Born Again Believers in the OT

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AnandaHya

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Its not just a NEW Testament doctrine. Dispensationalism is a lie.

God placing His Holy Spirit within people is written throughout the WHOLE OT. Abraham was saved by FAITH.

here are a few more verses that reveal when God placed His Holy Spirit within people:

God is the Same yesterday, today and Tomorrow

Isaiah 63
11 Then he remembered the days of old,
Moses and his people, saying:
“Where is He who brought them up out of the sea
With the shepherd of His flock?
Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them,
12 Who led them by the right hand of Moses,
With His glorious arm,
Dividing the water before them
To make for Himself an everlasting name,
13 Who led them through the deep,
As a horse in the wilderness,
That they might not stumble?”
 
Someone can have the holy ghost and not be saved though..The holy spirit leads a person to all truth.. That truth is Jesus. Purified even as he is pure , formed in the person.
 
Thankyou AnandaHya.
Your right, Ive seen this in the OT as well. :)
In fact many tmes, there is refrance to salvation by faith in the ot.
As I understand, salvation is given for both those in the ot and nt through faith.
I read someone here saying it was made for both, but cannot remember who.
Can you or others, shed more scripture and interpitation on this?
But one still sees the law, covanant given, so this does bring alot more discussion I hope on this. :)

God bless
pickles
 
AnandaHya said:
Its not just a NEW Testament doctrine. Dispensationalism is a lie.

God placing His Holy Spirit within people is written throughout the WHOLE OT. Abraham was saved by FAITH.

here are a few more verses that reveal when God placed His Holy Spirit within people:

God is the Same yesterday, today and Tomorrow

Isaiah 63
11 Then he remembered the days of old,
Moses and his people, saying:
“Where is He who brought them up out of the sea
With the shepherd of His flock?
Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them,
12 Who led them by the right hand of Moses,
With His glorious arm,
Dividing the water before them
To make for Himself an everlasting name,
13 Who led them through the deep,
As a horse in the wilderness,
That they might not stumble?”
Click to expand...

Amen! The gospel was always preached.
Gal.3

[6] Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
[7] Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
[8] And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
[9] So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
[10] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
[13] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
[14] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Click to expand...
 
AnandaHya said:
Its not just a NEW Testament doctrine. Dispensationalism is a lie.

God placing His Holy Spirit within people is written throughout the WHOLE OT. Abraham was saved by FAITH.

here are a few more verses that reveal when God placed His Holy Spirit within people:

God is the Same yesterday, today and Tomorrow

Isaiah 63
11 Then he remembered the days of old,
Moses and his people, saying:
“Where is He who brought them up out of the sea
With the shepherd of His flock?
Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them,
12 Who led them by the right hand of Moses,
With His glorious arm,
Dividing the water before them
To make for Himself an everlasting name,
13 Who led them through the deep,
As a horse in the wilderness,
That they might not stumble?”
Click to expand...

Prior to pentecost, God could place holy spirit in people, but it could be lost. Saul lost it. After the Bathsheba incident, David prayed that God would not take David's holy spirit from him. Since pentecost, when a person acts on Rom 10:9, holy spirit is born within. We are sealed with it. It is the earnest, the guarantee of our salvation.

Dispensationalism is not a lie. God is the same, but the way He deals with people has changed.
 
shroom2 said:
Prior to pentecost, God could place holy spirit in people, but it could be lost. Saul lost it. After the Bathsheba incident, David prayed that God would not take David's holy spirit from him. Since pentecost, when a person acts on Rom 10:9, holy spirit is born within. We are sealed with it. It is the earnest, the guarantee of our salvation.

Dispensationalism is not a lie. God is the same, but the way He deals with people has changed.
Click to expand...

love you shroom but as you know we disagree. I'll bring some more scriptues and we can discuss it ;)
 
pickles said:
Thankyou AnandaHya.
Your right, Ive seen this in the OT as well. :)
In fact many tmes, there is refrance to salvation by faith in the ot.
As I understand, salvation is given for both those in the ot and nt through faith.
I read someone here saying it was made for both, but cannot remember who.
Can you or others, shed more scripture and interpitation on this?
But one still sees the law, covanant given, so this does bring alot more discussion I hope on this. :)

God bless
pickles
Click to expand...

