God's freewill vs. Mankind's election

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#61
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
60
0
#61
Another idol is: fitting in. - In fact, to the main flow of lemmings, that is the idol; - just to fit in.
Just to reach a philosophical arrangement with the god of this world; - (again: see temptations).
So how easy it is to think one has chosen God when they in reality, they have chosen the god of this world.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#62
#62
RickShafer said:
Another idol is: fitting in. - In fact, to the main flow of lemmings, that is the idol; - just to fit in.
Just to reach a philosophical arrangement with the god of this world; - (again: see temptations).
So how easy it is to think one has chosen God when they in reality, they have chosen the god of this world.
Click to expand...
This is satans doing. he leads many astray because they are still in self. They chose a religion which fits their desires. and not the desires of God.

It does not mean many have not chosen God. This is what repentance is. And why there is only one faith. not many faiths. and one gospel. not many.
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#63
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
60
0
#63
PS said:
I repeat an idol cannot draw people neither can any inanimate object. It is our own lust or desire that draws us and we are told to seek the Lord.
Click to expand...
You miss the point: the idol is our own lust and desires.
The desire to fit in with the crowd is another one of them.
Many men left God's purposes for what sounded like the same.
Many left their first love for vain philosophies-(world); or vain traditions-(religion).
Satan is smooth, ......by now he's combined them:
One world economy.
One world spirituality.
One world polity.

The foe is not daft.
Reread the parable of the four types of seed, and how three of them sprouted up strong,(seeking God).
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#64
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#64
RickShafer said:
Another idol is: fitting in. - In fact, to the main flow of lemmings, that is the idol; - just to fit in.
Just to reach a philosophical arrangement with the god of this world; - (again: see temptations).
So how easy it is to think one has chosen God when they in reality, they have chosen the god of this world.
Click to expand...
Adam and Eve knew perfectly well which way they had chosen, even hiding themselves from God.
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#65
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
60
0
#65
So who led them to seek this benefit?
Was it them or God?
Better put, who kept the seed until;l it would bear heavenly fruit?
The freewill of the plant-(man); or the eternal purposes of the planter-(God)?
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#66
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#66
RickShafer said:
So who led them to seek this benefit?
Was it them or God?
Better put, who kept the seed until;l it would bear heavenly fruit?
The freewill of the plant-(man); or the eternal purposes of the planter-(God)?
Click to expand...
It is the eternal purpose of God that we should all come to Him. This is why we are told

Anyone who is willing, "Look unto me, and be ye saved, Isa. 46:22

Anyone who is willing, "Incline your ear, and come unto me; hear, and your soul shall live. Isa. 55:3.

Anyone who is willing, "forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. Isa. 55:7.

Anyone who is willing, "return unto the Lord, thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hos. 14:1

Anyone who is willing, "turn ye even unto me with all your heart" Joel 2:12.

Anyone who is willing, "Seek ye me, and ye shall live," and again, "Seek the Lord, and ye shall live." Amos 5:4, 6.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#67
#67
RickShafer said:
So who led them to seek this benefit?
Was it them or God?
Better put, who kept the seed until;l it would bear heavenly fruit?
The freewill of the plant-(man); or the eternal purposes of the planter-(God)?
Click to expand...
better yet.

what was the seed?
How long was the seed planted before the plant sprang to life?
why did the seed have different effects on different people?
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#68
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
60
0
#68
PS said:
Adam and Eve knew perfectly well which way they had chosen, even hiding themselves from God.
Click to expand...
You said - 'Adam and Eve knew perfectly well which way they had chosen, even hiding themselves from God.'

Do you realize they had never hid themselves from God before??????
Or known fear?
Yet you say: "they knew perfectly well what they were getting into"
Really?
They had the knowledge of good and evil before they partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

But you say......"they knew, they knew!!!!"
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#69
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#69
RickShafer said:
You said - 'Adam and Eve knew perfectly well which way they had chosen, even hiding themselves from God.'

Do you realize they had never hid themselves from God before??????
Or known fear?
Yet you say: "they knew perfectly well what they were getting into"
Really?
They had the knowledge of good and evil before they partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

But you say......"they knew, they knew!!!!"
Click to expand...
They were commanded not to eat of a certain fruit, and they were not deaf or hard of understanding like the Reformed people.
 
U

unclefester

Guest
#70
#70
Crossfire said:
I simply don't understand why some can not accept the possibility that God is indeed so sovereign that He could create both angels and mankind with freewill and still not feel threatened. If man does not possess free will then that would mean that sin is the will of God which contradicts more scripture than one can list in one forum post.
Click to expand...
Our fallen nature is a direct result of us exercising our freewill towards those things that bring us sinful pleasure, fulfilling our carnal and selfish desires. It is to such a degree that God declared ... “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” Rom 3: 10-12. If exercising freewill to sin is one and the same as exercising freewill not to sin, why can't any of us do the latter without the Spirit of God ? If we can't choose not to sin on our own, and we clearly can't, we can't then claim that our cry for forgiveness is something that was born of our own choosing ... born of this same powerless attribute ... which is ultimately what this question of freewill is dealing with. Freewill to choose in no way affords us the power to change. On this basis then, maybe we can all agree that we have freewill ... but a freewill that is powerless to save us on it's own. Perhaps this is the distinction that first needs clarification.
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#71
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
60
0
#71
eternally-gratefull said:

it is twisted because of the way it is asked.

You should ask, who gave us the ability, and the things to chose to believe in. Not who gave us the will.

As Paul said, if Christ did not raise. OUR FAITH is futile and we are still dead in our sin. Our faith is in the power of God. not in the wisdom of men.



Did Christ die of our power? Did he rise of our Power? Are we convicted of our power. or by the law, prophets and words of God which were written by his power? is his gift of eternal life offered on our power? thus is our faith in our own power or the power of God?

The word made us clean. Who gave us the word? Our faith has set us free. who gave us the things to trust and be assured what God did, said and will do are true? Us??




Oh ye of little faith



Both. Gods freely chose to promise a redeemer not hours after sin entered the world. he chose to give us the law to lead us to Christ. he chose to give us the prophets so when Christ came, we would know who he is. He chose to give us the NT so we can be assured he did live, He did die, and he did raise from the dead. that WHOEVER (meaning anyone can do it) believes in him, will never die, but has eternal life.

We are the whoever. Do we believe or do we reject outright.
Click to expand...
Oh, O.K.
I didn't understand it as well as you E.G.
Obviously you are saying faith comes from us.
My friggin' bad. - "Ah.......ha,ha,ha!!!:):p:eek::confused:;):rolleyes::D"

I understand: it is God who gives us the choice, and we accept it of our own freewill............"Ahhhh,ha,ha,ha!!!:):p:eek::confused:;):rolleyes::D"

I'm am good in myself though. - - - - - - - - "Ahhhgh- - -"!! cough,cough(excuse the phlegm); - "aha,ha,ha!!!(As are you I'm sure)...."Ahhh,Ha,Ha!"
 
Last edited:
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#72
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
60
0
#72
E.G. said: "You should ask, who gave us the ability, and the things to chose to believe in. Not who gave us the will."

Really?
I shouldn't ask who gave us the will?
Who made the will?
Was it God or us?
Who made will? - God or mankind?
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#73
Oct 13, 2011
4,622
282
83
#73
unclefester said:
Our fallen nature is a direct result of us exercising our freewill towards those things that bring us sinful pleasure, fulfilling our carnal and selfish desires. It is to such a degree that God declared ... “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” Rom 3: 10-12. If exercising freewill to sin is one and the same as exercising freewill not to sin, why can't any of us do the latter without the Spirit of God ? If we can't choose not to sin on our own, and we clearly can't, we can't then claim that our cry for forgiveness is something that was born of our own choosing ... born of this same powerless attribute ... which is ultimately what this question of freewill is dealing with. Freewill to choose in no way affords us the power to change. On this basis then, maybe we can all agree that we have freewill ... but a freewill that is powerless to save us on it's own. Perhaps this is the distinction that first needs clarification.
Click to expand...
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#74
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
60
0
#74
We choose to follow God because we are good little urchins that intrinsically know right from wrong and choose the right. - -- -- --
"Ahhhh,Ha,Ha,Ha!!!
We choose to follow God because it is innately in us to not only know right from wrong(by reading scripture), but to choose it.
Ahhhh........Ha,ha,ha!
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#75
Oct 13, 2011
4,622
282
83
#75
eternally-gratefull said:
This is satans doing. he leads many astray because they are still in self. They chose a religion which fits their desires. and not the desires of God.

