God's freewill vs. Mankind's election

[eternally-gratefull]

The Q is how the unregenerate (who are in the flesh) at any time can have the characteristics of the regenerate (who are in the Spirit) and be pleasing to God while yet in their lost state.

They can't I have never stated they could. Yet this is not how one gets saved. so again your question is invalid. the ONLY way in which this question becomes valid is if we are saved because we have worked to act like a regenerate man.

How they, while bearing fruit unto death (Rom.7:5), yet may show forth fruit of the Spirit, such as meekness and faith (Gal.5:22-23). How is this possible? It cannot be! Give this a thought or two, bro. Peace out.

givethis a thought? we agree here. But I am not saved BY PRODUCING FRUIT. I am saved (MADE ALIVE) and then given the ability to produce fruit. If salvation is given only to those hwo produce fruit first. we have a works based Gospel.

 

[zone]

But I am not saved BY PRODUCING FRUIT. I am saved (MADE ALIVE) and then given the ability to produce fruit. If salvation is given only to those hwo produce fruit first. we have a works based Gospel.

but if you produced your faith, surely you can produce your own fruit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

yet this is NOT what the passage says, it says salvation is a gift. which is given to those who have faith. not to those who attempt to work for it.. Are you going to deny this?
Yes I will. You misread. The Apostle obviously stated that the very act of believing(itself) was a gift from God. - (Faith also being a gift)

No he does not. He is telling us how we are saved. he is distinguishing two possibilities. one which is of faith and another which is of works. lest any man should boast is in reference to works. not faith.

This is not a reference to faith, this is a reference to how we are saved. Your twisting the meaning of the passage.
Really? What do you think "and that not of yourselves" means coming after "by grace are you saved through faith"? -

I think it means what it says, we are not saved by works. if we were saved by works, we would be saving ourselves.

we can;t boast of faith in God, unless we try to work to earn his grace. for then our faith owuld be in self not God.

the point is, what is your faith in? god or self? this is what paul was trying to show.

Do you think the Apostle was addressing grace? - O.K.-
Grace for what? Grace for what? The believing that Jesus is Lord? Perhaps that? - Or is it grace that He lived a perfect life and died,............but it is up to you to believe?
C'mon!

the mere fact you are given the ability to believe is of grace, again your reverse logic is not helping you


I agree. They have mere belief, which did not come from true repentance. Thus they did not have true faith, which means they were never saved.

we are saved by faith, of one does not have true faith which comes from true repentnance. how can they then be saved? they can't

Repentance is a gift. - - - - Do not you understand that? - - - Do you think you are good enough to repent? - - - -

again, you have twisted logic. Think I am good enough to repent? Do you think this makes sense at all? I repent, BECAUSE I AM NOT GOOD ENOUGH. If I still think I am good enough, or need to help God, I have nor repented.

so the logical question should be is this. Are you to good to think you do not have to repent?

It's not going to happen man! - - - Not without faith -- which also is a derivative of unmerited favor-(grace)!

And you have this backwards. I am not going to have true faith, UNLESS I REPENT. Repentence brings about faith. if I have repented, I have faiht in God. if I still trust in self (have not repented) I will have faith in self.

If the the greatest, most beautiful of God's created beings(Satan) was not able to ascend the heights of the Holy Mountain once he was cast out - Ezekiel 28:14; Isaiah 14:14.
How much less us after we have fallen.

Do you want scriptures?

Do want to look at logic. or continue to twist things? which make no sense?

 

[RickShafer]

The verses for God's freewill vs. man's self appointment:Romans 9:4-33 KJV
(My commentaries in red)

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.(By miraculous divine intervention, not of flesh...it could never be accounted as something that would naturally occur: an 100 year old man seeding a ninety year old woman to the giving of birth....here we have Abraham, the father of faith siring a child by a ninety year old wife? - - - Me thinks faith might be an actual gift - Jacob)

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (Mercy to do what? Where is that precious mercy appointed to?)

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. - (See the omnipotence? ....Who sees the omnipotence?)

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; - (More religious affectation by the one's with the word taking the place of God's gift to those who did not have the Word, but on whom He showed mercy)

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. - (This is Jesus and the vast majority of jews, -to whom was given the law of God; don't believe in Him to this day)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

but if you produced your faith, surely you can produce your own fruit.

I did not produce my own faith. My faith is not in self, thus it is not a self centered faith. it is faith in God.

 

[zone]

I did not produce my own faith.

yay.
we agree.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

Romans 9:16
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

yay.
we agree.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

Romans 9:16
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

yet it is still my faith, vs your faith, or my moms faith, or Gods faith.

Faith means assurance. it is my assurance in everything God said which saved me. Not Gods assurace that he did everything right.. he already knows that !

 

[BarlyGurl]

This thread is merely asking the question:
Does God have a choice.
Does God actually have a choice in salvation, or is it left up to mankind.
After He(God), did His work.
Who elect's who?
And how do they go about it?
This is the question of this thread.

Mostly Rick... I just HATE your word choices.
DOes God have a Choice???? Whatttt!!!!
GOd is MASTER of all...From Beginning to End... I don't think you meant to be irreverent... but the phrase seems so to me.
God elected mankind, vs angels, demons, animals, plants, insects
Mankind has freewill... to exercise his reasoning power
All Creation cries out the evidence of God
Man's spirit recognizes seperation but the intellect may not recognize the solution... Hurray gospel message!!!
I think there are way more people who are conceived by the Holy Spirit... but have not yet been Born Again thru the death, and resurrectin of Christ...which is gonna be a bummer for them to discover.

 

[RickShafer]

What Barley?
Before, you accounted me a wordsmith.
Now you hate my word choices.
Am I now, all the sudden become an awful(lousy) word chooser?
Or did I mean what I said in the first place?
Please reread.
(I chose these words more carefully than those previous that you admired.)
I'm the same person,.......(I might be stupid,.........but I'm the same individual).

 

[BarlyGurl]

What Barley?
Before, you accounted me a wordsmith.
Now you hate my word choices.
Am I now, all the sudden become an awful(lousy) word chooser?
Or did I mean what I said in the first place?
Please reread.
(I chose these words more carefully than those previous that you admired.)
I'm the same person,.......(I might be stupid,.........but I'm the same individual).

I didn't know that you interpreted "excellent word smithing" to mean I thought ALL your words were excellent choices... lol.
I just hate that particular PHRASE (up there^^^) for the reason I explained.
I will reread... and where has anyone suggested you were stupid???

K... I reread... and I have nothing more to add... Sorry.

 

[RickShafer]

Which words "up there"?
I'm making a point.
Everyone argues God's munificent election vs. man's freewill.
I decided to turn it around, because the truth is the same no matter which way it is considered.
Does God have freewill? - (I should say YES!)
Does man elect himself? - ( I will say NO!)
So why speak in terms of God's election vs. man's freewill?
It seems to me a deflection toward mankind, don't you?
Who is greater? God or man?
God saves souls and He takes them too, it's time we know it.
And stop pretending to decide for Him.

Listen,.....the way modern christianity is put forth it's like standing before a menu at McDonald's.
"- - - - - - Ahhhh....Yeh God, I'll take a .......aaahhhh..... Antinomialist Big Mac, hold the lettuce, and.....
aaaahhhhhhh..... a Calvinist fries, with a coke."
(Voice from above - "No Coke, Pepsi")
"then Pepsi."
(Voice from above - "would you like an apple turnover with that?")
"........aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh, no thanks."
(Voice from above, " would you like to make that a jumbo order?")
"What's in a jumbo?"
(Well, you get all the blessings of God, except moreso - you get big fat material blessings for $58 dollars a month")
"....aaaaaahhhhhhhh.....no thanks, I'll just take my regular salvation meal."
("O.K., .....your total is your life, your number is 368, please drive thru")
You drive thru
("Did you want any ketchup?")

Frankly, it's a 'have it your way' brand of religion that makes me sick.
You know, the gospel isn't a religion, it's the truth.
And Jesus isn't another way into heaven, He's the only way.
He's the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
No body makes it except through Him. - (No drive up happy meals)

 

[BarlyGurl]

Which words "up there"? The phrase of the title
I'm making a point. I see it...NOW
Everyone argues God's munificent election vs. man's freewill.
I decided to turn it around, because the truth is the same no matter which way it is considered.
Does God have freewill? - (I should say YES!) I think he has ALL WILL
Does man elect himself? - ( I will say NO!) agree
So why speak in terms of God's election vs. man's freewill?
It seems to me a deflection toward mankind, don't you? ABSOLUTELY!!!!!
Who is greater? God or man? Uh... I gotta pray about that...(ya know I am kidding RIGHT?)
God saves souls and He takes them too, it's time we know it.
And stop pretending to decide for Him.

Listen,.....the way modern christianity is put forth it's like standing before a menu at McDonald's. Hate fast food... pinkslime... GMO's... MSG's... ICK
"- - - - - - Ahhhh....Yeh God, I'll take a .......aaahhhh..... Antinomialist Big Mac, hold the lettuce, and.....
aaaahhhhhhh..... a Calvinist fries, with a coke."
(Voice from above - "No Coke, Pepsi")
"then Pepsi."
(Voice from above - "would you like an apple turnover with that?")
"........aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh, no thanks."
(Voice from above, " would you like to make that a jumbo order?")
"What's in a jumbo?"
(Well, you get all the blessings of God, except moreso - you get big fat material blessings for $58 dollars a month")
"....aaaaaahhhhhhhh.....no thanks, I'll just take my regular salvation meal."
("O.K., .....your total is your life, your number is 368, please drive thru")
You drive thru
("Did you want any ketchup?")

Ha HA... Nice smithing..

Frankly, it's a 'have it your way' brand of religion that makes me sick.
You know, the gospel isn't a religion, it's the truth.
And Jesus isn't another way into heaven, He's the only way.
He's the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
No body makes it except through Him. - (No drive up happy meals)

WHOLLY Agreed.

 

[RickShafer]

Modern Christianity: the Genetically Modified Fast Food of say it, pray it, bray it, pay it.
A sort of Daniel's Seventh chapter fourth beast of "I claim God!" - ('And I'll hold Him to it')
"I know Jesus because not only did I attend Sunday school as a child,........I said the sinner's prayer after I partook of the world!"
As sort of cosmopolitan agreeing with God - (or the nearest totem pastor standing in His stead) - "Yes son, your sins are forgiven"
So many dreams crop up out of societies fancies.
Too bad Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Father aren't quite like that. - Funny how they are so different from the world and it's ways.
Almost makes the material mind conjure up it's own savior.
No room for tears of repentance unto salvation in the corporation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Modern Christianity: the Genetically Modified Fast Food of say it, pray it, bray it, pay it.
A sort of Daniel's Seventh chapter fourth beast of "I claim God!" - ('And I'll hold Him to it')
"I know Jesus because not only did I attend Sunday school as a child,........I said the sinner's prayer after I partook of the world!"
As sort of cosmopolitan agreeing with God - (or the nearest totem pastor standing in His stead) - "Yes son, your sins are forgiven"
So many dreams crop up out of societies fancies.
Too bad Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Father aren't quite like that. - Funny how they are so different from the world and it's ways.
Almost makes the material mind conjure up it's own savior.
No room for tears of repentance unto salvation in the corporation.

while I agree with everything you said here. It does not mean man does not have freewill to chose. Res, we seem to be going to a speek easy gospel. it is all about numbers in many churches I have been to in the past. Lets see how many we can get to say this prayer, then leave them alone, and go get more to say this prayer. Thus discipleship is lost. and we have a bunch of baby Christians who do not even fully inderstand what being a Christian means. That is if they are saved at all.

