C
The myth of "head" vs "heart" knowledge
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Keswickians usually had nominal calvinistic background, but their teaching was not calvinist. Murray did some good things for the boer people, which I like. But this is not really strictly on-topic.
Do not confuse brain with mind. The brain is nothing more than an internal biological organ that decays along with the rest of our bodies. It is the mind that receves knowledge. The brain is only the biological storage unit. The mind is what may be equated with the "inner man." This is what servives beyond this life. It seems that mind and heart are some times used synomous in scripture, yet there are other times when they seem to be spoken of as two distinct things as in Phil. 4:7 - "And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." I don't know that I have an answer for this. If someone has a better understaning of this I would be intrested in hearing your thoughts on this.
Scripture does not contradict itself. They are always to be understood as one, even when they are spoken of in the form presented in Phil.4:7.
One can't have it right in "heart" and not "mind". Either one has it right in both or none. That's why not only how we live is important but also what we believe and teach. That is how fruit is discerned.
B
Bea22
Guest
The dichotomy is with man's knowledge and God's knowledge.
You can see things in a man's way, with man's intellect, and therefore not understand them in the heart.
But if you see them by revelation of God, you can have knowledge in the mind - the mind of Christ - and understand with the heart.
There is a difference, as even nature testifies of a difference, that the mind is not the heart and vice versa. But they can be in one accord - and it is promised in scripture.
Again, one is knowledge and understanding of man, the other is understanding and wisdom of God.
You can see things in a man's way, with man's intellect, and therefore not understand them in the heart.
But if you see them by revelation of God, you can have knowledge in the mind - the mind of Christ - and understand with the heart.
There is a difference, as even nature testifies of a difference, that the mind is not the heart and vice versa. But they can be in one accord - and it is promised in scripture.
Again, one is knowledge and understanding of man, the other is understanding and wisdom of God.
B
Bea22
Guest
So to add to that point, head knowledge is when you understand things as a man / woman... and you don't understand in the heart.
And knowing something in the heart is when you now have a revelation from God, which brings understanding and enlightenment in your mind.
And knowing something in the heart is when you now have a revelation from God, which brings understanding and enlightenment in your mind.
Very Interesting Thread Tribesman ...
Oldhermit ... I think you are coming closer to the issue with a good observation. The distinction between the physical brain and the operational 'mind' is important. I have addressed these distinctions and their relationship to scripture in more detail in other threads (references on request). The essence is that the untrained mind leans to 'reaction' or impulses to respond to desires of the flesh. Some call this instinct or primal urges etc. If a baby is hungry it cries, and it's call for attention is affirmed by the caring parent. Later in life, when one likes to eat, too many do so uncontrolled, relating taste and feeling (sense responses or 'flesh') to the action of eating. This is promoted by commercialism such as McDonald's and the food industry in general. As a result much of America and more and more of the world are becoming overweight, obese and diseased due to food and beverages they consume.
Back to the point, the idea is reaction to primal desires (flesh, the five senses:Touch, Taste, Smell, Hear, See) of an untrained and thus uncontrolled mind. The second aspect is the mind that has been positively reinforced to gain for SELF (where the Greek 'EGO' relates to I, Me, or Self). Thus the terms ID and EGO are used for the MIND that is either untrained and responds to flesh desires (ID) or to the MIND that has been reinforced to worldly gain (EGO) by the teachings "Of Men" (De-Mon).
The characteristic that distinguishes ID and EGO from the more highly trained mind is the concept of super (meaning above) ego (SuperEgo).
Now enter Tribesman's question to tie the concepts together:
Mere "Training" in skills and knowledge does not put one in position to understand and make wise decisions. Much knowledge and training and skills are towards worldly and materialistic things. A person then puts their security in the hands of their ability to practice a trade, hit a ball, make a speech, sell a widget or gadget and etc. This is a false security and a delusion (referring to the Biblical concept that in time, many would be given over to this 'strong delusion' where they place their security in worldly abilities, join with others of like-mind (such as unions or guilds or yes, religions).
Even *(indeed, almost because of) religious training is not adequate to bring a person to a saving knowledge. Knowing facts and history, names, dates and places, does not make a behavior change brought about by 'knowing' versus understanding the facts. Indeed, many, understanding the nature of evil, use it for their gain (albeit only for a short time). Thus the many false preachers, working for gain, power, status, pride, control in their churches and around the world.