It does not mean many have not chosen God. This is what repentance is. And why there is only one faith. not many faiths. and one gospel. not many.
Click to expand...
Those who "chose" God did so because they were regenerated by Him. In their lost unregenerate state they didn't desire or want a single good thing of the God they saw as their enemy, bearing not the fruit of the Spirit but bearing fruit unto death. I know you don't fully agree on this tho (at least not as of now) bro, but that's another dime.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#76
#76
RickShafer said:
Oh, O.K.
I didn't understand it as well as you E.G.
Obviously you are saying faith comes from us.
My friggin' bad. - "Ah.......ha,ha,ha!!!:):p:eek::confused:;):rolleyes::D"
Click to expand...
Do you have a problem? Faith comes from us? how? What did I do that I had faith in?

you twisting things, and showing all those faces does not look well on you or your character my friend.
I understand: it is God who gives us the choice, and we accept it of our own freewill............"Ahhhh,ha,ha,ha!!!:):p:eek::confused:;):rolleyes::D"
Click to expand...
Is this not what a loving parent, and loving God would do? Do you want a dictator who forces you to do his will. or a loving father who loves you as you are?

I'm am good in myself though. - - - - - - - - "Ahhhgh- - -"!! cough,cough(excuse the phlegm); - "aha,ha,ha!!!(As are you I'm sure)...."Ahhh,Ha,Ha!"
Click to expand...
You are good with yourself? Maybe you need to look at God more. You would not be good in yourself. and you would learn to trust him.

What is your faith in anyway?? Your mocks show you do not have a clue what I believe or what I am saying. why doing you open your eyes and listen. maybe you would not be so hasty
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#77
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#77
tribesman said:
Those who "chose" God did so because they were regenerated by Him. In their lost unregenerate state they didn't desire or want a single good thing of the God they saw as their enemy, bearing not the fruit of the Spirit but bearing fruit unto death. I know you don't fully agree on this tho (at least not as of now) bro, but that's another dime.
Click to expand...
Is regeneration the same as 'born again' as far as you are concerned?

Where does the Bible speak of regeneration please?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#78
#78
RickShafer said:
We choose to follow God because we are good little urchins that intrinsically know right from wrong and choose the right. - -- -- --
Click to expand...
what does this have to do with having faith in Christ to save us? We can't chose to do right, that is WHY we need saved.
"Ahhhh,Ha,Ha,Ha!!!
We choose to follow God because it is innately in us to not only know right from wrong(by reading scripture), but to choose it.
Ahhhh........Ha,ha,ha!
Click to expand...
so we are saved by doing good? which is it? your hurting your own cause by insisting that we have to chose ot know how to do good to be saved. since when is that the gospel? Do you teach a gospel of works? I do not see a difference there
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#79
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
60
0
#79
Oh.....did I offend you?
Or did your own reliance on your freewill of faith?
Do you not know that faith is even a gift from God?
"that (faith) not of yourselves, lest any man should boast."
You said - "Do you have a problem? Faith comes from us? how? What did I do that I had faith in?"

But the bible says:
Ephesians 2:8-9King James Version (KJV) -

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
Last edited:
PS

PS

Senior Member
#80
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#80
RickShafer said:
Oh.....did I offend you?
Or did your own reliance on your freewill of faith?
Do you not know that faith is even a gift from God?
"that (faith) not of yourselves, lest any man should boast."
Do you have a problem? Faith comes from us? how? What did I do that I had faith in?
Ephesians 2:8-9

King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Click to expand...
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast"

The subject is Salvation, that is the gift of God and that is why we cannot boast, because God gifted it to us.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.