Born Again Believers in the OT

[AnandaHya]

Nobody is denying that God did not put holy spirit on certain people in the OT. But they were not born again of it. God put it on them, and if they were not faithful in their walk, they could lose it. Saul lost it, David prayed that he would not lose it. As Christians, we are born of it. We are children of God by seed. That was not available in the OT. Christ came to make it available.

Solomon was an adopted son of God. He was sealed by God's promise and had the Holy Spirit as a Comforter and Guide.

1 Chronicles 28
6 Now He said to me, ‘It is your son Solomon who shall build My house and My courts; for I have chosen him to be My son, and I will be his Father. 7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom forever, if he is steadfast to observe My commandments and My judgments, as it is this day.’

 

[peacefulbeliever]

There was no need for the disciples to have the Holy Spirit inside them when they had the Bridegroom physically among them, just as there was no need for a phone call when the person you wish to speak to is right beside you. However when Jesus left them He sent the Holy Spirit to them as He did in the past to the Prophets and those who were faithful to God throughout ALL of time.

OT believers were BORN AGAIN. they received a NEW Heart and a NEW Spirit to replace their hearts of stone and allowed them to worship God in Spirit and truth.

here are some more verses where GOD FILLED them with HIS SPIRIT we have Bezalel, Daniel, :

Exodus 31:2-4
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 “See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. 3 And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, 4 to design artistic works, to work in gold, in silver, in bronze,

Daniel 4:9
“Belteshazzar, chief of the magicians, because I know that the Spirit of the Holy God is in you, and no secret troubles you, explain to me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and its interpretation.

I'll include this one too:
Malachi 3

13 And this is the second thing you do:
You cover the altar of the Lord with tears,
With weeping and crying;
So He does not regard the offering anymore,
Nor receive it with goodwill from your hands.
14 Yet you say, “For what reason?”
Because the Lord has been witness
Between you and the wife of your youth,
With whom you have dealt treacherously;
Yet she is your companion
And your wife by covenant.
15 But did He not make them one,
Having a remnant of the Spirit?
And why one?
He seeks godly offspring.
Therefore take heed to your spirit,
And let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away, for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

The verse above says that the comforter would not come until Christ departed so there is no way that the Holy Spirit was in the OT believers. Did God lead them through the wilderness? Yes Did God part the red sea for them? Yes Did God stop the lions' mouths when Daniel was put in the lion's den? Yes Did God keep the fire in the fiery furnace from burning Mesach, Shadrach and Abednego? Yes So God was with the OT believers but they were not born again of God.

But our relationship with God is totally different.

In Christ. . . . .

 

[AnandaHya]

mmm reading the whole chapter might help.... or at least this verse...]

John 16
25 “These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father. 26 In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; 27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God. 28 I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.”

do you understand the significance of these words? how Jesus will no longer pray to the Father for them, but assures them of God's love because of their faith in Him? the verses before confused His disciples, for He spoke in figurative language.

do you not hear plainly what Jesus is saying? this is where He announces that He and the Father are ONE. as I said before what do you need a phone call when you have the person standing right next to you. the Holy Spirit connects us to God but for a time the disciples had Jesus to lead, teach and guide them.

Read them again:

15 All things that the Father has are Mine.

 

[1Christianwarrior316]

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Seeing that they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them, Christ being the Rock, would that not qualify them as born again (circumcision of heart/belief)?

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

 

[peacefulbeliever]

mmm reading the whole chapter might help.... or at least this verse...]

John 16
25 “These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father. 26 In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; 27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God. 28 I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.”

do you understand the significance of these words? how Jesus will no longer pray to the Father for them, but assures them of God's love because of their faith in Him? the verses before confused His disciples, for He spoke in figurative language.

The verse that confused them was: "A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father." because it says in v17) "Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?" and "They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith." No question regarding the "Comforter" (Holy Spirit).

do you not hear plainly what Jesus is saying? this is where He announces that He and the Father are ONE. as I said before what do you need a phone call when you have the person standing right next to you. the Holy Spirit connects us to God but for a time the disciples had Jesus to lead, teach and guide them.