Yes I love reading the Bible. Let me search for a few and post them. LOL I should be studying for my oceanography exam or writting my application letter to student teach in South Africa. But I'd rather read my Bible. :)

well so I don't feel so guilty for procrasinating will you guys pray that I find the right words to express my love of learning and enthusiasm for the program? I made a blog. lol my first one ever. it has the school we will be teaching at and some of my lesson plan ideas. you can ck it out and pm me ideas I would love it!

Imfundo

yeah I know back to the topic on hand:

Bible verses revealing that the Born Again doctrine can be found in the OT:

Ezekiel 11:18-20

New King James Version (NKJV)

18 And they will go there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there. 19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them,[a] and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

Ezekiel 18:30-32

New King James Version (NKJV)

30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

Ezekiel 36:25-27

New King James Version (NKJV)

25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Jeremiah 31
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[a] says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Numbers 11:29
Then Moses said to him, “Are you zealous for my sake? Oh, that all the LORD’s people were prophets and that the LORD would put His Spirit upon them!”

Ezekiel 3:23-25

New King James Version (NKJV)

23 So I arose and went out into the plain, and behold, the glory of the Lord stood there, like the glory which I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell on my face. 24 Then the Spirit entered me and set me on my feet, and spoke with me and said to me: “Go, shut yourself inside your house. 25 And you, O son of man, surely they will put ropes on you and bind you with them, so that you cannot go out among them.

Those are just a few, Thanks Be to God for His many mercies :) !

Ok I have to go to class now :)

I will find more verses about how salvation is by Faith later ;)

here are a few:

  1. Romans 9:32
    Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
  2. Galatians 2:16
    knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
 
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Its not just a NEW Testament doctrine. Dispensationalism is a lie.

God placing His Holy Spirit within people is written throughout the WHOLE OT. Abraham was saved by FAITH.

here are a few more verses that reveal when God placed His Holy Spirit within people:

God is the Same yesterday, today and Tomorrow
Click to expand...


That is a BIG AMEN, sis. :)
 
Someone can have the holy ghost and not be saved though..The holy spirit leads a person to all truth.. That truth is Jesus. Purified even as he is pure , formed in the person.
Click to expand...

You cannot have the Holy Spirit if you do not have Yeshua in your heart. You can be convicted and pulled by the Holy Spirit, but not in you. The rest of your statement is right on. Shalom
 
the kjv does not say where is he that put his holy spirit within them. it says within him. him who? he that brought them up out of the sea. which is jesus not moses. so it is saying the holy spirit was in god leading the people of israel.
 
I have read all your posts but I am still bewildered about what happened on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2. We know that God placed His Holy Spirit within people before Christ, but there was a change after Christ. One of the changes seems to involve prophets sent to explain what God wants us to do. I don’t think God sent any prophets after the Day of Pentecost.

I love reading posting about the OT! Someone said that learning of God in the OT is like going to elementary school, reading the NT is graduating to high school. Without a good foundation of elementary learning, high school gets all mixed up. Everyone God chose to write His words for the NT had solid training in the OT, yet many of even our ministers do not have that.
 
shroom2 said:
Prior to pentecost, God could place holy spirit in people, but it could be lost. Saul lost it. After the Bathsheba incident, David prayed that God would not take David's holy spirit from him. Since pentecost, when a person acts on Rom 10:9, holy spirit is born within. We are sealed with it. It is the earnest, the guarantee of our salvation.

Dispensationalism is not a lie. God is the same, but the way He deals with people has changed.
Click to expand...

Saul was not God's chosen. Saul was the peoples chosen.

David was God's chosen.

Abraham is a prime example of a born again believer in the OT.

Genesis 15:1,6,12,17
1After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
6And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
12And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
17And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.

Abraham had visions, he dreamed dreams. God did something very special with Abraham. Abraham believed in the Lord and it was counted to him for Righteousness!

Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Hallelujah! God will provide Himself a Lamb for our Sacrifice!!

Abraham had faith in God and KNEW God would provide. Abraham knew the less would be blessed by the Greater. The Holy Spirit revealed these things to Abraham. Just like the Holy Spirit reveals these same things to us today.

