The meaty part

[tribesman]

Confuse sanctification with justification and condition with fruit and you shall have no gospel.

 

[crossnote]

Let me see if I got it right.
Roughly,
Justification is based on a work outside ourselves (extra nos) whereas sanctification is due to a work within us.

 

[crossnote]

I would add IMHO that an essential element for 'successful' sanctification includes being continually reminded of the Gospel. Too many think well I believed the Gospel when I got saved, but NOW I'm off to the deep walk of sanctification. They soon forget from where they were hewn and their 'walk' ends in legalism.

 

[tribesman]

I would add IMHO that an essential element for 'successful' sanctification includes being continually reminded of the Gospel. Too many think well I believed the Gospel when I got saved, but I NOW I'm off to the deep walk of sanctification. They soon forget from where they were hewn and their 'walk' ends in legalism.

That is a very dangerous form of synergism. One needs to understand that all aspects of sanctification are wholly the work of God. The gospel is always the foundation, because it is the gospel message that inspires and motivates a believer to follow Christ - in faith. Belief in Christ equals belief in the gospel, which is the good news of salvation conditioned on the person and work of Jesus Christ alone. Nothing in man.

 

[Cobus]

I uderstand it this way... Justification is the REMOVAL of the PENALTY of sin... Jesus died in my place... And sanctification is the DYING to sin to be JUSTIFIED!

You see if God justify a person that does not stop sinning, God has to do it over and over again... But if God justifies a person ONCE and then give him the ability to STOP that sin, that sin is not only justified, but that person is SANCTIFIED... SET APART... from that sin... And that is how God SANCTIFY from sin.... But God does not leave it there, once that person is as pure as God wants him, then God does the most AMAZING thing... God glorifies that person with a life that needs no more justification of sanctification... God GLORIFIES that person to be HOLY AND BORN OF GOD FOREVER.

What an AWESOME God we serve....

Gad said... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Look sanctification is not mentioned in this verse.. but sanctification is part of the GLORIFICATION.... God has to MAKE CLEAN to preserve CLEAN.... I hope you understand what I am trying to say.... There can be no glorification, without justification, and there can be no justification without the calling, and there is NO CALLING if GOD does not call... So it starts with God's WORK, and it ENDS with GOD'S WORK...

 

[Cobus]

Crossnotes that is where people have it wrong.... God said expressly... THOSE THAT ENDURE TO THE END... THEY SHALL BE SAVED.... Why do people thing their salvation is at the start of their SANCTIFICATION? Dying off sin? Because too many false teachers preach this and they believe a LIE!

Salvation comes only AFTER A TIME OF ENDURING... Enduring what... The LEAD of the Holy Spirit to salvation...

 

[Abiding]

That is a very dangerous form of synergism. One needs to understand that all aspects of sanctification are wholly the work of God. The gospel is always the foundation, because it is the gospel message that inspires and motivates a believer to follow Christ - in faith. Belief in Christ equals belief in the gospel, which is the good news of salvation conditioned on the person and work of Jesus Christ alone. Nothing in man.

do you mind if i ask you what your definition is of synergism?
Also depending on your definition does it also not apply to sanctification as well as justification?

 

[Abiding]

also id like to hear the ramifications of the dangerous type of synergism

 

[Abiding]

Im not demanding anything, i just think im not on the same page alot of times
definition wise then theres needless frustriations and misunderstandings.
It the convo goes that way i can give definitions of monergism/synergism then
we can debate the incorrectness of the definitions then maybe i cant be more
informed on the debate itself

 

[tribesman]

I uderstand it this way... Justification is the REMOVAL of the PENALTY of sin... Jesus died in my place... And sanctification is the DYING to sin to be JUSTIFIED!

We are justified only by Christ's perfect obedience for us in His life, death, and resurrection.

You see if God justify a person that does not stop sinning, God has to do it over and over again... But if God justifies a person ONCE and then give him the ability to STOP that sin, that sin is not only justified, but that person is SANCTIFIED... SET APART... from that sin... And that is how God SANCTIFY from sin.... But God does not leave it there, once that person is as pure as God wants him, then God does the most AMAZING thing... God glorifies that person with a life that needs no more justification of sanctification... God GLORIFIES that person to be HOLY AND BORN OF GOD FOREVER.

Being justified/righteous before God is not the same thing as being literally and totally sin-free in and by oneself.

What an AWESOME God we serve....

Gad said... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Look sanctification is not mentioned in this verse.. but sanctification is part of the GLORIFICATION.... God has to MAKE CLEAN to preserve CLEAN.... I hope you understand what I am trying to say.... There can be no glorification, without justification, and there can be no justification without the calling, and there is NO CALLING if GOD does not call... So it starts with God's WORK, and it ENDS with GOD'S WORK...

Sanctification is part of same since it is based on the atoning blood of Christ. All the conditions for the above have been met in the person and work of Jesus Christ. If you don't understand/see this you have no gospel.

