God's freewill vs. Mankind's election
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E
I did, for 5 years. And God showed mercy on me and brought me back to him.
But what has this to do with the thread? this thread is abotu people getting saved, is it by God's freewill, or mankinds election.. So why do you keep going to places which has nothing to do with the op? and nothing to do with salvation.
But what has this to do with the thread? this thread is abotu people getting saved, is it by God's freewill, or mankinds election.. So why do you keep going to places which has nothing to do with the op? and nothing to do with salvation.
W
ok i read and caught up and have some questions.
questions to understand where the disagreements come from. Ephesians does tell us that its by "grace" we are saved.
lets leave out the faith part we all know faith is necessary and that it also is a gift.
another question. to me it seems clear that "not of works" would be understood to Pauls audience that
he was talking about the law. so why do so many today think they have use a microscope on this verse
and come up with a meaning that says receiving the gospel by ones own volition(which is commanded)
is the "works" talked about here?
Id think the Holyspirit would have been more clear if that was His intent. Titus 3:5 is clear, and Hes clear
elsewhere in the bible.
Actually Jesus commented once and said if we did everything we were commanded consider outselves
unprofitable servants, doing only what we ought.
Ok,,,hmm....in otherwords ...what the heck is this thread even about?
questions to understand where the disagreements come from. Ephesians does tell us that its by "grace" we are saved.
lets leave out the faith part we all know faith is necessary and that it also is a gift.
possibly someone will understand my questions and then i can join the discussion on my level(simpleton)
does Ephesians say that grace saved me? or does it mean if im saved it was grace that did it? <-------this question is important to me
does Ephesians say that grace saved me? or does it mean if im saved it was grace that did it? <-------this question is important to me
he was talking about the law. so why do so many today think they have use a microscope on this verse
and come up with a meaning that says receiving the gospel by ones own volition(which is commanded)
is the "works" talked about here?
Id think the Holyspirit would have been more clear if that was His intent. Titus 3:5 is clear, and Hes clear
elsewhere in the bible.
Actually Jesus commented once and said if we did everything we were commanded consider outselves
unprofitable servants, doing only what we ought.
Ok,,,hmm....in otherwords ...what the heck is this thread even about?
No offence to anyone but some thing written in this post seemed to have gone off the deep end Why is it so hard to see Gods grace in all things and also see our God given choice to choose him ,for without choice there can be no love toward God.Is this what he want of us ,or true love because we have decided ,through his great goodness and righteousness,and love revealed to us to love him by our volition . I think even the angels have this choice. Ill shut up for now, I think these word are at least worth considering . God bless us as we seek to know our lord better.
A
I like your rambling. And it seems to both fit with my experience and the bible. Sure enuf salvation
is of the Lord from start to finish. And all by Grace, but we still have a responsibility to believe.
John says, “To all who receive him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:12-13).
Above verse shows the order of things as does many other verses. and like this:
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Some dont noticed the order, or dismiss it. I think thats the problem.
It has everything to do with it.
You said:" I did for five years, and God showed mercy on me."
God's freewill vs. your election.
Do you not see that?
Need I break it down more?
I don't know..........
Please think.
A person who continues to sin and rebels will be accounted as an apostate, and eventually lost.
The Bible clearly states that.
Your testimony has everything to do with God's freewill to draw you back to Him, as opposed to your own righteousness.
Am I whistling in the wind here?
Hello? Any thinkers out there?
You said:" I did for five years, and God showed mercy on me."
God's freewill vs. your election.
Do you not see that?
Need I break it down more?
I don't know..........
Please think.
A person who continues to sin and rebels will be accounted as an apostate, and eventually lost.
The Bible clearly states that.
Your testimony has everything to do with God's freewill to draw you back to Him, as opposed to your own righteousness.
Am I whistling in the wind here?
Hello? Any thinkers out there?
E
Nope I did not. What I saw was God allowed me to live, but chastened me to the point that I had two choices. Take myself out (which I contemplated) or freely choose to return to him. Both would have been free will choices.. Why do you like to twist things to make them mean something they do not mean?
break what down? How I followed the Lords chastening and chose to return of my free volition, and did not end it all? or your twisted view of things?
Oh ok, Now we get down to it.
1. You do not believe in eternal security
2. You think we are saved by law and not by grace (here we go, you just contradicted yourself in everything you have ever said. I am saved by being chosen. But I can be saved by being chosen and not because I earned it. But if I do not have the power to work hard enough, God will take his free gift back. )
need I say more?