To wrap up, as this post is getting long ...I think Tribesman has answered his own question from the opening post:
"Sometimes you will hear notions that the Pharisees were "religious experts" of their day and supposedly had a lot of "knowledge". Views like these are not uncommon but have no ground in facts. Although they were very zealous about their worship, they actually lacked knowledge. In reality they had gone astray from the path of the Saints of old and Jesus rebuked them for NOT having applicable knowledge (Luke 11:52). Paul likewise said that the unbelieving pharisees were indeed zealous for God, but not according to knowledge and that they were ignorant of God's righteousness (Rom.10:2-3). They were certainly sincere and commited in their zeal - but they were ignorant about that which was crucial and therefore - lost. This same thing is a reality today in christianity. "
To clarify that quote, the fact is, the pharisees THOUGHT they had knowledge and wisdom, but did not. Just as today's preachers. They have Bible School and Zionist 'head knowledge' and many run to them to have their ears itched and to be fed milk as mere babes. Just as that baby who cries to be fed gets their fix when a parent comes to their aid, being without knowledge and ability to feed themselves, so it is with today's laity who have fixated (fallen into a dementia) on worldly knowledge and been given over to a reprobate mind of thinking their union or religion or other organized clique can save them.
Thus, head knowledge can relate to facts and figures and worldly abilities, where as heart knowledge is a higher level (super, or above) the ID and EGO of material, worldly and fleshly things. Sorry for a long-winded explanation. I will break any further posts into multiple smaller segments, but wanted to present the conceptual basis in just one post ...
Regards,
Digital_Angel_316
C
Crossfire
Guest
Since the topic has turned toward one's conscience, there is now a third "knowledge" that needs to be taken into consideration; Spirit knowledge. Both our mind and emotions can be leading us in one direction when a small still voice appears which tells us to go in the completely opposite direction.
We are all called to be a Spirit filled, Spirit led people however, because believers will confess various levels of sin their lives and we know from scripture that to walk in the Spirit is to avoid fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, then it's a given that the vast majority of believers today are still being dominated by the flesh and not the Spirit. Apparently, our role in salvation is align our minds and emotions with the word of God so that we may discern the voice of the Holy Spirit more clearly and obey Him.
We are all called to be a Spirit filled, Spirit led people however, because believers will confess various levels of sin their lives and we know from scripture that to walk in the Spirit is to avoid fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, then it's a given that the vast majority of believers today are still being dominated by the flesh and not the Spirit. Apparently, our role in salvation is align our minds and emotions with the word of God so that we may discern the voice of the Holy Spirit more clearly and obey Him.
All true!
Relative to the thread topic I believe it is this distinction that is critical in dividing 'head' and 'heart'.
Even the preachers know their building worship, greasy grace, prosperity gospels, music worship and 501c cults are falling. We still must distinguish words from actions, knowledge from behavior. Dogma does not work because the head is asked to robotically obey, rather than to understand the deeper meanings, and understand the long range consequences, and the effects of our actions and attitudes on others. Dogma, propogated for too long has led us to a Zombie-Church, manipulated by greasy gracers.
This is a wonderful, thought provoking thread.
I would like to repeat something that is brought out, but in a bit different way that I think any learning of the ancient Hebrew language brings out. That is that true knowledge includes both heart and head. They didn’t even have words for what we label as heart, most things were expressed literally. But the literal words, to the ancient Hebrew, included the heart. I think that when their expression of love was to bring gifts it says it well.
We are physical, human. If we don’t translate the heart knowledge into our physical world, we just aren’t getting it. And likewise, if we don’t translate our head knowledge into heart knowledge, we are not understanding, either.
I would like to repeat something that is brought out, but in a bit different way that I think any learning of the ancient Hebrew language brings out. That is that true knowledge includes both heart and head. They didn’t even have words for what we label as heart, most things were expressed literally. But the literal words, to the ancient Hebrew, included the heart. I think that when their expression of love was to bring gifts it says it well.
We are physical, human. If we don’t translate the heart knowledge into our physical world, we just aren’t getting it. And likewise, if we don’t translate our head knowledge into heart knowledge, we are not understanding, either.
I agree!
