God's freewill vs. Mankind's election

[zone]

Is your new name Skinski? He does this, and I do not respond, Why do you think I would for you?

Posting a bunch of verses does not prove anything, I can make almost any verse in the bible mean anything I want when taken alone.. You will need to do better than this.

wow....that is harsh.
skinski? are you serious EG?

btw - i've seen some of your posts and threads go on for miles....i read them to try to understand you EG.
if you don't want to interact with diggs' passages just say so.

come on...what up here?

 

[zone]

Twice today youve asked me to start a thread. Just from a post i made

Jimmy you just threw up many verses out of their contexts
that doesnt help one bit. Pushing election deserves better.
Theres much more to it.

because you said election deserves better and there's much more to it.

this one is

Re: God's freewill vs. Mankind's election

what i meant was just a straight-up thread on election...leave the freewill VS debate thing out....that was the suggestion.

election - in context, showing how there's much more to it.
so far you haven't done that.

it was a sincere suggestion...to move away from the VERSUS debate. because i want to know what you see that i don't.

The corridors of time is just starting to be a cliche.
Im ok that you use it. but it isnt going to be understandable to many.

Tell me if im right. What you mean by it is to say that when the bible
ever mentions Gods foreknowledge...it isnt talking about decisions He made
based on future events.

"decisions He made based on future events"?

yeah...i guess i'm wondering about that also.

no more cliches then.

anyways.....i don't see a thorough exegesis from you yet....though you are suggesting you can do it.
so i will wait. because if i'm wrong (and i likely am), i want to correct my course.
and i'll repent and confess it if i am.

i want to align with what the Word says.

 

[Abiding]

Ok since i think i see emotions involved maybe that will help.
I have an honest question.

It may be a question old as the hills but ive never asked it.
In light of all we have in the bible about God doing His good pleasure and will: which im all for.
And the fact He alone elects: which again im all for.
And the fact He hardens whom he chooses and has mercy on whom He chooses: again amen to that.

Why? do some think if God wanted all men to be saved, yet left it up to them...even tho He offers
salvation and does it to all.....that that somehow makes Him a small God?
That that would bring Him down lower than a man.

Where does this logic come from....and i know its not just some that say this
this is one of the main reasons for limited atonement.

 

[zone]

The spin in eph 2:8 is needed for limited atonement.

But the thing is the way they contextualize faith there and surely its not in the greater context for example

Ephesians 1:12-13


[SUP]12 [/SUP]That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

which has time marks which are ignored, faith isnt even used in its fuller meaning for example

Hebrews 11:6


[SUP]6 [/SUP]But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The spin in eph 2:8 is needed for limited atonement.
But the thing is the way they contextualize faith there and surely its not in the greater context for example
which has time marks which are ignored, faith isnt even used in its fuller meaning for example

i guess it would be these three things i wish were expanded on.

(though i don't care about the Limited Atonement thing much since its a misnomer anyways).
this thread doesn't have Calvin's name in it, so why is Limited Atonement the big issue?

maybe just these two:

"But the thing is the way they contextualize faith there and surely its not in the greater context for example"
"which has time marks which are ignored, faith isnt even used in its fuller meaning for example"

 

[Abiding]

because you said election deserves better and there's much more to it.

this one is

Re: God's freewill vs. Mankind's election

what i meant was just a straight-up thread on election...leave the freewill VS debate thing out....that was the suggestion.

election - in context, showing how there's much more to it.
so far you haven't done that.

it was a sincere suggestion...to move away from the VERSUS debate. because i want to know what you see that i don't.



"decisions He made based on future events"?

yeah...i guess i'm wondering about that also.

no more cliches then.

anyways.....i don't see a thorough exegesis from you yet....though you are suggesting you can do it.
so i will wait. because if i'm wrong (and i likely am), i want to correct my course.
and i'll repent and confess it if i am.

i want to align with what the Word says.

Oh stop it. First i really dont find you sincere. Like im going to correct you.
a thorough exegesis on what?

 

[tribesman]

..Most of what I believe now I got from what I studied.

I grew up an avid baptist and dispensationalist. It was not listening to men which caused me to change it was studying what it was I was taught that got me to believe what I believe.

You do well in studying the Bible to see if what you have been taught is correct and be ready to change your views if convinced by evidence from scripture. We all should do so. However, as our teachers may be limited in their understanding of scripture we also are. Scripture makes little room for "new" interpretation, at least when it comes to the meaty and foundational issues. Thing is that those who want to have a "unique" interpretation also ends up there with problems. And they're also men. I find it plausible to study church history and see what my fathers in the faith taught of old, what their struggles were and what caused divisions and apostasies.