We are seed of Abraham that believe God by Faith and that God has provided Himself a Lamb for a sacrifice for us. Born again believers are Abrahams seed.

That means Abraham was the first. That means we get saved and believe just like Abraham, doesn't it??? That's what it means to me...
 
Grandpa said:
Saul was not God's chosen. Saul was the peoples chosen.

David was God's chosen.

Abraham is a prime example of a born again believer in the OT.

Genesis 15:1,6,12,17
1After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
6And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
12And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
17And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.

Abraham had visions, he dreamed dreams. God did something very special with Abraham. Abraham believed in the Lord and it was counted to him for Righteousness!

Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Hallelujah! God will provide Himself a Lamb for our Sacrifice!!

Abraham had faith in God and KNEW God would provide. Abraham knew the less would be blessed by the Greater. The Holy Spirit revealed these things to Abraham. Just like the Holy Spirit reveals these same things to us today.

We are seed of Abraham that believe God by Faith and that God has provided Himself a Lamb for a sacrifice for us. Born again believers are Abrahams seed.

That means Abraham was the first. That means we get saved and believe just like Abraham, doesn't it??? That's what it means to me...
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Abraham was a wonderful believer. But he was not born again. It simply was not available until the Day of Pentecost.
 
shroom2 said:
Abraham was a wonderful believer. But he was not born again. It simply was not available until the Day of Pentecost.
Click to expand...


Where was Lazarus in heaven. In Abrahams bosom.

Unless you are born of water and of spirit you will not enter into the kingdom of God.

And yet Abraham is absolutely there.

And Enoch. He walked with God. and God took him. Where? To His kingdom.

It is by faith that a person is born again. To say that people could not have faith, or that it was unavailable before a certain point is incorrect.

The people in the OT had faith in what will be, we have faith in what already happened. But it is the same faith in God.
 
RedTent said:
I have read all your posts but I am still bewildered about what happened on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2. We know that God placed His Holy Spirit within people before Christ, but there was a change after Christ. One of the changes seems to involve prophets sent to explain what God wants us to do. I don’t think God sent any prophets after the Day of Pentecost.
Click to expand...
yes there are New testament prophets. God still sent them...

Acts 11:27-29
New King James Version (NKJV)
27 And in these days prophets came from Jerusalem to Antioch. 28 Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar. 29 Then the disciples, each according to his ability, determined to send relief to the brethren dwelling in Judea.

Pentecost fullfilled prophecies in the Old testament concerning Jesus our Messiah.

Acts 2:21 fulfills Joel 2:28–32
Acts 2:28 fulfills Psalm 16:8–11
Acts 2:35 fulfills Psalm 110:1

I love reading posting about the OT!
Click to expand...
ME TOO!
 
Grandpa said:
Where was Lazarus in heaven. In Abrahams bosom.
Click to expand...
I assume you're referring to the parable in Luke 16. That Lazarus was a character in the parable. Abraham is dead, awaiting the resurrection of the just.

Unless you are born of water and of spirit you will not enter into the kingdom of God.
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Right.

And yet Abraham is absolutely there.
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No, Abraham is dead, awaiting the resurrection. he died, not having received the promises (Heb 11:13).

And Enoch. He walked with God. and God took him. Where? To His kingdom.
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No. If God took him to heaven, he could take anyone to heaven based on their walk, and it would not have been necessary for Christ. Enoch was transported, as Philip was in Acts 8:39,40.

It is by faith that a person is born again. To say that people could not have faith, or that it was unavailable before a certain point is incorrect.
Click to expand...
Correct. I did not say it was impossible to have faith. It was impossible for them to become born again because that was not available until Pentecost.

The people in the OT had faith in what will be, we have faith in what already happened. But it is the same faith in God.
Click to expand...
Right. But the new birth, becoming born again of holy spirit, was not available until Jesus Christ came to make it available.
 
Grandpa said:
Where was Lazarus in heaven. In Abrahams bosom.

Unless you are born of water and of spirit you will not enter into the kingdom of God.

And yet Abraham is absolutely there.

And Enoch. He walked with God. and God took him. Where? To His kingdom.

It is by faith that a person is born again. To say that people could not have faith, or that it was unavailable before a certain point is incorrect.