The Super-Ego (remembering "super" means 'above' and "Ego"
means I, Me, Self) is "The Database" of our understanding of
scripture (the law written upon our hearts), that regulates "The
Head" knowledge that might lead us to reaction to primal desires
(the flesh, the five senses) - this being - THE ID,
or the craving for material and worldly and fleshly things - this
being - THE EGO.
Certainly there is a need to 'cover the flesh' in the sense that we
need food, shelter, clothing, and etc. It is when:
* FOOD becomes Cuisine, leads to obesity, disease,
over-consumption, food-industry greed, Ronald
McDonald, illegal immigrants to plant and harvest and
transport the products of the agri-industry and the meat
industry, ...
* SHELTER becomes McMansions, Under-Water
Mortgages, Real Estate Gods and Goddesses, Incessant
Development ...
* CLOTHING becomes Fashion, Attitude, Pride, ...
* KINDNESS becomes Hedonism, Promiscuity,
Fornication... and etc.
over-consumption, food-industry greed, Ronald
McDonald, illegal immigrants to plant and harvest and
transport the products of the agri-industry and the meat
industry, ...
* SHELTER becomes McMansions, Under-Water
Mortgages, Real Estate Gods and Goddesses, Incessant
Development ...
* CLOTHING becomes Fashion, Attitude, Pride, ...
* KINDNESS becomes Hedonism, Promiscuity,
Fornication... and etc.
That we fall into the ID and EGO that leads to suffering -- personal
and societal.
Lacking that Database of Knowledge, Understanding and Wisdom --
the Fruit of the Spirit of Right Living, that leads us to moderation,
temperance, self control, patience, perseverance, and love of
others as self, "The Works of the Flesh become manifest". We know,
that "those who do (and are involved in such things), shall not
inherit the Kingdom of God".
However one wish to name it, it is still about something that affects heart and mind alike. There's still no reason to make any distinctions. Making distinctions will ultimately mean a cloak either for adhering to heresy or live in the flesh. Either one has it "right" in heart and mind (or vice versa as there is no exact order) or one does not have it at all.
There is also something as "science falsely so called" (1Tim.6:20), which pretty much means gnosticism - a very real thing even today. But what we're talking about here is primarily neither about knowledge of demonic source (demons do have a lot of knowledge, also about us) nor about mere brain activity or understanding things "as a man". One has to grasp that the knowledge we're talking about here is divine in origin and is given in regeneration, affecting the whole (new) man.
This does not mean that christians can be "all knowing" of some kind. But there are things that all christians know, and where you can trace and discern a true believer from a dead religionist and hypocrite, where you can differ who is a minister of the gospel and who is a false teacher of a false gospel, where you can differ who is a shepherd of God and His house and who is a wolf in sheep's clothing and control freak of a sect/cult/false religion. Primarily this knowledge deals with the issue of sin, righteousness and judgment, the state of the lost and the nature of God's righteousness, which is Christ Jesus. All regenerate souls possesses such knowledge while all unregenerate souls, who may be sincere, zealous for God and committed to the bone in their religion, and yet are still dead in their sins, lack this knowledge because they are ignorant about what this knowledge confers.
As indicated, this does not mean that christians cannot be in error. They can be in error about many things, including eschatology or ecclesiology etc. But they will never be in error about the ground of their justification and salvation. They will believe the gospel (wherein God's righteousness is revealed) conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ ALONE. That's why the Bible says that those who do not believe the gospel are lost (Mark 16:16). The Bible also says that when a sinner is saved, he is given knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ (2Cor. 4:6). What is this knowledge? It is the knowledge of the person and work of Jesus Christ.
There certainly can be several kinds of errors. But error about the gospel, the ground of justification and salvation, the righteousness of God, is indicative of lostness. In Rom.10:1-4 Paul speaks of those who had a zeal of God, but they were lacking some crucial knowledge. And because they were lacking this knowledge, Paul judged them to be unregenerate. Because they were ignorant of the righteousness of God - the imputed righteousness of Christ as the ground of salvation, which is revealed in the gospel - they were still going about to establish a righteousness of their own.
And just to get this clear: Knowledge is not a condition or a prerequisite that the sinner has to meet before God will save them. Knowledge is given to the sinner when God saves them. It is a fruit of salvation. We're talking about the new man here, a man who has a new heart/mind.
Well, the head controls the heart if I know anything about the brain... so it makes sense that we should cultivate and guard it. I seem to remember a saying in the Bible... "My people perish for lack of knowledge." Using your head's pretty much common sense as long as you've got it focused on God.