Read them again:

15 All things that the Father has are Mine

In regard to bolded - that's why Jesus said that he would send the Comforter (Holy Spirit) after he departed and that is when Holy Spirit became available to dwell within the believer.

In Christ. . . . .

 

[AnandaHya]

what Bible verses do you use to support your view that there was no in dwelling of the Holy Spirit before then?

I've given you other verses from both the OT and NT where it clearly states that God placed His SPIRIT WITHIN those men, but you chose to ignore them.

here are some more verses where GOD FILLED them with HIS SPIRIT we have Bezalel, Daniel, :

Exodus 31:2-4
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 “See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. 3 And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, 4 to design artistic works, to work in gold, in silver, in bronze,

Daniel 4:9
“Belteshazzar, chief of the magicians, because I know that the Spirit of the Holy God is in you, and no secret troubles you, explain to me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and its interpretation.

notice it says IN and HAVE FILLED. not UPON

hey Johnathon here it is in the KJV:

Exodus 31
3And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

 

[peacefulbeliever]

what Bible verses do you use to support your view that there was no in dwelling of the Holy Spirit before then?

I've given you other verses from both the OT and NT where it clearly states that God placed His SPIRIT WITHIN those men, but you chose to ignore them.

notice it says IN and HAVE FILLED. not UPON

hey Johnathon here it is in the KJV:

Exodus 31
3And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Spirit "upon" 1st usage: Numbers 11:17,25,29 And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee and will put it upon them:. . . 25) And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him and took of the spirit that was upon him and gave it unto the seventy elders. . .29). . .would God that all the LORD's people were prophets, and the the LORD would put his spirit upon them!
(Numbers 24:2, Judges 3:10, 6:34, 11:29, 14:19, 15:14; 1 Sam. 10:6, 10:10, 11:6, 16:13, 19:20,23; 2 Kings 2:9, 2 Chronicles 12:18, 15:1, 20:14, 24:20; Isaiah 11:2, 42:1, 44:3 59:21, 61:1; Ezekiel 11:5, 39:29; Joel 2:28,29) Although, Jesus proved my point by saying: Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away, for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Daniel 4:9 “Belteshazzar, chief of the magicians, because I know that the Spirit of the Holy God is in you, and no secret troubles you, explain to me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and its interpretation.

BTW, you might want to read the above verse a little closer: "O Belteshazzar master of the magicians because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee. . . ." I don't believe he was speaking of the "Holy Spirit" here.

In Christ. . .

 

[AnandaHya]

going to ignore Exodus 31?

You wish to make a distinction of the words UPON and IN. ok. that still does not answer the verse I gave you.

as for the verse concerning Daniel. Are you implying that Daniel had the spirit of demonic false gods in him and not YHWH?

Jesus does not prove your point, you just refuse to address the issue of why you would make a phone call if the person is standing next to you.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

going to ignore Exodus 31?

You wish to make a distinction of the words UPON and IN. ok. that still does not answer the verse I gave you.

as for the verse concerning Daniel. Are you implying that Daniel had the spirit of demonic false gods in him and not YHWH?

Jesus does not prove your point, you just refuse to address the issue of why you would make a phone call if the person is standing next to you.

I don't claim to understand everything - but I do think there are only 12 verses in the OT regarding "spirit within". There are 55 verses "spirit upon"; so along with the majority of scripture and since Christ said that the Holy Spirit wouldn't be given until he goes to the Father then that is what I believe.

as for the verse concerning Daniel. Are you implying that Daniel had the spirit of demonic false gods in him and not YHWH?

I believe the verse you quoted was Daniel 4:9

Daniel 4:9 “Belteshazzar, chief of the magicians, because I know that the Spirit of the Holy God is in you, and no secret troubles you, explain to me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and its interpretation.

That doesn't say Daniel; it says Belteshazzar.

In Christ. . . . .