No it does not say this. It says we have been sealed with the HS of promise, who is th eguarantee of our inheritance as Gods children, and that guarantee will last until the day of redemption. NOT until the day we sin ourselves out of grace.
What righteousness? why do you keep bringing this up? I was unrighteous as the prodigal son. But I never stopped believing in God. I knew I was away from my fathers house, and my suffering was brought on by my own free will actions. God chose to chasten me because I was his son. He chastens ALL HIS SONS. I Chose of my oen free will to return. I did not have to. And I would have died if I did not chose to return (not spiritually, physically)
Any thinkers. do you not see the MAJOR contradiction you just made in your own thinking?? Look in the mirror before you start demanding others start thinking.
EG - who gave you faith?
Who invented faith?
Who planned His whole program around the vehicle of faith as the means through which man would believe unto salvation?
faith as the channel between God and man, faciliated by the Spirit through the Word preached, the God-breathed Scriptures.
come on bud.
seriously?
it's all God, brother. All the Lord's doing.
why do we have to take credit for our faith?
is our sinful will that important?
Who invented faith?
Who planned His whole program around the vehicle of faith as the means through which man would believe unto salvation?
faith as the channel between God and man, faciliated by the Spirit through the Word preached, the God-breathed Scriptures.
come on bud.
seriously?
it's all God, brother. All the Lord's doing.
why do we have to take credit for our faith?
is our sinful will that important?
E
Does it matter? this is a faulty question in my mind. Faith is my assurance of things which I can not see. thus it is mine.
The better question would be who gave us a reason to trust and be assured that he is better able to save me than anyone else, even myself. because this is what separates a child of God from a non believer. who is still stuck in self, or religion.
God, that is why my faith is in him, and not religion or self. which is a man made program. Many people have faith in self or a religioN> And who gets credit for this faith? the person trusting self. or the person trusting their works (religion)
Who said I am taking credit? what did you just say? Come on Sis, Seriously?
I can not take credit for my faith unless my faith is in myself. Why can't you see this? The object of my faith is what gets credit, not the faith itself.
The better question would be who gave us a reason to trust and be assured that he is better able to save me than anyone else, even myself. because this is what separates a child of God from a non believer. who is still stuck in self, or religion.
God, that is why my faith is in him, and not religion or self. which is a man made program. Many people have faith in self or a religioN> And who gets credit for this faith? the person trusting self. or the person trusting their works (religion)
Who said I am taking credit? what did you just say? Come on Sis, Seriously?
I can not take credit for my faith unless my faith is in myself. Why can't you see this? The object of my faith is what gets credit, not the faith itself.
E
lol.. Who did all the work? Made the plan. Came to earth, Lived a life free of sin, Died, Resurrected from the dead. and offered the gift? (of which my faith is based on)
this is why people who do not repent, trust self, or add to the gospel. it is still about self. Repentance is what brings us to truth, and faith. Thats why we are commanded to repent.
this is why people who do not repent, trust self, or add to the gospel. it is still about self. Repentance is what brings us to truth, and faith. Thats why we are commanded to repent.
A
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perished because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. [1 Thessalonians 2:9-10]
Why are there dozens and dozens of scriptures like this?
And where is that cant resist verse? Please!
Why are there dozens and dozens of scriptures like this?
And where is that cant resist verse? Please!
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i don't know about "can't resist"....but here's the rest of that passage.
maybe we should look at it in the greek.
KEN???
2 Thessalonians 2
11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Stand Firm
13But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruitsd to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.
16Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, 17comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
ESV
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
NIV
But we must always thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God has chosen you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
Holman
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
KJV
maybe we should look at it in the greek.
KEN???
2 Thessalonians 2
11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Stand Firm
13But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruitsd to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.
16Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, 17comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
ESV
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
NIV
But we must always thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God has chosen you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
Holman
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
KJV
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But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you; - see the notes on 2 Thessalonians 1:3. "Because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." The following important things are affirmed or implied here:
(1) That God had chosen or elected them (εἵλετο heileto) to salvation. The doctrine of election, therefore, is true.
(2) that this was from "the beginning" ἀπ ̓ ἀρχῆς ap' archēs; that is, from eternity; see the John 1:1 note; Ephesians 1:4; Ephesians 3:9-11 notes. The doctrine of eternal election is, therefore, true.
Barnes
(1) That God had chosen or elected them (εἵλετο heileto) to salvation. The doctrine of election, therefore, is true.
(2) that this was from "the beginning" ἀπ ̓ ἀρχῆς ap' archēs; that is, from eternity; see the John 1:1 note; Ephesians 1:4; Ephesians 3:9-11 notes. The doctrine of eternal election is, therefore, true.
