study - Olivet Discourse

[GRA]

Past, present and future would all be correct.

'past' => "it has come and gone" - the end of it is in our past

'present' => "we are in it now" - the start of it is in our past and the end of it is in our future

'future' => "it has not yet begun" - the start of it is in our future



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[GRA]

It seems that we are in the Great Tribulation period now - which begins (row 17) just after the abomination of desolation (row 16) and continues until "the end" (row 20).

I know that people are not used to thinking about the Great Tribulation as being lengthy. However, this is the only conclusion I have been able to determine that actually makes sense with regard to the details...



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[nathan3]

I know that people are not used to thinking about the Great Tribulation as being lengthy. However, this is the only conclusion I have been able to determine that actually makes sense with regard to the details...

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The tribulation of Antichrist was shorted from 3 and a half years, to 5 months. at the end of the five months, the two witnesses will be killed., 3 and a half days later they are raised and the real Christ returns. -( Revelation 11:3-19 )

The time it was originally : Revelation 13:5 - three an a half years , the equivalent of 42 months.

Christ stating He shorted in for the Elects sake: Mark 13:20

And how long Satan's reign was shortened to : Revelation 9:5

This scriptures states how he knows he has a short time to deceive; the world: Revelation 12:12

 

[GRA]

nathan3:

In what span of time would you place "the times of the Gentiles" ... ?

Is it a long period of time or is it a short period of time?

Is it past, present, or future?

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Please explain Luke 21:24 in light of the fact that the things which it describes occur after the Great Tribulation begins...



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[nathan3]

Please explain Luke 21:24 in light of the fact that the things which it describes occur after the Great Tribulation begins...



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24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Not sure what this is refering to. YET. but i will its taking time to study, but we have to keep it where it belongs for now and not run off the cliff because of it. Don't lose the other scriptures because one is not understood, but I think Daniel mentions this. And I think Daniel connects that to Satan. and his reign . But I dont know for sure yet.

What i do, know is what i posted about how long it will be how long it was and thats it. That has to be considered.

 

[GRA]

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Not sure what this is refering to. YET. but i will its taking time to study, but we have to keep it where it belongs for now and not run off the cliff because of it. Don't lose the other scriptures because one is not understood, but I think Daniel mentions this. And I think Daniel connects that to Satan. and his reign . But I dont know for sure yet.

What i do, know is what i posted about how long it will be how long it was and thats it. That has to be considered.

When you do discover what this verse is referring to, you will realize that it has already happened...

Otherwise, the "times of the Gentiles'' is just a very short span of time at the very end of all things right before Christ comes back - right?

Nothing like this is supposed to happen to the Jews (after 1948) until Armageddon - right?

What happens at Armageddon does not include 'shall be led away captive into all nations'...

I never said that I did not know what it was referring to - I just want you to ''study it out" until you come to a conclusion of your own. When you have an answer for these questions, we can continue our discussion:

In what span of time would you place "the times of the Gentiles" ... ?

Is it a long period of time or is it a short period of time?

Is it past, present, or future?

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[GRA]

The abomination starts the tribulation. Which ends with the return of Christ.

With regard to 'timing'...

Correct.

One thing that seems to be very clear is, when it begins and when it ends.



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[GRA]

With regard to 'timing'...

Correct.

One thing that seems to be very clear is, when it begins and when it ends.



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With regard to 'order of events' - not 'specific point in time'...



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[GRA]

1) I see no reason why row 5,6 and 7 can't be referring to time of Christ's crucifiction to 70AD for if you read the Historians of the 1st century you can make a case that all these things could be fulfilled.

Please note in the comments column where I stated:

( Note the phrase "But before all these" in Luke. )

2) The context of the olivet discourse is overwhelming circumstancial within the period between Christ and 70AD and not universal:

The context of the olivet discourse is overwhelmingly from sometime before 70AD to the second coming of Christ.

a. straight from the beginning with the temple references and come end of the age (old covenant, Jewish cultural and religious practices which was the focal point of Jewish life). The KJV I believe does this passage no justice by translating "world" for "age" with all copies of the original manuscripts use "aion".

Interestingly, the temple is not specifically mentioned again after the initial statement by Jesus about every stone being thrown down.

b. 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. This is all circumstancial, and doesn't apply to us today.

This is related to the abomination of desolation - which is determined in this study (so far) to be around 70 A.D. before the destruction of the temple.

c. 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. I believe this be both a reference to Christ coming in Judgment against apostate Israel, and well as Christ ascension depicting Christ of taking the reigns of His Kingdom and dominion. The Lord coming on clouds is used throught the OT in reference to both judgment of nations and His ascension, and we must ignore that we need to interpret scripture with scripture to understand the full meaning of this.

This is associated with the second coming of Christ - as is every place in the scriptures that describes Christ coming in/with clouds.

It has nothing to do with His ascension.

d. 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
Jesus says that ALL this things will take place in "this" generation, and by no means will that "general generation" pass away, die, before All these events take place. Curtainly you can say that this could be circumstancial to the 1 century Christians.