A fundamentalist of the "read the Bible as it is written only" or "me and the Bible alone" stock have huge problems with this as well as with any systematical approach to scripture. These fundies are still but mere men. Their arguments against "traditions" makes no sense, since they, too, create traditions by way of their attitude. Traditions that they expect their people to follow. Don't get me wrong, I love many of the Indie Fundie Baptist people and similar, its just that their take on hermeneutics is rather chaotic.

Arminians fight Osas not because they want actually study it, they do it because they are so anti-calvin they would nbot agree with even one point.. So why study? they say calvanism teaches easy believism. so we all must'

Well...there are not a few arminians who are very learned about calvinism...and some of them are also former calvinists. Not all of them says calvinism proper teaches easy believeism, they just still cling to their arminian views anyway.

You yourself do this with pre-millinialism.. You always state I believe this, because you have learned a doctrine which says we all believe this, thus I must.

I just wondered where you got your belief from...shall I take it that your position on that is what you have found through personal studies, not what you have been taught in your church?

that is the danger of studying and picking a doctrine or belief, and not trying to see truth. Alot of non denoms are non denoms, because no one actually believes everything one denomination teaches.. so why chose to pick on or the other?

yes.. this is the problem.. It is subjective if we study doctrines, it makes us pre-biased to follow a man made doctrine, and not look at what scripture says.. As I showed above

I think one must differ personal belief from common faith. Our common faith is expressed in the confession. The confession builds upon older confessions which all are traced back to the first christian community. If you want a belief system totally free of "man's hand", then you must consequently stop trying to make sense of what you read in the Bible. However, that is not possible, since you have to do the work of interpreting scripture anyway...there's no way around it. And, lo, you're also a man.

 

[zone]

Ok since i think i see emotions involved maybe that will help.
I have an honest question.

It may be a question old as the hills but ive never asked it.
In light of all we have in the bible about God doing His good pleasure and will: which im all for.
And the fact He alone elects: which again im all for.
And the fact He hardens whom he chooses and has mercy on whom He chooses: again amen to that.

Why? do some think if God wanted all men to be saved, yet left it up to them...even tho He offers
salvation and does it to all.....that that somehow makes Him a small God?
That that would bring Him down lower than a man.

Where does this logic come from....and i know its not just some that say this
this is one of the main reasons for limited atonement.

Why? do some think if God wanted all men to be saved, yet left it up to them...even tho He offers
salvation and does it to all.....that that somehow makes Him a small God?
That that would bring Him down lower than a man.

Where does this logic come from....and i know its not just some that say this
this is one of the main reasons for limited atonement.

In light of all we have in the bible about God doing His good pleasure and will: which im all for.
And the fact He alone elects: which again im all for.
And the fact He hardens whom he chooses and has mercy on whom He chooses: again amen to that.

i don't understand the question.

but this seems to be about Limited Atonement.
which is a complete misnomer.

in spite of all this:

In light of all we have in the bible about God doing His good pleasure and will: which im all for.
And the fact He alone elects: which again im all for.
And the fact He hardens whom he chooses and has mercy on whom He chooses: again amen to that.

so i'm out.
for now....til something gets posted that makes any more sense than what we already have.

i'm happy to be a Lutheran.

 

[Abiding]

The spin in eph 2:8 is needed for limited atonement.
But the thing is the way they contextualize faith there and surely its not in the greater context for example
which has time marks which are ignored, faith isnt even used in its fuller meaning for example

i guess it would be these three things i wish were expanded on.

(though i don't care about the Limited Atonement thing much since its a misnomer anyways).
this thread doesn't have Calvin's name in it, so why is Limited Atonement the big issue?

maybe just these two:

"But the thing is the way they contextualize faith there and surely its not in the greater context for example"
"which has time marks which are ignored, faith isnt even used in its fuller meaning for example"

Although ill admit i didnt write very well on that post. Ill try to say it again
because i dont understand what your questioning.

Ok Eph 2:8 (im fine with leaving calvinism/limited atonement out of it) its been explained by some
that faith is a fruit of regeneration and not a cause of it. Which i dont agree with, nor agree thats
what the verse is saying. So:

Then i gave the verses early on in the letter which showed faith preceeded regeneration.
So what was the question again?

 

[Abiding]

i don't understand the question.

but this seems to be about Limited Atonement.
which is a complete misnomer.

in spite of all this:

In light of all we have in the bible about God doing His good pleasure and will: which im all for.
And the fact He alone elects: which again im all for.
And the fact He hardens whom he chooses and has mercy on whom He chooses: again amen to that.

so i'm out.
for now....til something gets posted that makes any more sense than what we already have.

i'm happy to be a Lutheran.

your out? when were you in?