 

[AnandaHya]

I don't claim to understand everything - but I do think there are only 12 verses in the OT regarding "spirit within". There are 55 verses "spirit upon"; so along with the majority of scripture and since Christ said that the Holy Spirit wouldn't be given until he goes to the Father then that is what I believe.

that is your choice but I believe you are mistaken. it is not the quanity of scriptures that matter if even ONE shows that there were born again believer in the OT, then I chose to believe GOD not doctrines of men. only 12 about the "spirit within"? and that is not enough to make you rethink your false doctrine? in the end its between you and God.

I believe the verse you quoted was Daniel 4:9

That doesn't say Daniel; it says Belteshazzar.

In Christ. . . . .

have you read Daniel 4?

... they are the same person, Belteshazzar is what the king renamed Daniel...

Daniel 4
8 But at last Daniel came before me (his name is Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god; in him is the Spirit of the Holy God), and I told the dream before him, saying: 9 “Belteshazzar, chief of the magicians, because I know that the Spirit of the Holy God is in you, and no secret troubles you, explain to me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and its interpretation.

However you probably read the King James version and not the New King James...

8But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name was Belteshazzar, according to the name of my God, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, saying,

9O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.

It doesn't change the point I'm trying to make it just shows that the King was wrong because he was polytheistic.

the question stands, are you implying that Daniel did not have the HOLY Spirit of God but of the spirit of the king's false deities in him?

PS. yes there is a difference between having the Holy Spirit upon and within a person. It is in the NEW testament as well, example: Judas Iscariot healed in the name of Jesus and cast out demons and had the Holy Spirit UPON him but not within.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

that is your choice but I believe you are mistaken. it is not the quanity of scriptures that matter if even ONE shows that there were born again believer in the OT, then I chose to believe GOD not doctrines of men. only 12 about the "spirit within"? and that is not enough to make you rethink your false doctrine? in the end its between you and God.

You still don't get it but that's okay. The OT believers were not the sons and daughters of God; born again of incorruptible seed and therefore having the holy Spirit within them. . . .

have you read Daniel 4?

... they are the same person, Belteshazzar is what the king renamed Daniel...

Daniel 4
8 But at last Daniel came before me (his name is Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god; in him is the Spirit of the Holy God), and I told the dream before him, saying: 9 “Belteshazzar, chief of the magicians, because I know that the Spirit of the Holy God is in you, and no secret troubles you, explain to me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and its interpretation.

However you probably read the King James version and not the New King James...

8But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name was Belteshazzar, according to the name of my God, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, saying,

9O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.

It doesn't change the point I'm trying to make it just shows that the King was wrong because he was polytheistic.

the question stands, are you implying that Daniel did not have the HOLY Spirit of God but of the spirit of the king's false deities in him?

PS. yes there is a difference between having the Holy Spirit upon and within a person. It is in the NEW testament as well, example: Judas Iscariot healed in the name of Jesus and cast out demons and had the Holy Spirit UPON him but not within.

I apologize but I'm the one who didn't read the context! I was just looking at it through the King being polytheistic and I believe it was his (the King's) gods that are being spoken of here at least in the King's point of view. Yes, I do believe that Daniel had the spirit of God upon him.

In Christ. . . .

 

[Grandpa]

You still don't get it but that's okay. The OT believers were not the sons and daughters of God; born again of incorruptible seed and therefore having the holy Spirit within them. . . .

Well why not?

Are you saying that people could not have faith in God's perfect Sacrifice until after Jesus death?

Surely you are not implying God could not have given anyone, anywhere the things He gives us now??

Gen 6:2-3
2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

 

[AnandaHya]

You still don't get it but that's okay. The OT believers were not the sons and daughters of God; born again of incorruptible seed and therefore having the holy Spirit within them. . . .

that is a false statement. here is the text where GOD calls Solomon HIS son. There are others that show that God has sons and daughters in the OT as well as the NT.

1 Chronicles 28:6
And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.

Besides Solomon we have Adam:

Luke 3
which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.


You do not think King David was a born again believer?

Psalm 51
10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Ezekiel 36:26-28
King James Version (KJV)
26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Who is God speaking to in these verses?

 

[AnandaHya]

I apologize but I'm the one who didn't read the context!

um yeah you objected that the text was not referring to Daniel....