Barnes
Hath chosen (εἵλατο
The only case in N.T. in which this word is used of God's election. lxx, Deuteronomy 26:18, of God's choosing Israel to be his peculiar people. Comp. Philippians 1:22; Hebrews 11:25.
From the beginning (ἀπ' ἀρχῆς
Not elsewhere in Paul. His usual expressions are πρὸ τῶν αἰώνων before the ages (1 Corinthians 2:7): πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4): ἀπὸ τῶν αἰώνων from the ages (Ephesians 3:9). Before eternal times (πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων is found 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2.
Vincent
~
13. But-In delightful contrast to the damnation of the lost (2Th 2:12) stands the "salvation" of Paul's converts.
are bound-in duty (2Th 1:3).
thanks . to God-not to ourselves, your ministers, nor to you, our converts.
beloved of the Lord-Jesus (Ro 8:37; Ga 2:20; Eph 5:2, 25). Elsewhere God the Father is said to love us (2Th 2:16; Joh 3:16; Eph 2:4; Col 3:12). Therefore Jesus and the Father are one.
from the beginning-"before the foundation of the world" (Eph 1:4; compare 1Co 2:7; 2Ti 1:9); in contrast to those that shall "worship the beast, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Re 13:8). Some of the oldest manuscripts read as English Version, but other oldest manuscripts and Vulgate read, "as first-fruits." The Thessalonians were among the first converts in Europe (compare Ro 16:5; 1Co 16:15). In a more general sense, it occurs in Jas 1:18; Re 14:4; so I understand it here including the more restricted sense.
chosen you-The Greek, is not the ordinary word for "elected," implying His eternal selection; but taken for Himself, implying His having adopted them in His eternal purpose. It is found in the Septuagint (De 7:7; 10:15).
through-rather as Greek, "in sanctification" as the element in which the choice to salvation had place (compare 1Pe 1:2), standing in contrast to the "unrighteousness," the element in which Antichrist's followers are given over by God to damnation (2Th 2:12).
of the Spirit-wrought by the Spirit who sanctifies all the elect people of God, first by eternally consecrating them to perfect holiness in Christ, once for all, next by progressively imparting it.
belief of the truth-contrasted with "believed not the truth" (2Th 2:12).
JFBBC
~
BOOKENDS!
bring the horse!
The only case in N.T. in which this word is used of God's election. lxx, Deuteronomy 26:18, of God's choosing Israel to be his peculiar people. Comp. Philippians 1:22; Hebrews 11:25.
From the beginning (ἀπ' ἀρχῆς
Not elsewhere in Paul. His usual expressions are πρὸ τῶν αἰώνων before the ages (1 Corinthians 2:7): πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4): ἀπὸ τῶν αἰώνων from the ages (Ephesians 3:9). Before eternal times (πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων
is found 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2.Vincent
~
13. But-In delightful contrast to the damnation of the lost (2Th 2:12) stands the "salvation" of Paul's converts.
are bound-in duty (2Th 1:3).
thanks . to God-not to ourselves, your ministers, nor to you, our converts.
beloved of the Lord-Jesus (Ro 8:37; Ga 2:20; Eph 5:2, 25). Elsewhere God the Father is said to love us (2Th 2:16; Joh 3:16; Eph 2:4; Col 3:12). Therefore Jesus and the Father are one.
from the beginning-"before the foundation of the world" (Eph 1:4; compare 1Co 2:7; 2Ti 1:9); in contrast to those that shall "worship the beast, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Re 13:8). Some of the oldest manuscripts read as English Version, but other oldest manuscripts and Vulgate read, "as first-fruits." The Thessalonians were among the first converts in Europe (compare Ro 16:5; 1Co 16:15). In a more general sense, it occurs in Jas 1:18; Re 14:4; so I understand it here including the more restricted sense.
chosen you-The Greek, is not the ordinary word for "elected," implying His eternal selection; but taken for Himself, implying His having adopted them in His eternal purpose. It is found in the Septuagint (De 7:7; 10:15).
through-rather as Greek, "in sanctification" as the element in which the choice to salvation had place (compare 1Pe 1:2), standing in contrast to the "unrighteousness," the element in which Antichrist's followers are given over by God to damnation (2Th 2:12).
of the Spirit-wrought by the Spirit who sanctifies all the elect people of God, first by eternally consecrating them to perfect holiness in Christ, once for all, next by progressively imparting it.
belief of the truth-contrasted with "believed not the truth" (2Th 2:12).
JFBBC
~
BOOKENDS!
bring the horse!