[h=3]Heb.10[/h][1] For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
[8] Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
[9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
[11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
[12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
[13] From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

[h=3]Rom.4[/h][1] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
[2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
[3] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
[4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
[6] Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
[7] Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
[8] Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin

.

 

[Abiding]

I mostly ask because i am sure i dont understand and it must be in the definition
Because if monergism is true i cant see the harm at all in any way that synergism
could be bad one bit let alone dangerous. In fact i cant see from a monergists point
of view how it could even matter.

 

[tribesman]

Crossnotes that is where people have it wrong.... God said expressly... THOSE THAT ENDURE TO THE END... THEY SHALL BE SAVED.... Why do people thing their salvation is at the start of their SANCTIFICATION? Dying off sin? Because too many false teachers preach this and they believe a LIE!

Salvation comes only AFTER A TIME OF ENDURING... Enduring what... The LEAD of the Holy Spirit to salvation...

God does preserve His Saints for ever.

[h=3]Ps.37[/h][28] For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

[h=3]Heb.7[/h][25] Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
[26] For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

[h=3]Jude.1[/h][24] Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
[25] To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[crossnote]

That is a very dangerous form of synergism. One needs to understand that all aspects of sanctification are wholly the work of God. The gospel is always the foundation, because it is the gospel message that inspires and motivates a believer to follow Christ - in faith. Belief in Christ equals belief in the gospel, which is the good news of salvation conditioned on the person and work of Jesus Christ alone. Nothing in man.

Synergism, let's see, where God and man cooperate. I don't see it in my example. I was only pointing out the danger of leaving behind the Gospel message in our pursuit of holiness (sanctification).

 

[crossnote]

Crossnotes that is where people have it wrong.... God said expressly... THOSE THAT ENDURE TO THE END... THEY SHALL BE SAVED.... Why do people thing their salvation is at the start of their SANCTIFICATION? Dying off sin? Because too many false teachers preach this and they believe a LIE!

Salvation comes only AFTER A TIME OF ENDURING... Enduring what... The LEAD of the Holy Spirit to salvation...

Study Ephesians.

We first are sitting (at rest)with Christ in the heavenlies...
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
(Eph 2:6)

then we learn to walk...
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
(Eph 4:1)

You seem to put our walk before we learn our rest/position in Him.

 

[tribesman]

Synergism, let's see, where God and man cooperate. I don't see it in my example. I was only pointing out the danger of leaving behind the Gospel message in our pursuit of holiness (sanctification).

I hear you. There is a difference between legalism and synergism.

However, both end up in basically the same road with having people setting their hope to be accepted because of their obedience or performance, having the conditions for attaining and maintaining salvation in themselves, man contributing with his "part" to be worthy to receive or merit salvation.

Needless to say I have no other definition of synergism than what is commonly known and accepted when speaking about such in the theological field.

 

[Abiding]

"theological field" is that behind Wallmart?

 

[tribesman]

Abiding
Senior Member

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[mark54]

It is true that upon asking Christ into your life as lord and Saviour you are immediastely justified. If you die the next day you go to Heaven.
However, there is a justification Paul speaks of that we seek in Christ, once we have come and accepted Christ as our Lord and Saviour. We come as slaves to sin, but we have to be changed into slaves of righteousness, and this happens Paul tells the Romans by following the form of teaching to which they were entrusted(Rom6:16&17)
There are some sins which have to be dealt with, no one will be perfect in the flesh on this earth, but the new convert seeks to be justified in respoect of being contrlolled by sin(sin being their master) to a place where they can be slaves of righteousness

IE, a person accepts Christ into tjheir life as Lord and Saviour, they are an alcoholic. The alcoholic is not told their instant justification is at risk if the drinking does not immediately cease, but at the same time it is not possible for them to get drunk every day for the rest of their life now they have had initial justification in Christ. So there are sins that have to be dealt with if the Christian is to cross over from being a slave of sin unto a slave of righteousness, Paul speaks of this in the following

If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotwes sin?
Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker
Gal2:16&17
Paul is speaking of us seeking justification by faith in Christ, not striving to obey the law, in respect of laying off the sins which by their very naturee stop a person crossing over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness
But this process and the ongoing sanctification is by faith in Christ, and the Holy Spirit who sanctifies us,(Rom15:16) and this is a process that continues the whole of our lives

 

[pickles]

Confuse sanctification with justification and condition with fruit and you shall have no gospel.

Ok, before I say anything, please understand that this thread is a bear to people with dislexia, so please be patient with my mistakes.
Santification is set upon us because of the blood of Jesus.
Justifcation is faith, lived and the work of faith.
Fruit is the result of that which is given through one who is grafted in Jesus.
and then rince repeat.

God bless
pickles

 

[Abiding]

Abiding
Senior Member

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tribesman

I understand. IF we get definitions strait and then apply scripture.
Less bullying can be done. Very well who needs unity? Yuk!