well, someone once told me "making up sarcasm doesn't prove anything." Can't remember right off who that was, but someone once told me that..........

Now, to the point. My comment Sir, was directed at a particular comment, of which I do not believe you were the author. Specifically - comment #26:

That's an easy answer.

Because its Christ who keeps you and dare I say does everything for you on your behalf.
and also you are still in a fallen world with fallen people that can potentially come upon you as a believer.
But Christ is the one who does everything for you, to keep you from stumbling etc.

My response was tongue in cheek to point out that this isn't completely truth...........If that bothers you, oh well.......

I strongly disagree with the notion of free will. It seems to me that determinism is the leading scientific view. Although there is an illusion of free will and choice, it's clear that there is none. Nature and nurture lead us into directions and wholly take us to different "choices" we make.

(The tree of the knowldege of good and bad) Adam and Eve could either obey God's command or disobey His commands, they could listen to God or listen to Satan, what did they freely choose to do?

I don't think it was free. Which is why I put the word "choices" in quotation marks

Isn't free will and free choice the same thing?.Ok, what do you think it is if there is no free will or free choice?.


One dictionary states,

Free: Not controlled by obligation or the will of another

Will: The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action

Choice: The power, right, or liberty to choose; option

Really old thread you know...........from July 2014

Yes, free will and free choice are the same thing. I don't think we have either. There is an illusion of freewill/free choice. Some philosophers suspect that we almost certainly MUST function as if we actually have a choice. But determinism seems to make more sense once you really think about it. Then again, we really don't have a choice whether we believe in determinism or free will lol. Just like I didn't have a choice to write this right now. Determinism is (in brief) the idea that EVERYTHING affects everything. From the large, to the microscopic. (I mean microscopic in a metaphorical way...not really talking about size in terms of mass, but size in terms of scale of importance i.e. anything from big life decisions, to what kind of sandwich you might eat later). We think we are making choices all the time. But really all sorts of things beyond our control are swaying us and making our decisions for us.

Some studies have been done in neuroscience that can actually display that machines or certain technology can actually know what you are going to do before it even registers as a conscious thought.