The people in the OT had faith in what will be, we have faith in what already happened. But it is the same faith in God.
Click to expand...

and we also have these verses to show that Abraham, Jacob and Isaac are not dead either..

Matthew 22:32
‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Mark 12:27
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

Luke 20:38
For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”

these verse makes you think about the fifth seal. at least it does me:

Matthew 27
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Revelation 6

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

notice the words "killed as they were" ?

also they came out of the grave AFTER Jesus resurrection so He is still the FIRST raised from the dead.
 
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OT believers couldn't be born again because it was not available until the day of Pentecost.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the comforter is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth which proceedeth form the Father, he shall testify of me.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away, for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Acts 1:4. . . . .commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem but wait for the promise of the Father which ye have heard of (from) me.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. . . . . .4) And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
 
peacefulbeliever said:
OT believers couldn't be born again because it was not available until the day of Pentecost.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the comforter is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth which proceedeth form the Father, he shall testify of me.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away, for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Acts 1:4. . . . .commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem but wait for the promise of the Father which ye have heard of (from) me.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. . . . . .4) And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Click to expand...

There was no need for the disciples to have the Holy Spirit inside them when they had the Bridegroom physically among them, just as there was no need for a phone call when the person you wish to speak to is right beside you. However when Jesus left them He sent the Holy Spirit to them as He did in the past to the Prophets and those who were faithful to God throughout ALL of time.

OT believers were BORN AGAIN. they received a NEW Heart and a NEW Spirit to replace their hearts of stone and allowed them to worship God in Spirit and truth.

here are some more verses where GOD FILLED them with HIS SPIRIT we have Bezalel, Daniel, :

Exodus 31:2-4
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 “See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. 3 And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, 4 to design artistic works, to work in gold, in silver, in bronze,

Daniel 4:9
“Belteshazzar, chief of the magicians, because I know that the Spirit of the Holy God is in you, and no secret troubles you, explain to me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and its interpretation.

I'll include this one too:
Malachi 3

13 And this is the second thing you do:
You cover the altar of the Lord with tears,
With weeping and crying;
So He does not regard the offering anymore,
Nor receive it with goodwill from your hands.
14 Yet you say, “For what reason?”
Because the Lord has been witness
Between you and the wife of your youth,
With whom you have dealt treacherously;
Yet she is your companion
And your wife by covenant.
15 But did He not make them one,
Having a remnant of the Spirit?
And why one?
He seeks godly offspring.
Therefore take heed to your spirit,
And let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth.
 
AnandaHya said:
There was no need for the disciples to have the Holy Spirit inside them when they had the Bridegroom physically among them, just as there was no need for a phone call when the person you wish to speak to is right beside you. However when Jesus left them He sent the Holy Spirit to them as He did in the past to the Prophets and those who were faithful to God throughout ALL of time.

OT believers were BORN AGAIN. they received a NEW Heart and a NEW Spirit to replace their hearts of stone and allowed them to worship God in Spirit and truth.

here are some more verses where GOD FILLED them with HIS SPIRIT we have Bezalel, Daniel, :

Exodus 31:2-4
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 “See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. 3 And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, 4 to design artistic works, to work in gold, in silver, in bronze,

Daniel 4:9
“Belteshazzar, chief of the magicians, because I know that the Spirit of the Holy God is in you, and no secret troubles you, explain to me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and its interpretation.

I'll include this one too:
Malachi 3

13 And this is the second thing you do:
You cover the altar of the Lord with tears,
With weeping and crying;
So He does not regard the offering anymore,
Nor receive it with goodwill from your hands.
14 Yet you say, “For what reason?”
Because the Lord has been witness
Between you and the wife of your youth,
With whom you have dealt treacherously;
Yet she is your companion
And your wife by covenant.
15 But did He not make them one,
Having a remnant of the Spirit?
And why one?
He seeks godly offspring.
Therefore take heed to your spirit,
And let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth.
Click to expand...
Nobody is denying that God did not put holy spirit on certain people in the OT. But they were not born again of it. God put it on them, and if they were not faithful in their walk, they could lose it. Saul lost it, David prayed that he would not lose it. As Christians, we are born of it. We are children of God by seed. That was not available in the OT. Christ came to make it available.
 
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