God's freewill vs. Mankind's election

[zone]

zone said (in black) ..agreed repentance involves 'work'...and this: "requires the intellect and reasoning power before the will engages" < yup.

can you expand on this at all? i know this is just discussion...but me thinks you are on to something. I will try, I have touched on the principals in other threads... I will try to articulate a fuller response now.

since the will is not engaged [inclined?] naturally toward God;
the intellect and reasoning power is needed before the will engages;
and opportunity to repent is gift;

is the intellect and reasoning power engaged [inclined?] naturally toward God? I want to make a distinction here. The intellect and reasoning power IS naturally inclined toward a god, but not THE GOD. The scripture reveals this in a myriad of ways... 1) we are created in the image of God, Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." God has (supreme) intellect, reasoning power and freewill... free will in that God is only limited by the constrains he has put on himself.. sometimes God's "hands are tied" but that is due to his supreme TRUTH character that he not ever contradict himself or lie. Adam had free will... Genesis 3:[SUP]17 [/SUP]To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it, What was his sin? Doing what eve said instead of doing what God said... that is a CHOICE... and God makes that very clear in his chastening of Adam. So I am not sure how anyone can conclude that man is not born with "freewill" or CHOICE POWERS. Gen4:[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast?[SUP]7 [/SUP]If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”More of God's words instructing Cain how to use his Choice Power... did Cain obey God?...nope.This is the premiss of SELF as god.
Edodus 30:"You shall have no other gods before me. If man had no natural inclination (as in devoid of any god conscious) toward God there would be no need for him to instruct against other gods like self, totems, magic, shamanism, doornobs, higher powers... get it? God isn't an egomaniac... he is pointing the people toward reconciliatin with him... thru all time until Christ on the Cross. Because Adam "CHOSE" to ignore/reject/disobey God... his spirit became separated from God (spiritually dead) thru out the ages man has sought by an assortment of ways (some more unconscionable than others) to satisfy the dead spirit... while God has been leading mankind in this epoch journey to reconcile us to HIMSELF thru the second Adam which is Jesus and give us a marvelous GIFT of salvation (live spirit) if we will choose to recieve it. GOD wills ALL MANKIND be saved... but not all mankind will CHOOSE to recieve salvation... because it comes with TERMS... GOD's terms not man's terms. We know there is a natural inclinaton to a god conscious because the bible says all creation testifies of Him
SO there is a natural inclination toward a god in all mankind... but not THE GOD. This is why the bible teaches there is only one way... for eons man has been devising his own ways.

Hope this helps fill out what I was saying.

yes, it does.
thank you very much.

- i don't deny scripture says we are responsible for our sin against the Creator, and for suppressing the knowledge of a Creator.

- unless you are Pelagian, you know that Adam & Eve don't really count, right?

- either way - why did this happen so soon into our History?

Genesis 3
8And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the coolc of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?”d 10And he said, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.” 11He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” 12The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.” 13Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

14The LORD God said to the serpent,

“Because you have done this,
cursed are you above all livestock
and above all beasts of the field;
on your belly you shall go,
and dust you shall eat
all the days of your life.
15I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspringe and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel.”

Edodus 30:"You shall have no other gods before me. If man had no natural inclination (as in devoid of any god conscious) toward God there would be no need for him to instruct against other gods like self, totems, magic, shamanism, doornobs, higher powers... get it?

right.
The Law.
is there any Law God handed down that can give life? why not?
why did He give it?


Galatians 3
The Law and the Promise
15To give a human example, brothers:f even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.


let's stay on our side of Calvary for now...okay?
t.y.
love zone

also: could we also refer to this part:

Ephesians 2:3
among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

paul clearly includes himself in that...and it is clearly universal in scope.
it clearly involves the body and the mind.
and it speaks of a nature.
and wrath.

 

[Abiding]

Hi Abiding
i'm a Lutheran.
we don't subscribe to Limited Atonement.
no spin on Eph. from us for that... but maybe i'll see more as i go.

i wonder if synergists would be kind enough to do a thread dedicated strictly to synergism debunking monergism (this is not a calvinist issue - please do NOT use calvinism - NO TULIP).

hopefully any monergists, including myself will refrain from debating...though it will be helpful if we can ask questions for clarification.

i would like that very much - since i might be very wrong.
and i want to align with God completely.

love you
Kath

Kath, why didnt you respond to the post you pulled up. It didnt agree with the monergists exegesis of eph 2:8

I really dont like monergists or synergists labels. Or calvinists or arminian labels either. seems theres no choice tho.
Debunking is not my style. Tends to make both sides reach. Usually with wild positions.

Like: thats leads to universalism, or that leads to boasting, or looking down the corridors of time....yawn.

Always a matter of stressing a verse past its intent...and usually the intent of the Holyspirit is long gone
and overlooked.

You cant derive a school of theology into one verse.

I think theres like a half dozen verses in the whole bible the whole debate runs around. The rest is
philosophy and sentiment.

Anyway did u have a comment on that post of mine? #331

 

[Abiding]

And if yout not a "L" or a calvinists then why
speak low of Arminians? Have you not read
His theology or the remonstrants? hmm

I have and i think its slander what is always said about him.
But people are a tad bit like parrots.

 

[zone]

If monergists knew what faith was they would then understand a couple things.
1 how a unregenerate can be justified and saved
2 How God can still be sovereign

okay Mike...i'll pull up 331.
in the meantime...could you go into depth about this, because i'm a monergist and i want to know what faith is.

 

[zone]

And if yout not a "L" or a calvinists then why
speak low of Arminians? Have you not read
His theology or the remonstrants? hmm

I have and i think its slander what is always said about him.
But people are a tad bit like parrots.

okay.
if you post the parts of Arminius you are specifically referring to concerning why a (Lutheran) monergist would speak low of Arminianism, i'll read them, and might decide to not be a parrot.
t.y.
getting 331
Kath

 

[Abiding]

I just grabbed a few verses that explain enough what faith is


Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 

[Abiding]

okay.
if you post the parts of Arminius you are specifically referring to concerning why a (Lutheran) monergist would speak low of Arminianism, i'll read them, and might decide to not be a parrot.
t.y.
getting 331
Kath

Well maybe you do have contentions with some of his teachings.
But all i ever seen that he didnt agree on was limited atonement
and thats folks couldnt(meaning he believed they could) apostatize.
Of coarse so did Luther

In fact he seemed more monergistic than any theologian ive read.
Although through grace

 

[zone]

How do we get faith? A conviction or belief. How are we convicted. and given assurance. But trust in ourself or trust in God.

Is the gospel (what we place our faith in) not a gift?? How could we have faith if God did not do the work and not make the promise? Can you answer this?

2 Corinthians 4:11
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Acts 26
16But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, 17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you 18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

were the gentiles under the power of Satan, blind, in darkness, without God and without hope in the world?
does 2 Corinthians say all unbelievers are blind?

It is both sides trusting the others oaths.. Where did this trust come from??

is the Gospel of salvation conditional?
does God need an oath from us before He grants eternal life and forgiveness of sins?

what is that included in your definition of pistis for?

is salvation conditional on us doing any works EG?

What does this have to do with me trusting Christ or not trusting Christ.

were you able to trust Christ before the God-breathed scriptures enlightened your mind?
Who is in the world working, sent by Christ?

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

An you just contradicted yourself. That same covenant is the same covenant which gives Israel the land of canaan, Which you claim is no longer in effect because Isreal did not do their part..

so which is it??

that's entirely another topic, as far as i'm concerned.

but let's use it anyway.

remember, i am not a calvinist.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

Amos 3:2
"You only have I chosen of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your sins."

Acts 13:17
The God of the people of Israel chose our fathers; he made the people prosper during their stay in Egypt, with mighty power he led them out of that country,

God chose israel.
they did not choose Him.
can we start with that and just say - that is indeed what He said.

 

[BarlyGurl]

yes, it does.
thank you very much.

- i don't deny scripture says we are responsible for our sin against the Creator, and for suppressing the knowledge of a Creator.

- unless you are Pelagian, you know that Adam & Eve don't really count, right? Actually Zone, I had to go look-up what Pelagian is... and after discovering what it does mean. Honestly, I am very offended that for the amount of time I have spent on the forums in bible discussion, much of which you have participated in... that you would suggest that... and in doing so you set me up to be discredited shouls I disagree with any further points. It seems to me that you are so entirely SET in defending the view you hold that by merely asserting a view that "might" seem like some philosophy you have encountered... that is where my view resides. WHich is NOT the case... but I have absolutely NO interest in trying to somehow convince you I am not a pelagian... since you have already decided it is likely. So pelagian accusation aside... Uh.... YES Adam and Eve DO count... or they wouldn't be there...2 Tim 3:16.

- either way - why did this happen so soon into our History? I will just inferr... you are somehow alluding to the unsubstantiated pelagian accusation. My previous post having omitted SATAN in my explanation should not be taken as if I have somehow failed to acknowledge him in my theological/doctrinal understanding and development.

Genesis 3
8And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the coolc of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?”d 10And he said, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.” 11He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” 12The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.” 13Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

14The LORD God said to the serpent,

“Because you have done this,
cursed are you above all livestock
and above all beasts of the field;
on your belly you shall go,
and dust you shall eat
all the days of your life.
15I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspringe and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel.”

Yes, I recognize these verses... but I have absolutely NO idea what you are asserting by posting them. SO how about expound to the rest of us what your purpose is?

right.
The Law. WRONG... you missed the point... I am not going to restate it... you can either GO back to my original post and reread it until you get the point... or not... it is up to you.
let's stay on our side of Calvary for now...okay? Sorry NO CAN DO... you asked to give a fuller explanation of a point I made which YOU LIKED... to do that requires the ALL SCRIPTURE... not just part of the NT.
t.y. You are welcome

 

[zone]

I have no idea what monergism is, Nor do I care to know

sorry EG, i didn't see this previously.
please don't attempt to answer anything i posted just in the last few moments.
thank you.
sorry. i thought you knew what i was talking about (or might care to know).
later bud
love you
zoney.

 

[Abiding]

Im straining my brain how one could be a monergists and not a "L"
nope it doesnt work out. cant be. they are the same.

 

[zone]

Im straining my brain how one could be a monergists and not a "L"
nope it doesnt work out. cant be. they are the same.

really?
how is that?
explain please Abiding.

 

[Abiding]

really?
how is that?
explain please Abiding.

A monergists view is that God regenerates whom He pleases right?
Nothing to do with a mans choice in the matter at all noway....nohow right?

 

[zone]

Actually Zone, I had to go look-up what Pelagian is... and after discovering what it does mean. Honestly, I am very offended that for the amount of time I have spent on the forums in bible discussion, much of which you have participated in... that you would suggest that... and in doing so you set me up to be discredited shouls I disagree with any further points. It seems to me that you are so entirely SET in defending the view you hold that by merely asserting a view that "might" seem like some philosophy you have encountered... that is where my view resides. WHich is NOT the case... but I have absolutely NO interest in trying to somehow convince you I am not a pelagian... since you have already decided it is likely. So pelagian accusation aside... Uh.... YES Adam and Eve DO count... or they wouldn't be there...2 Tim 3:16.

good heavens.

unless you are Pelagian, you know that Adam & Eve don't really count, right? .....if you are not a pelagian, what on earth is your problem.

i never said you were a pelagian. pelagian accusation...well - i thought you were capable of discussing your position.

i was getting to Adams pre-fallen state. ...which unless ONE is pelagian...they KNOW Adam is a special case.

all that huffiness and you entirely missed the point.
sorry to waste our time Barly. it wont happen again

tata then...

 

[Abiding]

tulip or calvinism go togather. Pretty much they intertwine and cant
do much alone.

total depravity is what necessitates limited atonement.

The idear is that man is incapable of responding to the gospel unaided.
Which for the most part id agree. But the gospel itself is what saves and it has
in it the power of Gods grace enabling men to believe if he chooses to also enabled by the Holyspirit.
Who Jesus said would convict the world of sin and about Him.

But some say even with all that there is nothing in a man that would make him will that.
And that noone can will something thats apart from his nature...so i keep asking
what was Adams problem? was he created sinful? But get no answer.

Mixing philosophy with scripture always causes these problems that never get answered.
But we do have answers right there in the bible.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

2 Corinthians 4:11
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Acts 26
16But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, 17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you 18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

were the gentiles under the power of Satan, blind, in darkness, without God and without hope in the world?
does 2 Corinthians say all unbelievers are blind?

Romans 1. Although they knew the truth, they did not Honor God but BECAME futile in their thoughts....Knowing the righteous judgment of God.. They have no excuse.

Eph 4. Having their understanding of God darkened. Ignorant (not the ignorant we think of. they Knew, as in romans 1, But hardened their own heart) and became hardened.

How does God blind someone? he puts truth in their face,, So that seeing they may be blind, and hearing they may not see.

The still know. and they still chose of their own free will to reject..They blinded themselves, by hardening themselves to truth. We see it in here all the time.

is the Gospel of salvation conditional?
does God need an oath from us before He grants eternal life and forgiveness of sins?

No. But he is not going to force someone to reject him or receive him..

Faith in God is not an oath. Nice try though.

what is that included in your definition of pistis for?

It agrees with the biblical definition. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. When your assured God can be trusted, you repent,, which brings about faith.

is salvation conditional on us doing any works EG?

Your joking right? Again, How can I boast of having an assurance Christ did what he did for me, and chosing to trust him completely? I did not work, he did all the work..

were you able to trust Christ before the God-breathed scriptures enlightened your mind?

The HS convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgment, If I chose to believe him, I have the opportunity to repent. If I chose to reject him, I still have no excuse. Why? Because I understood the truth, and blinded my mind to it.. Why? Read romans 1 and eph 4..

Who is in the world working, sent by Christ?

See my last point.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

That whoever believed in him shall not parish but has eternal life (born again).. meaning whoever does not believe will not be born again.. Again, see my point on what the HS does to the world.

that's entirely another topic, as far as i'm concerned.

but let's use it anyway.

remember, i am not a calvinist.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

Amos 3:2
"You only have I chosen of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your sins."

Acts 13:17
The God of the people of Israel chose our fathers; he made the people prosper during their stay in Egypt, with mighty power he led them out of that country,

God chose israel.
they did not choose Him.
can we start with that and just say - that is indeed what He said.

God chose Isreal. Not to save them. But that he would come through them, and he would give them the land as a possession. Those where his promises. He gave them to them.. and he said this was an eternal covenant. .

did he require them to have faith he would do this work? No
Did he promise them all salvation? No


so again, do not see your point. Has nothing to do with MY SALVATION or anyone elses.

 

[cfultz3]

tulip or calvinism go togather. Pretty much they intertwine and cant
do much alone.

total depravity is what necessitates limited atonement.

The idear is that man is incapable of responding to the gospel unaided.
Which for the most part id agree. But the gospel itself is what saves and it has
in it the power of Gods grace enabling men to believe if he chooses to also enabled by the Holyspirit.
Who Jesus said would convict the world of sin and about Him.

But some say even with all that there is nothing in a man that would make him will that.
And that noone can will something thats apart from his nature...so i keep asking
what was Adams problem? was he created sinful? But get no answer.

Mixing philosophy with scripture always causes these problems that never get answered.
But we do have answers right there in the bible.

The Gospel is the Power of God unto Salvation.
The Gospel is the Power of God unto Salvation.
The Gospel is the Power of God unto Salvation.

One more time:

The Gospel is the Power of God unto Salvation.

 

[zone]

A monergists view is that God regenerates whom He pleases right?

no. that is not the definition of monergism in Lutheranism.

[though i can certainly see and argue for the passages that do say that - for they are there...also]

"[Divine monergism] understands that we are dead in our trespasses and dependent on God to speak us back to life. It does not quantify this but merely proclaims God’s word to those who like and those who like it not. Read Luther’s Bondage of the Will and you will most likely react against its comprehensive claims for the will and work of God in the world. Luther is thoroughly Scriptural to the point that it is offensive to us. The Bondage of the Will is a Scriptural description of God’s monergistic work that will turn your stomach and offend your self-vaunted will..."Tim Rossow

 

[jimmydiggs]

But some say even with all that there is nothing in a man that would make him will that.
And that noone can will something thats apart from his nature...so i keep asking
what was Adams problem? was he created sinful? But get no answer.

The fall of man was inevitable.

Proverbs 16:4
English Standard Version (ESV)
4 The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.




Proverbs 16:33
English Standard Version (ESV)
33 The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the Lord.




Proverbs 16:9
English Standard Version (ESV)
9 The heart of man plans his way,
but the Lord establishes his steps.




Lamentations 3:37-38
English Standard Version (ESV)
37 Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has commanded it?
38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that good and bad come?

 

[Abiding]

no. that is not the definition of monergism in Lutheranism.

[though i can certainly see and argue for the passages that do say that - for they are there...also]

"[Divine monergism] understands that we are dead in our trespasses and dependent on God to speak us back to life. It does not quantify this but merely proclaims God’s word to those who like and those who like it not. Read Luther’s Bondage of the Will and you will most likely react against its comprehensive claims for the will and work of God in the world. Luther is thoroughly Scriptural to the point that it is offensive to us. The Bondage of the Will is a Scriptural description of God’s monergistic work that will turn your stomach and offend your self-vaunted will..."Tim Rossow

Yes i have a copy and have read it. Im not in any way doubting our sinful capacity.
And noone i know or have read outside a mental institution would think or say man
has the ability to quicken himself to immortality.

I think you know well that a monergists denies man has a say so in his salvation
or damnation. And deny that God would even give man the grace to choose period.
So like i said monergists are "L" Men are just whatever..their will means less than nothing.