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DinoDillinger said:
My Sabbath rest is found here,

Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
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I agree with that and SDA's do not teach salvation by works for the Bible says that by grace we are saved through faith.
 
mpaper345 said:
I do not know much of the seventh day adventists,but I will address 2 things.

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ(Colossians 2:14-17).


Jesus took the physical ordinances of the Old Testament and nailed them to His cross,taking them out of the way,because they were against us,including the sabbath days,because they could not provide spiritual salvation.


10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear(Isaiah 28:10-12).


In the New Testament when you receive the Spirit,you are obeying the sabbath,and it is a spiritual rest,instead of a physical day of rest.


Yet they would not hear,but want to tell people to keep the physical sabbath that Jesus nailed to His cross,and took out of the way.


The Bible says that which is natural is first,then that which is spiritual.


The Old Testament is physical blessings with no spiritual blessing to be saved spiritually,so the sabbath days cannot perfect anybody for salvation,which the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath.


2But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting(Micah 5:2).


It says that when the Son comes He will be from everlasting,which means He is God with no beginning,in which the Bible says He shall be called the mighty God,which means He will be God manifest in flesh,and the one that is to be ruler unto God,is the man Christ Jesus,which means Jesus is fully God and fully man,but never an angel.He is God in a visible manifestation.



8Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever(Hebrews 13:8).


8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty(Revelation 1:8).


Jesus never changes and is always God.



Since Jesus is God with no beginning,and always is God,how did He turn in to an angel,and if He was an angel first,how did He turn in to God.


When does an angel have no beginning like Jesus,for they are created beings,so how was Jesus an angel first,and an angel does not turn in to God.


14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen(1 Timothy 6:14-16).


How can Jesus be an angel,and then have this bestowed upon Him,to be exalted like this,when God said He does not give His glory to another,in Hebrews God said He never allowed any angel to sit at His right hand,and all power in heaven and earth is given to Jesus.


God said there is no God beside Him(Isaiah 44:8),and there was no God formed before Him,and there will be no God formed after Him(Isaiah 43:10-11),so Jesus cannot be an angel that turned in to God,and we know Jesus is God,for the Bible says God was manifest in the flesh.


Jesus cannot be an angel who was exalted to be God,especially when the Bible portrays Him as the Almighty,with no beginning,and the only ruler,who no man can see,and no man will ever see,which means Jesus is the invisible God who showed us a visible manifestation.


Also the Bible says the name of Jesus is the name that is above all names,not only in this world,but in the world to come,so if Jesus was an angel first named Michael,then how did He get such an exalted name,when Solomon said the heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain God,so how much less this temple,but God said My name will be there,meaning that God's name represents who He is,and how can an angel named Michael,end up with a name that is above all names in the world to come.


Also the Bible says the angels are ministering spirits sent to minister to those who shall inherit salvation,and the angels desire to look in to the salvation of the saints,and the angels are last on the authority structure of God,with men and women being above them,because people will have a glorified body like God's glorified body,which the angels will never have,and rule with Jesus on earth,which the angels will never be able to do,so are people who are saved greater than Jesus when He was an angel,but we know Jesus is always greater than us,so He is always God.



17And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
18And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?
21But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.
22And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God(Judges 13:17-22).


In the Old Testament God appeared in flesh to Abraham,and appeared in an angel form to Monoah and his wife,for Manoah said they have seen God.


The only way you can see the invisible God is if shows a manifestation of Himself,which He appeared in human form to Abraham,in which Abraham called Him LORD,and appeared unto Monoah and his wife,in which Manoah said they seen God,and that is why God said why do you ask after My name seeing it is secret.


When the Bible says the angel of God went before Israel,does not mean that Jesus was an angel first,but God was in an angelic form,and was God Himself leading Israel.Since God was in angelic form it was not an angel personally,and God put off that angelic form,like He put off the human form that He used to show Himself to Abraham,for it was not a real human born of parents,but a manifestation of God,like the angel that went before Israel was not a real angel created by God,but a manifestation of God.


21And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night(Exodus 13:21).


14And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night(Numbers 14:14).


We see that it was God who went before Israel,and the angel of God was God in an angelic manifestation,and not a created angel,but it was God Himself.We cannot see the invisible God unless He chooses to show us a bodily manifestation,so the only way Manoah and His wife,and Israel,could see God,was if God showed them a visible manifestation,which it was not a real angel,but God clothing Himself in an angel form,which Manoah said we seen God,and Israel seen God face to face.
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Hi Mpaper345,
Here you said "In the New Testament when you receive the Spirit,you are obeying the sabbath,and it is a spiritual rest,instead of a physical day of rest."

I think you are talking about Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

To help us understand what Jesus ment by this we can look at

Jer 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

In verse 28 of Matthew 11 the word "Rest". Gr. anapausis, “intermission,” “cessation,” “rest,” “respite,” “recreation.” Anapausis is the word commonly used in the LXX
to refer to the “rest” of the Sabbath. Anapausis refers to a temporary cessation of labor, not to permanent inactivity. Those who come to Christ do not cease to work,
but instead of laboring “for the meat which perisheth,” and becoming utterly weary in the attempt, they labour “for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life”.
Those who think they earn salvation by going about with heavy burdens “grievous to be borne” are mournfully ignorant of the fact that Christ’s “yoke is easy”
and His “burden is light” (Matt. 11:30).

You also said "The Old Testament is physical blessings with no spiritual blessing to be saved spiritually,so the sabbath days cannot perfect anybody for salvation,
which the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath."

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Here in verse 27 "Man". Gr. anthrōpos, literally, “a person,” a generic term including men, women, and children (see on ch. 6:44). “Mankind” would reflect the meaning
of anthrōpos more accurately. The Sabbath was designed and ordained by a loving Creator for the welfare of humanity. It is only by the wildest stretch of reasoning
that a person could consider the Sabbath “against” man in any respect (see on Col. 2:14)Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which
was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;(Handwriting. Gr. cheirographon, “a document written by hand.” The word occurs
only here in the NT. Elsewhere the word is frequently used of handwritten documents often of a legal character, such as a bond signed by a debtor. Compare Philemon 19.
The “blotting out” of such a certificate of indebtedness was carried out only after the debt had been paid and the conditions of the note had been completely met.)
Also, the water-soluble ink on papyrus could be washed off or rubbed away, and new writing placed upon the material. Some commentators hold that the apostle is
telling the Colossian church that their regeneration through the resurrection power of God, the restoration within them of His image, was carried out by God’s
blotting out, or canceling, the indebtedness of the bond they were due to fulfill. Others see a more general reference to the Mosaic law, especially as interpreted
by the Jews. The latter view seems to be more in harmony with the succeeding context. The similarity with the language of Eph. 2:15 and the parallel nature of these
two epistles suggest strongly that the “handwriting of ordinances” is the same as the “law of commandments contained in ordinances".Law of commandments. This is
generally thought of as referring to the ceremonial law. It is true that the ceremonial law came to an end at the cross, but it should be remembered that the
ceremonial system as God gave it did not create the enmity Paul here describes. It was the interpretation the Jews placed upon it, the additions they made to it,
and the exclusive and hostile attitudes they adopted as a result, that were the basis of the hostility. The added regulations, together with the involved
interpretations, served either to modify the force and function of the original commands or else greatly to nullify them. Any Gentile who wished to join the
“commonwealth of Israel” (v. 12) was confronted with an involved system of legal requirements. It is easy to see how the system would hold little attraction for him,
or how the God who, he believed, was the author of the system would not appeal to him. The Jewish system thus stood as an insurmountable barrier, a partition wall,
preventing the Gentiles from accepting the worship of the true God. The Jews loathed and detested their Gentile neighbors, and the Gentiles, in turn, hated and
despised their Jewish neighbors.



God did not create man because He had a Sabbath and needed someone to keep it. Rather, an Allwise Creator knew that man, the creature of His hand, needed opportunity
for moral and spiritual growth, for character development. He needed time in which his own interests and pursuits should be subordinated to a study of the character
and will of God as revealed in nature, and later, in revelation. The seventh-day Sabbath was ordained of God to meet this need. To tamper in any way with the
Creator’s specifications as to when and how the day should be observed is tantamount to denying that God knows what is best for the creatures of His hand.



Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.


The Saviour Himself has the right to determine what is appropriate to that day; consequently, the Pharisees were exceeding their prerogatives (see v. 24).
The church has no right to load the Sabbath with oppressive restrictions—as did the Jews—or to attempt the transfer of its sacredness from one day to another.
Both are devices of the evil one designed to lure men away from the true spirit of Sabbath observance. Man has no right to tamper with the day of God’s choosing,
whether he be Pharisee or Christian ecclesiastic.


The complete line of reasoning Christ set before the caviling Pharisees is more clearly presented in the account given by Matthew, as follows: (1) Human need is of
more importance than ritual requirements or human traditions (see Matt. 12:3, 4). (2) The labor performed in connection with the Temple service is in keeping with the
requirements of the Sabbath day (see v. 5). (3) Christ is greater than either the Temple (see v. 6) or the Sabbath day (see v. 8)

And everything you asked about Michael Gotime already has a teaching on this I think on page 3.

Thanks Lawoflove.
 
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LawofLove said:
Hi, Deadflesh

Sorry I am not Gotime but I am a 7th day Adventist.

Dan 10:10 "a hand touched me" Compare Eze5:2;Eze 3:24;Rev 1:17 The hand here is the hand of Gabriel read the last verse in chapter 10 of

Dan 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

So in the verse 13 saying the princes, came to help Gabriel.
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Jesus is NOT Michael or an angel.(not sure if the SDA believe that or not but JW do, are they the same group? I'm still learning all these different group names and what they believe. )

the following verses show that He is not for Michael calls upon the Lord and uses His name to rebuke Satan and God has never called any angel His Son.

