Am I wrong..Are they wrong? Was I sinning, were they? I'm so confused.

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mlssufan01

Member
#21
Feb 9, 2014
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#21
context is everything in Scripture...context and consistency: The passage about shaking off the dust was written specifically to disciples regarding when they preach the Gospel to unbelievers:
5 These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And proclaim as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’[c] 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers,[d] cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay. 9 Acquire no gold or silver or copper for your belts, 10 no bag for your journey, or two tunics[e] or sandals or a staff, for the laborer deserves his food. 11 And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart. 12 As you enter the house, greet it. 13 And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. 15 Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

But yes I've considered those other verses many times...perhaps because of the level of comfort I had with the family I strongly hope that they would not be of those who cause divisions. But I've also given them the benefit of the doubt because let's be fair here...I shouldn't have been facebook messaging with his children...and what with the culture today surrounding what happens with youth, I can totally understand the discomfort there and why it could be unsettling for a father. I can certainly understand why he would want to be careful.
 
Subhumanoidal

Subhumanoidal

Well-known member
#22
Sep 17, 2018
4,053
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#22
mlssufan01 said:
As to your question: why would you want to maintain any interaction with them?"
Because the Bible tells me to? To forgive and reconcile, blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called Sons of God? Let there be no divisions among you?
Maybe this is just me but I find it absolutely devastating that I have yet to find a church that practices these steps. I understand there are exceptions if a person remains unrepentant...but it just bothers me that I have yet to see such a thing happen in 15 years of church (whether it involved me or not)...and it just bothers me.
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Forgiveness doesn't mean you have to stick around. If you were walking through a forest and stepped in a bear trap, next time you went through that forest would you take the same route? Or would you take a different route that's safer?

In the OT I believe it was Abram (as in Abraham) had been traveling with a close friend. During their travels they began arguing more and more. By the time they arrived at their destination they agreed it was better to separate, because staying together wasn't healthy. And they did so because they saw that was the Wiser option. And yet they held no grudges.

Wisdom is amazingly sparse among Christian's, and often frowned upon. Yet the bible calls people to be wise.
Is it wise for you to step in a bear trap again?
 
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mlssufan01

Member
#23
Feb 9, 2014
168
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#23
Subhumanoidal said:
Forgiveness doesn't mean you have to stick around. If you were walking through a forest and stepped in a bear trap, next time you went through that forest would you take the same route? Or would you take a different route that's safer?

In the OT I believe it was Abram (as in Abraham) had been traveling with a close friend. During their travels they began arguing more and more. By the time they arrived at their destination they agreed it was better to separate, because staying together wasn't healthy. And they did so because they saw that was the Wiser option. And yet they held no grudges.

Wisdom is amazingly sparse among Christian's, and often frowned upon. Yet the bible calls people to be wise.
Is it wise for you to step in a bear trap again?
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Could you provide the bible verse to this story? At first glance I would say that this argument is not consistent with the rest of Scripture, but I will reserve until read the passage you are referencing
 
melita916

melita916

Senior Member
#25
Aug 12, 2011
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#25
Also, in Acts 15, Paul and Barnabas had a disagreement and decided it was best to separate.
 
M

mlssufan01

Member
#26
Feb 9, 2014
168
35
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#26
Subhumanoidal said:
Forgiveness doesn't mean you have to stick around. If you were walking through a forest and stepped in a bear trap, next time you went through that forest would you take the same route? Or would you take a different route that's safer?

In the OT I believe it was Abram (as in Abraham) had been traveling with a close friend. During their travels they began arguing more and more. By the time they arrived at their destination they agreed it was better to separate, because staying together wasn't healthy. And they did so because they saw that was the Wiser option. And yet they held no grudges.

Wisdom is amazingly sparse among Christian's, and often frowned upon. Yet the bible calls people to be wise.
Is it wise for you to step in a bear trap again?
Click to expand...

2 Now Abram was very rich in livestock, in silver, and in gold. 3 And he journeyed on from the Negeb as far as Bethel to the place where his tent had been at the beginning, between Bethel and Ai, 4 to the place where he had made an altar at the first. And there Abram called upon the name of the Lord. 5 And Lot, who went with Abram, also had flocks and herds and tents, 6 so that the land could not support both of them dwelling together; for their possessions were so great that they could not dwell together, 7 and there was strife between the herdsmen of Abram's livestock and the herdsmen of Lot's livestock. At that time the Canaanites and the Perizzites were dwelling in the land.
8 Then Abram said to Lot, “Let there be no strife between you and me, and between your herdsmen and my herdsmen, for we are kinsmen.[a] 9 Is not the whole land before you? Separate yourself from me. If you take the left hand, then I will go to the right, or if you take the right hand, then I will go to the left.” 10 And Lot lifted up his eyes and saw that the Jordan Valley was well watered everywhere like the garden of the Lord, like the land of Egypt, in the direction of Zoar. (This was before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.) 11 So Lot chose for himself all the Jordan Valley, and Lot journeyed east. Thus they separated from each other. 12 Abram settled in the land of Canaan, while Lot settled among the cities of the valley and moved his tent as far as Sodom.

So what we actually see here is that the herdsmen were causing strife, not Abram & Lot themselves. This was how matters were settled, and an account of events...but there is no instruction for this to be follow by Christ followers. Besides this, we don't have enough information to know what was going on between the herdsmen, we only see Abram & Lot trying to maintain their friendship by separating their employees, whom we do not know where there hearts were in relationship to the LORD.

As for Paul and Barnabas---again, we see no actual instruction for Christ followers to exemplify their behavior, this is only an account of events...not a suggested practice. When evaluating of the story is a story to show believers failures vs. where it is an instruction, keep matters consistent and always view on context. We know that Paul said divisions are sin--this is a division--so this is not permission for us to divide....at best it could be a display of grace to both believers despite their failure...but that doesn't mean division is now acceptable...as this would contradict other Scriptures.
 
Subhumanoidal

Subhumanoidal

Well-known member
#27
Sep 17, 2018
4,053
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#27
mlssufan01 said:
2 Now Abram was very rich in livestock, in silver, and in gold. 3 And he journeyed on from the Negeb as far as Bethel to the place where his tent had been at the beginning, between Bethel and Ai, 4 to the place where he had made an altar at the first. And there Abram called upon the name of the Lord. 5 And Lot, who went with Abram, also had flocks and herds and tents, 6 so that the land could not support both of them dwelling together; for their possessions were so great that they could not dwell together, 7 and there was strife between the herdsmen of Abram's livestock and the herdsmen of Lot's livestock. At that time the Canaanites and the Perizzites were dwelling in the land.
8 Then Abram said to Lot, “Let there be no strife between you and me, and between your herdsmen and my herdsmen, for we are kinsmen.[a] 9 Is not the whole land before you? Separate yourself from me. If you take the left hand, then I will go to the right, or if you take the right hand, then I will go to the left.” 10 And Lot lifted up his eyes and saw that the Jordan Valley was well watered everywhere like the garden of the Lord, like the land of Egypt, in the direction of Zoar. (This was before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.) 11 So Lot chose for himself all the Jordan Valley, and Lot journeyed east. Thus they separated from each other. 12 Abram settled in the land of Canaan, while Lot settled among the cities of the valley and moved his tent as far as Sodom.

So what we actually see here is that the herdsmen were causing strife, not Abram & Lot themselves. This was how matters were settled, and an account of events...but there is no instruction for this to be follow by Christ followers. Besides this, we don't have enough information to know what was going on between the herdsmen, we only see Abram & Lot trying to maintain their friendship by separating their employees, whom we do not know where there hearts were in relationship to the LORD.

As for Paul and Barnabas---again, we see no actual instruction for Christ followers to exemplify their behavior, this is only an account of events...not a suggested practice. When evaluating of the story is a story to show believers failures vs. where it is an instruction, keep matters consistent and always view on context. We know that Paul said divisions are sin--this is a division--so this is not permission for us to divide....at best it could be a display of grace to both believers despite their failure...but that doesn't mean division is now acceptable...as this would contradict other Scriptures.
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I never claimed it was instruction. They separated due to strife.

Good luck with your toxic friends.
 
M

mlssufan01

Member
#28
Feb 9, 2014
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#28
Subhumanoidal said:
I never claimed it was instruction. They separated due to strife.

Good luck with your toxic friends.
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My apologies, I thought it was based on the concept of "you don't have to stick around." In the case of Abram & Lot, the issue was not necessarily between believers...for one, they were Israelites, and also did not have Paul's notes on divisions, nor Christ's expounded teaching, such as Sermon on the Mount--what we see is essentially "Love your neighbor as yourself," as best as Abram & Lot could, and we don't see any strife betwen Abram & Lot specifically, but rather their employees. We are not given sufficient information as to whether or not these herdsmen were all considered true believers of God and His Word. We are not called to maintain relationship with unbelievers.

In the case of Paul & Barnabas, this one is more directly related to strife between two (technically more) believers, citing a "sharp disagreement." This disagreement was on theological grounds over the details of another believer whom they didn't know if they could trust...It does not seem we are given enough information as to whether this was a sinful act on Paul, Barnabas, or neither, and we do not have any record of reconciliation. However, Scripture interprets Scripture; and Christ taught us to "go and make things right," and we see Paul instructing churches to have "no divisions among you." Yet, we also see Paul telling us to have nothing to do with divisive people...which essentially is a division in it's own right...which gets even more confusing, but ultimately what we need to understand is that the concept of unity is commanded in the Bible. I do agree that if we have made every effort to keep unity, and the other party will not, then I suppose we would be in the right, or if the other party remains unrepentant over a sin.
But what's important here is that we ARE commanded to do everything possible to remain connected, that is God's desire. There are elements that support distancing...but they are limited, and otherwise division would be sin. Personally, I would argue all division is a sin, because even if the division was done biblically, it still resulted from sin....but that's getting on theoretical tangent.
 
O

oldethennew

Banned
#29
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
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#29
Run, don't walk -

PS. 71:1.
In You, O LORD, do I put my trust: let me never be put to confusion.
109:29.
Let mine adversaries be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their own confusion, as with a mantle.
JAMES 3:16.
For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
1COR. 14:33.
For God is not the author of confusion, but of PEACE, as in all churches of the saints.
 
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