 

[Abiding]

ok i read and caught up and have some questions.

questions to understand where the disagreements come from. Ephesians does tell us that its by "grace" we are saved.
lets leave out the faith part we all know faith is necessary and that it also is a gift.

possibly someone will understand my questions and then i can join the discussion on my level(simpleton)
does Ephesians say that grace saved me? or does it mean if im saved it was grace that did it? <-------this question is important to me

another question. to me it seems clear that "not of works" would be understood to Pauls audience that
he was talking about the law. so why do so many today think they have use a microscope on this verse
and come up with a meaning that says receiving the gospel by ones own volition(which is commanded)
is the "works" talked about here?

Id think the Holyspirit would have been more clear if that was His intent. Titus 3:5 is clear, and Hes clear
elsewhere in the bible.

Actually Jesus commented once and said if we did everything we were commanded consider outselves
unprofitable servants, doing only what we ought.

Ok,,,hmm....in otherwords ...what the heck is this thread even about?

 

[RickShafer]

Who makes the heart of man?
God gives him freewill.
But no man can serve two masters.
So what I am saying is that God keeps His own (whom He has called)
Can we go out and serve the other?
Yes. But be prepared.
Try doing something you know is evil E.G.
See what God does.
Notice the rod of His correction.
Feel the pain.
That's all I'm saying.
We have the right to serve either one of the two masters, but when God has paid for us in His own blood(the life is in the blood),
it gets awfully personal.
It would take an awfully hard conscience to leave Him.
Even Judas tried to give the money back, and then hanged himself.
Just try going against God........try it E.G. -(and if you survive, come back and tell us all about it.)

 

[Abiding]

Human sentiment and emotion can push alot of private interpretation.

 

[Abiding]

Rick do you believe that i had a choice in my salvation? Or did God just put the whammy on me?

 

[RickShafer]

God elects.
That's what this threads about.
If you don't believe me (or the Word) then do your own thing.
Go ahead, try it.
If you are His you will be ABSOLUTELY MISERABLE.
If not, no harm, no foul.
God elects.
He has, (as our Maker), the right to do that.
Go and do .... go and do.
DO it, fulfill your carnal desire!
Aaaahhhh, Ha,ha,ha,ha!!!
See where that gets you if indeed you are hid in Him?
(See where it got David)
DO you not know it was common practice for the king to choose women in his time?
It was common practice. But not for him. - Not for God.
He paid to t he utmost. Why?
Because he was bought with a price.
Could he have told Nathan to go #!#@)@)@#$( OFF?
Yes.
Why didn't he?
Because he was owned.
He knew where his help came from, he knew he was chosen by the God of Israel,
Samuel actually laid his prophetic hands on him.
David knew who he belonged to.
Moreover, David wanted to stay with the God JHVH of Israel.
David knew. God spared him(not without tremendous heartache)

God's freewill vs. mankind's self election, that's what this thread is about.

 

[Abiding]

God elects.
That's what this threads about.
If you don't believe me (or the Word) then do your own thing.
Go ahead, try it.
If you are His you will be ABSOLUTELY MISERABLE.
If not, no harm, no foul.
God elects.
He has, (as our Maker), the right to do that.
Go and do .... go and do.
DO it, fulfill your carnal desire!
Aaaahhhh, Ha,ha,ha,ha!!!
See where that gets you if indeed you are hid in Him?
(See where it got David)
DO you not know it was common practice for the king to choose women in his time?
It was common practice. But not for him. - Not for God.
He paid to t he utmost. Why?
Because he was bought with a price.
Could he have told Nathan to go #!#@)@)@#$( OFF?
Yes.
Why didn't he?
Because he was owned.
He knew where his help came from, he knew he was chosen by the God of Israel,
Samuel actually laid his prophetic hands on him.
David knew who he belonged to.
Moreover, David wanted to stay with the God JHVH of Israel.
David knew. God spared him(not without tremendous heartache)

God's freewill vs. mankind's self election, that's what this thread is about.

Well none of what you said there had a thing to do with what you say this thread is about.
What the thread asks is in relation to salvation unless i just dont understand the words your using.
This post is more of a rant than a response.

Im not doubting God has the power to do as He pleases, nor was i asking whether or Not He Keeps
directs or chastises His purchased people. I rekon ill bow out, since theres really no dialogue.