 

[zone]

Although ill admit i didnt write very well on that post. Ill try to say it again
because i dont understand what your questioning.

Ok Eph 2:8 (im fine with leaving calvinism/limited atonement out of it) its been explained by some
that faith is a fruit of regeneration and not a cause of it. Which i dont agree with, nor agree thats
what the verse is saying. So:

Then i gave the verses early on in the letter which showed faith preceeded regeneration.
So what was the question again?

i guess my question is....is faith a gift?

 

[zone]

your out? when were you in?

well, i do talk to myself sometimes.
come on Mike.

 

[tribesman]

...Contrary to this knowledge, you have a man forgiven of his sin and made right, before he has faith.. which is against scripture.

Not at all against scripture, only against your understanding of same:

Eph.2

[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved; )
[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

God didn't have to wait for us to "do our part" in order to justify us. He didn't have to wait for us to use some "ability" to profess faith. He did all this work while we were still dead in our sins. Regeneration equals being resurrected, that is being raised from the dead. It is all a work in Christ Jesus, for His people. Faith being the instrument - NOT condition - where this gift is received.

This is amazing grace!

 

[BarlyGurl]

i guess my question is....is faith a gift?

Faith --- NO
every time you flip a light switch you are using faith... don't you beleive the light will go on or off? Where did you learn that? By some means of reasoning power you have learned that the light switch operates electricity to open ans close the light circuit.
Just as hearing the gospel and believing it... operates the switch to open our circuit to God

 

[Abiding]

i guess my question is....is faith a gift?

Eph 2:8 is talking about the gift of salvation. and also tells how it was received.
And that it wasnt by works. Spin it how you like ...everyone does ya know.

 

[tribesman]

lol.. We are saved by faith not works.. Faith is apposed to works. not grace, grace is given to those who work also. It is just grace given to them can not save them.

Who said faith was a work of me? Your the one saying this because your following a doctrine of men. Faith is not my work unless I trust self. Can you prove I am trusting self when I God saved by faith alone?? if you can;t your whole argument is destroyed.

We are saved by grace - through faith. Even if you say faith is not a work, you still imply that it is a condition that must be fulfilled IN YOU before God is able to save you. This means you do not believe that all conditions to save you were already fulfilled in Christ Jesus. There's no other conclusion to draw from this.

I side with scripture which says that God bestows this great mercy on us while we are yet dead, we are but passive receivers of an undeserved pardon. As shown many times, we are first quickened from death unto life, then after that follows fruit such as faith and repentance et al.

You can't believe unless you're one of His sheep. You don't choose to be a sheep. You don't have that power of creation - but God has.

 

[BarlyGurl]

We are saved by grace - through faith. Even if you say faith is not a work, you still imply that it is a condition that must be fulfilled IN YOU before God is able to save you. This means you do not believe that all conditions to save you were already fulfilled in Christ Jesus. There's no other conclusion to draw from this. I side with scripture which says that God bestows this great mercy on us while we are yet dead, we are but passive receivers of an undeserved pardon. As shown many times, we are first quickened from death unto life, then after that follows fruit such as faith and repentance et al. You can't believe unless you're one of His sheep. You don't choose to be a sheep. You don't have that power of creation - but God has.

I see you went to the police station a picked up your package...

 

[Abiding]

zone i made several posts...i posted a bit from Hebrews 11
faith in different contexts are pretty well explained there
and thats my understanding of faith in a general sense.

Its gets deeper some in different ways in the gospels.
but all good things come from above and are gifts if
we stay very general. But in some usages it is merely
an action based on trusting Gods word.

 

[Abiding]

well, i do talk to myself sometimes.
come on Mike.

yes and you also cut up my posts.
and change the order. Ive asked you to stop.

 

[Abiding]

Not at all against scripture, only against your understanding of same:



God didn't have to wait for us to "do our part" in order to justify us. He didn't have to wait for us to use some "ability" to profess faith. He did all this work while we were still dead in our sins. Regeneration equals being resurrected, that is being raised from the dead. It is all a work in Christ Jesus, for His people. Faith being the instrument - NOT condition - where this gift is received.

This is amazing grace!

Whats the difference between the instrument and a condition?

And how does it compare to:

Hebrews 11:6


[SUP]6 [/SUP]But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

And how could this be if faith comes after regeneration? when it would not only contridict
Hebrews it wouldnt seem to even be necessary.

 

[zone]

Eph 2:8 is talking about the gift of salvation. and also tells how it was received.
And that it wasnt by works. Spin it how you like ...everyone does ya know.

everyone spins it how they like?
does everyone means everyone?

alright.
i'll take some time and consider that faith is not a gift from God.