I was just looking at it through the King being polytheistic and I believe it was his (the King's) gods that are being spoken of here at least in the King's point of view.

yes perhaps from the king's point of view or it could be a translation error. I read from the NKJV and you quoted from the KJV. I don't know enough Hebrew to distinguish. Avinu, help?

Yes, I do believe that Daniel had the spirit of God upon him.

In Christ. . . .

and I believe that Daniel had the Spirit of God WITHIN him.

anyways here are some more verses for those who care to have them..Joseph is said to have the Spirit of God IN him..

Genesis 41

38And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

39And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, Forasmuch as God hath shewed thee all this, there is none so discreet and wise as thou art:

40Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.

 

[mpaper345]

The Spirit did work among the people in the Old Testament,but it is not the same as in the New Testament.

We have the Spirit in the New Testament in a way that they could not have in the Old Testament.

God was working among them,but they could not be regenerated to have spiritual salvation.

If they could of had spiritual salvation in the Old Testament,Jesus would not of had to come.

Jesus is the one who gives spiritual salvation,and before that they could not have spiritual salvation,and it is because of the Spirit that we have salvation,so they could of not had the Spirit like in the New Testament.

They were not born again in the Old Testament,but they were saints,if they had the blood of animals to cover their sins,and followed the Old Testament tabernacle plan,and when Jesus came His shed blood took away their sins,and they received the Spirit that gave them spiritual salvation.

Their sins could not be removed in the Old Testament,for every year there was a remembrance of their past sins,that had to be covered again,so they could not receive the Spirit to be born again.

They were saints that received spiritual salvation when Jesus shed His blood and poured out His Spirit for people to receive.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Well why not?

Are you saying that people could not have faith in God's perfect Sacrifice until after Jesus death?

Surely you are not implying God could not have given anyone, anywhere the things He gives us now??

Gen 6:2-3
2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

The OT believers had faith in the prophecy of Christ first coming - we have faith in Christ birth, death and resurrection - and in his second coming.

 

[tribesman]

The Spirit did work among the people in the Old Testament,but it is not the same as in the New Testament.

We have the Spirit in the New Testament in a way that they could not have in the Old Testament.

God was working among them,but they could not be regenerated to have spiritual salvation.

If they could of had spiritual salvation in the Old Testament,Jesus would not of had to come.

Jesus is the one who gives spiritual salvation,and before that they could not have spiritual salvation,and it is because of the Spirit that we have salvation,so they could of not had the Spirit like in the New Testament.

They were not born again in the Old Testament,but they were saints,if they had the blood of animals to cover their sins,and followed the Old Testament tabernacle plan,and when Jesus came His shed blood took away their sins,and they received the Spirit that gave them spiritual salvation.

Their sins could not be removed in the Old Testament,for every year there was a remembrance of their past sins,that had to be covered again,so they could not receive the Spirit to be born again.

They were saints that received spiritual salvation when Jesus shed His blood and poured out His Spirit for people to receive.

Scripture indicates that the OT Saints were indeed born again. They also had atonement in the sacrifices and at Yom Kippur (the day of Atonement, where the High Priest atoned for them) this all pointing to the ultimate sacrifice that would redeem them. There is a differance in the relation to the Spirit in the sense that baptism of the Spirit did not occur before the day of Pentecost, after Christ's ascension. But indeed the OT Saints "had" the Spirit. Your phrase "spiritual salvation" is not scriptural. God saves the whole being of man.

 

[peterT]

The OT believers had faith in the prophecy of Christ first coming - we have faith in Christ birth, death and resurrection - and in his second coming.

The OT believers also had faith in God’s word about jesus’s death

PS22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosedme: they pierced my hands and my feet.17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

The OT believers also had faith in God’s word about the second coming of Christ and the end of the world.

Daniel 2 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet [that were] of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

And see.

Daniel 7 9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

That includes Abraham and all the prophets and all that loved God and his word.
Because the rest of the dead live not a gene until the 1000s years are finished.

 

[1Christianwarrior316]

Psa 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
Psa 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

 

[krisbrian]

Obviously, we have advantages living in a post Christ world than in a pre-Christ world.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: