God's freewill vs. Mankind's election

[eternally-gratefull]

No ad hominem at all. I just used your own rhetoric. You say that people follow "men" and their interpretation. But you are also a man and have the same Bible as us all, and you also have to make an interpretation. So we're on equal terms, OK?

lol, there is a HUGE difference between following men (doctrines written over 10000 years ago) And saying this is what I believe in a discussion forum. and trying to discuss it..

Now, I asked how you can squeeze in "the whole world" in Romans 1. Do you mean that what Paul describes there is an universal address? This is how all men are?

Can I ask you how else one would interpret it? Also. do not forget eph 4. Where paul tells us men (which men) blind themselves in ignorance (not they type we think of, but the knowing and yet hiding it in their heart) You know. The very thing Paul is telling them, and us, not to go back to??

 

[PS]

Hello EG. What do you understand the difference to be between trust and faith?

Also their origin.

Thanking you in advance.

 

[Abiding]

Well, a condition in this setting is something someone has to fulfil, either you or another person. In this case another person has fulfilled the condition. An instrument is in this setting a means or a tool wherewith you receive this something. In this case what this person has fulfilled. It is charged to your account.

As for Heb.11:6, you might want to stress "he who comes to God". This scripture must of course be understood in the light of all other scriptures that talk about what it takes for man to come to God. It cannot collide with these scriptures, but must fully harmonize with them.

So, what did Jesus teach about what it takes to come to Him and how it happens? Does it look much like it is within the reach of possibility for each and every man if he just wills it?

I agree, the condition isnt changed by the stated mechanics of the condition. Im just using your words
to explain. Why would any creed state an obvious thing like an act of the will? The elders of the early
church over and over talked of mans free will vrs forms of gnosticism.

But as far as harmony, im not seeing that it would change hebrews 11:6 unless we put our doctrine
ahead of the text as some do. For instance what is the difference between hebrews 11:6 and the
parables of the kingdom? like the lost coin etc. seek, knock, ask...etc one could glean much to see
harmony between Jesus words and heb 11:6. So faith is not passive and IS something to fulfill.
Thats how i see it. When the man with the withered hand obeyed then both worked out.(both meaning the mans act and Gods power)
He didnt receive wholeness then stretch forth his hand as would be your model. He obeyed by faith
just like heb 11:6.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hello EG. What do you understand the difference to be between trust and faith?

Also their origin.

Thanking you in advance.

trust is faith. I can believe something and not trust it. This is mere belief, It is when we are assured through trust, that our belief rises to faith.

The origin is the person, place or thing you are trusting in.

 

[Abiding]

The earliest creeds didn't contain as much as the later ones...that doesn't mean that beliefs were "added" by way of changing beliefs...the necessity to expound on some things came as different parties disputed what was already believed. The deity of Christ and the Trinity were early disputed by sectarians, thus the need to reiterate and underline what was the accepted and received doctrine.



When and how is "free will" mentioned in these creeds and confessions?

And, when or if "free will" is spoken of by the early fathers, do you just assume that it would be understood the same way that say arminianism would define same?

There was no need in the earlier creeds to state free will. Noone doubted that.

Depends what definition you have of an arminian. Im not so much in line with any party as of now
maybe more lutheran whatever. Im not too much in love with calvinism as you can see, at least 5 pt'ers
then again what other kind are there? Its all much removed from Calvin in many ways according to what
ive read in the institutes.

Ill repeat. Regenertion before belief is not biblical. The order is believe, repent, then regeneration.
The atonement was for all men. Men aided by God to accept or reject. Their nature doesn hinder things
their will does. And that harmonizes all of what Jesus said.

 

[Abiding]

A bit off-topic but .... whatcha think Abiding ? Are you throwing your hat into the ring ??

View attachment 40109

I think ill go more towards the greek laymen type...it fits in the pickup better

 

[PS]

trust is faith. I can believe something and not trust it. This is mere belief, It is when we are assured through trust, that our belief rises to faith.

The origin is the person, place or thing you are trusting in.

Are you saying the ice skaters faith is given to them by the ice on the pond?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Are you saying the ice skaters faith is given to them by the ice on the pond?

They must trust the ice is thick enough do they not? they must trust the skates they where, and their own ability to skate.. and they lean to trust more the more they do.

What does this have to do with trusting in Christ?

 

[zone]

so, i read some on a baptist website about faith not being a gift.
there was some compelling exegesis for that.
not one time did it ever occur to me that my faith was not a gift from God.
all i know is one day i didn't have any faith and later that same day i did.
apparently i've been thanking God all this time for my faith in Jesus, when it actually came from me.
i hope He wasn't offended.

i'm not by any means finished studying the matter though.

 

[PS]

They must trust the ice is thick enough do they not? they must trust the skates they where, and their own ability to skate.. and they lean to trust more the more they do.

What does this have to do with trusting in Christ?

You have answered it when you speak of our own ability, and learning to trust.

What we must do is step out in faith like an ice skater who steps out onto the ice. The further on that we go, the greater our faith becomes, but this is a result of us living the Christian life experimentally when we come to God in faith.

We step out in our own faith of our own accord, and God in His Grace reaches out to us and saves us from eternal danger.