I believe that the phrase 'this generation' is referring to the generation of people who ''see all these things"...

Hebrews 10:25, "25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching." What day? Who was the writer of Hebrews addressing? Wouldn't it make sense that during this time of the 1st century church and the major persecution that they faced, that sticking together and helping each other out is more beneficial then to Christians, then in times of minor persecution? (I'm not saying that this doesn't have application for us today).

What day? The second coming of Christ, of course...



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[GRA]

Great stuff GRA. I look forward to checking it out more in depth later.

Are you still "looking forward"...?



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[GRA]

I think Luke 17:21-37 is also worth considering. It speaks much of the same language. You may have it somewhere in your chart and overlooked, or have a particular reason for not using it. I just see it as part of the same, though it has to do with a question from the Pharisees rather than the disciples.

There is a lot of scripture that "comes into play" and needs to be considered when examining the 'End-Times Scenario' - not the least of which is the book of Revelation; however, this particular study is intended to be focused on the Olivet Discourse itself (at least, as the initial and central part of it) - which is why the three written accounts of it by the three different authors are the only thing in the chart. The discussion, of course, may venture out to any and all relevant scripture. The scope of this thread is all that lies within the confines of the subject matter of the Olivet Discourse. The use of the chart is to both combine and compare the three different accounts...



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[GRA]

I have attached to this post copies of the actual 'html' and 'css' files used to build the chart for this study. The original names of the files:

Olivet_Discourse.html
GRA.css

I renamed 'GRA.css' to 'GRA.txt' so that it could be attached. After downloading it, you should rename it back to 'GRA.css'.

Place the 'css' file one directory above the 'html' file -- or -- edit the 'html' file and remove '../' from the '@import' line at the top of the file.

Then, open / view the 'html' file with your browser.



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[zone]

thx GRA!....

 

[GRA]

In the olivet discourse, Jesus describes future events in a non-linear order.

The order of these events may be determined almost entirely from the "grammar of the language" of the passages of scripture.

Perhaps the first especially-useful thing to understand about the olivet discourse is:

The context of the olivet discourse is overwhelmingly from sometime before 70AD to the second coming of Christ.

For the moment, let's ignore the date 70 A.D. and consider only the association and order of events.

I believe that it can be easily established without dispute that the 'great tribulation' referred to in row 17 begins at or just after the 'abomination of desolation' referred to in row 16.

I also believe that it can be easily established without dispute that the implied end of this same tribulation in row 20 occurs not-too-long before the return of Christ, described in row 21.

So then, thus far we have - the 'great tribulation' begins ~ 'abomination of desolation' and ends ~ 'the second coming of Christ'.

Now, we know "absolutely for certain" that the second coming of Christ is yet in our future.

So, that leaves the question 'When did / does the abomination of desolation occur?'.

While keeping the following in mind:

Please explain Luke 21:24 in light of the fact that the things which it describes occur after the Great Tribulation begins...

In what span of time would you place "the times of the Gentiles" ... ?

Is it a long period of time or is it a short period of time?

Is it past, present, or future?

"What think ye?"

 

[GRA]

**** BUMP ****

 

[GRA]

In the olivet discourse, Jesus describes future events in a non-linear order.

The order of these events may be determined almost entirely from the "grammar of the language" of the passages of scripture.

Do you understand what I am saying? (in the quote above)

The order of events defined in the 'Chronological Order' chart (the small chart placed after the large chart) may be determined almost entirely based on the way the passages are written.

"Pay close attention to the grammar and the wording. Try to 'listen' ONLY to the passages of scripture -- what is it telling you?"

"What think ye?"

 

[GRA]

Agreed. not to mention the fact that in 70 AD, there was no possibility of tribulation being so great that "all flesh" could be wiped out, bring about about the need for Christ to return, or all flesh would not survive.

UNLESS the tribulation period coincides with "the times of the Gentiles" - from before 70 A.D. until the Second Coming of Christ ≈ 2000 years

'the times of the Gentiles' => "the span of time from the end of 'the 70 weeks of Daniel' (Daniel 9:24) until the Second Coming of Christ"

"Thought for the day..."

 

[GRA]

**** BUMP ****

 

[GRA]

thx GRA!....

YW zone!

Find anything interesting in there yet?

 

[EBenjamin]

This thread is dedicated to a study on the Olivet Discourse. This chart is the centerpiece of the study. It is a work in progress. I am posting it now to give you a "preview" of it so you can "look it over" and see what you might conclude...

I will try to update the chart with new information as I am able.

The chart is too large to insert in the post. Please just use the link above and open it in a new window.

As is normal for a thread in this forum - comments are welcome...



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Im sorry but i have tried manually copy and past clicking the link and even trying to go to the root domain and navigate from there and it keep getting an error that the page can not be found even just grasptruth.org cant be found is anyone else having this issue?