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Hebrews 1:5
For to which of the angels did He ever say: “ You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “ I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”?

as for the Sabbath, I was thinking yesterday that everyone would like to have the world keep the seven year sabbath and year of Jubilee when all debts are forgiven one another and you get to start with a clean slate. people wouldn't have to file for bankruptacy anymore.
 
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AnandaHya said:
Jesus is NOT Michael or an angel.(not sure if the SDA believe that or not but JW do, are they the same group? I'm still learning all these different group names and what they believe. )

the following verses show that He is not for Michael calls upon the Lord and uses His name to rebuke Satan and God has never called any angel His Son.

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Hebrews 1:5
For to which of the angels did He ever say: “ You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “ I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”?

as for the Sabbath, I was thinking yesterday that everyone would like to have the world keep the seven year sabbath and year of Jubilee when all debts are forgiven one another and you get to start with a clean slate. people wouldn't have to file for bankruptacy anymore.
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Gotime has already went over the jude 9 text frist or second page if you like to go look at that I hope it helps you understand so that you will become sure. The teaching of the archangel being Jesus is a very old teaching older than JW or SDAs and a few others as well so no one can really compare SDAs with JW I could say the same thing about them keeping sunday as everyone els but that dos not make them the same as them. Anywho I hope that makes it a bit more clear. Blessing <3
 
LawofLove said:
Gotime has already went over the jude 9 text frist or second page if you like to go look at that I hope it helps you understand so that you will become sure. The teaching of the archangel being Jesus is a very old teaching older than JW or SDAs and a few others as well so no one can really compare SDAs with JW I could say the same thing about them keeping sunday as everyone els but that dos not make them the same as them. Anywho I hope that makes it a bit more clear. Blessing <3
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The word archangel means chief of the angels
 
LawofLove said:
Gotime has already went over the jude 9 text frist or second page if you like to go look at that I hope it helps you understand so that you will become sure. The teaching of the archangel being Jesus is a very old teaching older than JW or SDAs and a few others as well so no one can really compare SDAs with JW I could say the same thing about them keeping sunday as everyone els but that dos not make them the same as them. Anywho I hope that makes it a bit more clear. Blessing <3
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I saw it.

So let me get this straight:

SDA believe that Michael is NOT an angel but the Ruler of Angel and that is why he is called an
archangel? making Michael and Archangel another title for God Himself?

then why are there other people in the Bible named Michael?

on a side note:
Do SDA go door to door and baptize by the sprinkling of water?
 
it seems like there is some confusion...so here is what the seventh day adventist church and the jehovah's witnesses believe about jesus being the angel michael...as i understand it...

they both believe jesus is the archangel michael...but they differ in how they handle the doctrinal implications of that interpretation...

jehovah's witnesses believe it means jesus is not God and that he is a created angelic being instead...

adventists on the other hand believe it means that 'michael the archangel' is another title and name for God the son...
 
By the way, Harold Camping That guy with all the billboards declaring the end of the world, he also believes the archangel michael is Christ!--Mark--
 
Laodicea said:
What makes you think that?
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Does the SDA church believe that 7th day sabbath keeping is a mark of the true church? Their pamplets do say that if im not mistaken.

Now the word says that ceasing from our own work is the sign of the true church.

I see this being the fundamental issue here. The sabbath rest found in Christ is part of the bedrock of the faith.
 
DinoDillinger said:
Well lets not use that logic then :p
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lol you mean this one?

associationfallacycm2.jpg
 
DinoDillinger said:
Does the SDA church believe that 7th day sabbath keeping is a mark of the true church? Their pamplets do say that if im not mistaken.

Now the word says that ceasing from our own work is the sign of the true church.

I see this being the fundamental issue here. The sabbath rest found in Christ is part of the bedrock of the faith.
Click to expand...

Revelation 14:7
(7) Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Exodus 20:11
(11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
The verse in Revelation comes from the 4th commandment

Revelation 12:17
(17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 14:12
(12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The Sabbath is a sign of creation, redemption and sanctification
Creation
Exodus 31:16-17
(16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
(17) It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Redemption
Deuteronomy 5:15
(15) And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Sanctification
Ezekiel 20:12
(12) Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

So because the Sabbath is a sign of these then the Sabbath teaches us that for re-creation (In Christ), redemption & sanctification we are to cease from our own work and rest in His


 
Bloodwashed said:
By the way, Harold Camping That guy with all the billboards declaring the end of the world, he also believes the archangel michael is Christ!--Mark--
Click to expand...

No association was implied! Just for your information! Smiling--Mark--
 
AnandaHya said:
I saw it.

So let me get this straight:

SDA believe that Michael is NOT an angel but the Ruler of Angel and that is why he is called an
archangel? making Michael and Archangel another title for God Himself?

then why are there other people in the Bible named Michael?

on a side note:
Do SDA go door to door and baptize by the sprinkling of water?
Click to expand...

SDA's baptize by immersion
 
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