But initially it starts out with us trusting Him and our faith begins with us. I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

 

[PS]

so, i read some on a baptist website about faith not being a gift.
there was some compelling exegesis for that.
not one time did it ever occur to me that my faith was not a gift from God.
all i know is one day i didn't have any faith and later that same day i did.
apparently i've been thanking God all this time for my faith in Jesus, when it actually came from me.
i hope He wasn't offended.

i'm not by any means finished studying the matter though.

That would be a joining together of your faith with God's Grace, which is a lovely testimony.

 

[zone]

That would be a joining together of your faith with God's Grace, which is a lovely testimony.

well, thanks. it's a lovely testimony indeed.
it's been a long time since He saved me...and i've never thought about me having done anything at all.
as i said i just one day believed.
i knew at the time it wasn't my doing.
so perhaps the joining of my faith was something overshadowed by His Grace and Presence and Love.
i guess i never noticed.

but i'm by no means through with my study.

 

[PS]

well, thanks. it's a lovely testimony indeed.
it's been a long time since He saved me...and i've never thought about me having done anything at all.
as i said i just one day believed.
i knew at the time it wasn't my doing.
so perhaps the joining of my faith was something overshadowed by His Grace and Presence and Love.
i guess i never noticed.

but i'm by no means through with my study.

God bless in your study. I like to think the joining together like that is when we are born again.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

so, i read some on a baptist website about faith not being a gift.
there was some compelling exegesis for that.
not one time did it ever occur to me that my faith was not a gift from God.
all i know is one day i didn't have any faith and later that same day i did.
apparently i've been thanking God all this time for my faith in Jesus, when it actually came from me.
i hope He wasn't offended.

i'm not by any means finished studying the matter though.

I never knew any baptist that did not think faith was a gift. so not sure what baptist you looked at.

As for faith all of a sudden coming when it was not there. Sorry, I can not believe there was a matter of time when you contemplated Gods truth, Took time to learn it and made a decision based on all the evidence.

You did not just go from nothing to faith in one second. It does not work that way.

ps. How could your faith come from you? Did you do something to earn your salvation? For only then could your faith come from you. If your trusting Christ completely based on His word, His gospel, And his work. Your faith did not come from you, it came from him,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You have answered it when you speak of our own ability, and learning to trust.

What we must do is step out in faith like an ice skater who steps out onto the ice. The further on that we go, the greater our faith becomes, but this is a result of us living the Christian life experimentally when we come to God in faith.

We step out in our own faith of our own accord, and God in His Grace reaches out to us and saves us from eternal danger.

But initially it starts out with us trusting Him and our faith begins with us. I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

Yes I do. But remember, God did all the work. It takes total humility and emptying self will to trust God.. Thus as Jesus said, it is HIS work that we trust him.

But yes, we do have to make that choice.

 

[zone]

God bless in your study. I like to think the joining together like that is when we are born again.

well, of course it is
and was.
what i am saying is that apparently my faith was not a gift from God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

well, of course it is
and was.
what i am saying is that apparently my faith was not a gift from God.

Of course it was. Unless your trusting in self. If your trusting in the work of God,, the gift is what gave you faith.

 

[zone]

I never knew any baptist that did not think faith was a gift. so not sure what baptist you looked at.

when i'm finished reading the site i'll post it.

As for faith all of a sudden coming when it was not there. Sorry, I can not believe there was a matter of time when you contemplated Gods truth, Took time to learn it and made a decision based on all the evidence.

now i'm confused.
i'll have to go back and see yesterday's posts.

You did not just go from nothing to faith in one second. It does not work that way.

again, i'm confused.
how does it work then?

ps. How could your faith come from you? Did you do something to earn your salvation? For only then could your faith come from you. If your trusting Christ completely based on His word, His gospel, And his work. Your faith did not come from you, it came from him,

well EG...as i said, i'll have to go back and read yesterday's posts.
because some of them clearly said faith is not a gift.
and the baptist writings i read agreed.

the subject was monergism. that was what was trying to express yesterday.

 

[zone]

Of course it was. Unless your trusting in self. If your trusting in the work of God,, the gift is what gave you faith.

well, in the last post, you pretty much said you don't believe what i myself am saying about my own conversion.
i had assumed [my] faith was a gift from God.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

i believed this entire string was all one gift. but the baptist exegete said faith is not included in that list as a gift.

again, i'll say, that in one single day i held a bible in my hands and opened it, and in the very same day i had faith and believed, and have never since not believed (had faith) whereas before (to my knowledge) i had none.
i was blind.

so, i naturally assumed the faith i had was a gift from God.

when i posted a lengthy definition of pistis yesterday, you said it was wrong - my version (from Strong's) said faith was always a gift from God, never something generated by men. i thought (i must be mistaken) you (and others) were disagreeing with that.

now i must not have this straight, so i'll go back and read yesterday's posts.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

when i'm finished reading the site i'll post it.

remember, there are many types of baptists, and they all do not believe the same.

now i'm confused.
i'll have to go back and see yesterday's posts.

Now I am confused.. lol

again, i'm confused.
how does it work then?

why are you confused? No one I have ever met went from not hearing about God. knowing about God, and given time to contemplate what they have heard and learned to all of a sudden having complete faith in him. Are you saying this happened to you?

well EG...as i said, i'll have to go back and read yesterday's posts.
because some of them clearly said faith is not a gift.

What does this have to do with what I said. Again I am confused. Faith being a gift or not would nto answer what I said to you.

Again, Are you trusting self in any way, or trusting completely in God?