I've never understood gnosticism, so I've never really believed in the soft murmurings of the Spirit infusing my love-center with the sevenfold essences of creaminess.
Yes, the Word of God says that those who reject knowledge will be destroyed - not saved. Both heart/head(mind) are equally affected by this knowledge spoken of here.
Beware the false teachers that foolishly chop up knowledge into heart vs head knowledge. They are not working for your good, even if they don't understand it.
L
LawofLove
Guest
The Bible says Love the Lord with all Thy
heart (feelings)
mind (understanding)
strength (power)
soul (Soul. Gr. psuchē, “breath,” “life,” or “soul.” Psuchē (plural, psuchai) is translated 40 times in the NT as “life” or “lives,” clearly with the meaning commonly attributed to the word “life”...that is the way you live your life)
Every thing should be under the control of God.
heart (feelings)
mind (understanding)
strength (power)
soul (Soul. Gr. psuchē, “breath,” “life,” or “soul.” Psuchē (plural, psuchai) is translated 40 times in the NT as “life” or “lives,” clearly with the meaning commonly attributed to the word “life”...that is the way you live your life)
Every thing should be under the control of God.
Mt 22:37
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Any takers on this verse that makes a distinction between the mind (dianoia) and the heart (kardia)?
When we hear the word, many times we receive it without understanding what God is saying. The word we hear and receive goes into the mind and is stored in the memory center waiting to be transferred into the heart with understanding. That process will take place through the plan of God that is ordained for the believer. We don't become critical of the word we hear through the natural mind even if it goes beyond our understanding. We rather receive the instruction or counsel that is given and we pray for understanding. What God does to answer our request comes in the plan of God through the details of that plan. In the plan of God the Holy Spirit brings the word to our remembrance that is stored in the memory center and opens up our understanding to what we have received. God wants us to apply and mix faith with the word we have been quickened by. Sometimes it may be years down the road before we are quickened in a certain area of God's counsel but God had prepared us with His word years in advance so that we would have His mind and His thoughts to deal with the situation. This is why it is so important to consistently be available to hear God's word being preached from a pastor-teacher in the midst of an assembly that God has raised up.
Psalm 119:11 says, 'Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against God.' The sin refers to missing the mark and going the wrong way outside the will of God. The word 'hide' means to store up and we store up the word in our 'heart'. The heart mentioned in this verse refers to the mind AND heart where the word has been stored as wisdom. The wisdom is experiential knowledge or knowledge that has been applied by faith with the result of gaining understanding (Prov 4:7). This understanding that we have in the heart is God's light because the word was transferred from the mind to the heart as the light of understanding (Ps 119:130, Eph 1:18).
Col 1:9
9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Here is a seeming debacle, can anyone explain this in (Lk 8:11,12)...
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts (kardia), lest they should believe and be saved.
How did the word get into the heart without understanding (v.19) and not be believed and therefore was unable to save the one that heard it? I believe that the one who heard the word went right 'IN' the heart that was by the wayside. The 'way side' is a well traveled road of hardships that hardens the heart over time. The preposition 'IN' refers to a fixed position upon the heart. This was a wayside hearer or one with with a hardened heart and the word entered into a fixed position upon the hardness of the heart to do a work there. They heard and received the word but did not keep hearing it and therefore the word could not do a work in the heart so that they could believe it and be saved. So, the Devil came (seeking who he can devour as a thief and murderer (1Pt 5:8, Jn 8:44), and took notice of what was going on and through the many devices of the fowls of the air snatched up the seed (to seize and carry off by force) before they could believe and be saved. This wayside hearer needed to keep hearing the word so that his heart could be broken up of its trouble (inner commotion) and hardness and be received and enter into a fertile broken (humble) soil of the heart to give him understanding and save him.
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Any takers on this verse that makes a distinction between the mind (dianoia) and the heart (kardia)?
When we hear the word, many times we receive it without understanding what God is saying. The word we hear and receive goes into the mind and is stored in the memory center waiting to be transferred into the heart with understanding. That process will take place through the plan of God that is ordained for the believer. We don't become critical of the word we hear through the natural mind even if it goes beyond our understanding. We rather receive the instruction or counsel that is given and we pray for understanding. What God does to answer our request comes in the plan of God through the details of that plan. In the plan of God the Holy Spirit brings the word to our remembrance that is stored in the memory center and opens up our understanding to what we have received. God wants us to apply and mix faith with the word we have been quickened by. Sometimes it may be years down the road before we are quickened in a certain area of God's counsel but God had prepared us with His word years in advance so that we would have His mind and His thoughts to deal with the situation. This is why it is so important to consistently be available to hear God's word being preached from a pastor-teacher in the midst of an assembly that God has raised up.
Psalm 119:11 says, 'Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against God.' The sin refers to missing the mark and going the wrong way outside the will of God. The word 'hide' means to store up and we store up the word in our 'heart'. The heart mentioned in this verse refers to the mind AND heart where the word has been stored as wisdom. The wisdom is experiential knowledge or knowledge that has been applied by faith with the result of gaining understanding (Prov 4:7). This understanding that we have in the heart is God's light because the word was transferred from the mind to the heart as the light of understanding (Ps 119:130, Eph 1:18).
Col 1:9
9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Here is a seeming debacle, can anyone explain this in (Lk 8:11,12)...
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts (kardia), lest they should believe and be saved.
How did the word get into the heart without understanding (v.19) and not be believed and therefore was unable to save the one that heard it? I believe that the one who heard the word went right 'IN' the heart that was by the wayside. The 'way side' is a well traveled road of hardships that hardens the heart over time. The preposition 'IN' refers to a fixed position upon the heart. This was a wayside hearer or one with with a hardened heart and the word entered into a fixed position upon the hardness of the heart to do a work there. They heard and received the word but did not keep hearing it and therefore the word could not do a work in the heart so that they could believe it and be saved. So, the Devil came (seeking who he can devour as a thief and murderer (1Pt 5:8, Jn 8:44), and took notice of what was going on and through the many devices of the fowls of the air snatched up the seed (to seize and carry off by force) before they could believe and be saved. This wayside hearer needed to keep hearing the word so that his heart could be broken up of its trouble (inner commotion) and hardness and be received and enter into a fertile broken (humble) soil of the heart to give him understanding and save him.
C
Crossfire
Guest
If there are no distinctions then, according to your logic, all who profess Jesus are saved and there is nothing that distinguishes the wheat from the tares, the sheep from the goats. That is exactly the problem with intellectualized Christianity. Far too many assumptions are made which derive from the carnal understanding (interpretations) of men (the sinful flesh). There is little, if no reliance at all, on the indwelling Holy Spirit, which explains a lot of the bad behavior that obviously accompanies intellectualized Christianity.
I can't get your conclusions straight as much as I try. I have not insinuated that all who "profess Jesus" are saved. Pretty clear from my posts, for those who read them. And your mentioning of "intellectualized Christianity" seems to bring us back to square one. Saving faith is a matter of mind/intellect as much as heart and false faith is also a matter of mind/intellect as much as heart. You just can't divide them.
How can I interpret you any other way than that you are saying that insisting on that the understanding spoken of here affects our minds means "carnal understanding" which comes from "the sinful flesh"? Do you not believe that the Holy Spirit enlightens the mind as much as the heart? Or is it in some murky place? If a person is indeed relying on the Holy Spirit it will be displayed in what he believes and teaches, the judgments he makes and how this is applied in his life.
Your last paragraph is either a subtle accusation against a tradition you dislike or a tiny trace of will to understand what it is saying. And what bad behavior? Does one have to give away free ice cream to the kids of the block to show good behavior? Let's compete who can give away most? I'm sure some people thought that Paul had bad behavior in Gal.1.Talking about people's preferences.
I think the discussion is confusing or confused by thinking; "in truth / reality" there can be no distinction in the honest believer between what the mind knows, and what the heart responds to.
Out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.
The real truth is however, that many a person, in fact, many a preacher, has 'head knowledge' knowing much history, language, culture, Bible references and such "knowledge", and yet, in practice, we see the greasy gracers, the prosperity gospels, the building worship and etc. This is why Jesus and Paul alike warned of false prophets, warning the scribes and pharisees "Woe to You" ... Jesus warning that many false teachers would come, Paul's warning, usings words such as "Foolish", BeWitched" and telling us that any one who preaches another Gospel is to be as anathema.
It sounds like the "are people really saved" debate, where one claims salvation at Baptism, and the argument goes, they are saved, but if they are not, then they were never saved ... sounds like a void of understanding that goes well beyond semantics.