Purgatory?

[SantoSubito]

Jesus is enough though.......I wouldn't dare stand before The Perfect God but in His righteousness......as soon as I trusted Jesus as my Saviour I was ready to meet God........

No amount of prayers by other people could put me right with God, although sometimes my human nature feels like it needs to do good works to stand before God.......that's just my pride, and by His grace, I'm asking Jesus to take that captive

Yeah to really understand Purgatory you have to understand the difference between Imputation and Infusion of grace (the Protestant and Catholic/Orthodox/OO views respectively). Also I would say our works, done by the grace of God, are meritorious for our salvation, since they further our sanctification.

 

[kayem77]

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built." - (1 Peter 3:18-20 NIV)

Mr. Gabe Thanks for the Scripture. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here, here is my explanation of why I believe what I believe, just to make it clear, believe me Im not trying to change your mind or something, but just explain why I stand firm on this.
Maybe it would help a little explaining how I read the Bible. When I find many passages stating the same thing , in this case talking about how Jesus' sacrifice was enough :

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. Hebrews 4:16

But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.Hebrews 10:12-14
And pretty much all Hebrews10

ok point clear now haha, then if I read something like this afterwards...
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
( Santo Subito's info)

I clearly say...woooo wait! I have many verses there stating that Jesus sacrifice was perfect and that He purified us perfectly. So I stick to my Bible here.
When I read my Bible and I find a verse that I can't understand and seems to be contradictory to others, first of all, I pray about it, and then I do some research. I try to put all the pieces together, trying to find an interpretation that perfectly aligns with ALL the other verses. I don't know if that makes sense.

The verse that you posted Mr. Gabe, has caused a lof of confusion, me myself I'm not really really sure about it, but after doing some research and comparing it with Ephesians 4:8-10, it seems that Jesus went to Hades to proclaim his victory, not to save the lost souls there. He also went to Paradise to take all those who believed in him to Heaven, as He himself tells the thief next to his cross. But well...that's like another story,and I don't want to derail this thread lol.

In conclusion, thats why I believe what I believe, and for me it makes perfect sense with what I've read in the Bible. God bless you

Purgatory is not a way out of Hell for those that have been condemned. Everyone in Purgatory is already saved and going to heaven. As the Catechism explains


Wouldn't that depend on which canon you accept? Because if you accept any Christian canon but the Protestant one then you would necessarily have to grapple with the passages in I Maccabees among others.

Maybe it does depend in which cannon we accept, but to be honest I dont really know if the books of the catholic canon talk about this. If they do, then we would have to agree to disagree too haha. The only prove for me to say if a practice is true or false is the Bible. However, I find so many other passages that contradict this teaching (read my response to Mr. Gabe) and when I find something that seems to contradict a very general idea, I decide that my interpretation of that verse is incorrect, not that ALL the other verses are incorrect. Anyway, that's just me.

Oh no it's not because you disagreed that I said that. I said that because you tore down what purgatory isn't and not what it is.

I know what it is in the catholic teaching (i was catholic before), I'm just trying to explain why I don't believe in it and that is because Jesus sacrifice was enough to wash away all our sins, and purify us (again see my previos response to Mr. Zero so i don't have to repeat it a bazillion times and become annoying) . God bless you Santo.

 

[Ronin]

Its in the book of Macabees which oh yeah was taken out for some reason.....someone says that it wasnt inspired...just that the Jews use that as the basis for the Festival of Light known as Haunakka....

 

[Maddog]

ok point clear now haha, then if I read something like this afterwards...
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
( Santo Subito's info)

I clearly say...woooo wait! I have many verses there stating that Jesus sacrifice was perfect and that He purified us perfectly. So I stick to my Bible here.

I'm just wondering what you mean here. Are you saying that you are perfectly purified?

I'm not sure how one could be be in such a state of purity when one still has attachment to, and commits, sin. I suspect this goes back to the point that Santo touched on about infused versus imputed righteousness, but I'd be interested to hear how you deal with this (apparent) contradiction.

 

[jimmydiggs]

When works play a role in justification, yeah, purgatory makes logical sense.

 

[kayem77]

I'm just wondering what you mean here. Are you saying that you are perfectly purified?

I'm not sure how one could be be in such a state of purity when one still has attachment to, and commits, sin. I suspect this goes back to the point that Santo touched on about infused versus imputed righteousness, but I'd be interested to hear how you deal with this (apparent) contradiction.

In God's eyes, yes, I am purified. When I die, I will be COMPLETELY holy. In this life, we both know that we can't be perfected because the flesh is still a part of us, but in God's eyes, the blood is enough. I won't go to Heaven because someone else is praying for me, (pity the ones who don't have family or friends) , or because I pray everyday, or because I give to charity, love my neighbor,etc. these things come with the faith of course, but these things are not a pass to Heaven. I will go to Heaven because God will see the blood, and He will be pleased. And that is enough. When you are covered by his blood, you become a living sacrifice, pleasing to him. No more sacrifices needed.


For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Hebrews 10:14

I think that's pretty clear. Those are not my words, but if you don't see the Bible as the only authority for teaching, then this is pointless. When we disagree in the authority of a teaching (wether is the Bible, or tradition, or experience) we won't ever come to an agreement. So i'll just leave two more cool verses that I like .

Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment. Hebrews 9:27
Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.'' Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:42-43

 

[Joshua175]

1 John 5:1-5 "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"



His commandments are not grievous. Whoever believes in Jesus Christ overcomes the world and is born of God.


1 John 5:11-13

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

 

[Tobby17]

Purgatory is CRAP..

 

[Maddog]

In God's eyes, yes, I am purified. When I die, I will be COMPLETELY holy. In this life, we both know that we can't be perfected because the flesh is still a part of us, but in God's eyes, the blood is enough. I won't go to Heaven because someone else is praying for me, (pity the ones who don't have family or friends) , or because I pray everyday, or because I give to charity, love my neighbor,etc. these things come with the faith of course, but these things are not a pass to Heaven. I will go to Heaven because God will see the blood, and He will be pleased. And that is enough. When you are covered by his blood, you become a living sacrifice, pleasing to him. No more sacrifices needed.

It's funny, because I once believed as you did. Now I can't seem to wrap my head around it.

I get the part about God looking at Christ's sacrifice instead of your sinfulness and being covered by the blood etc. but to my mind that still leaves the nagging question about the reality that you haven't actually attained holiness. You say that when you die you will be completely holy, but will you really be holy, or will you remain a sinner underneath whilst still covered by the blood? In other words, do you remain 'snow covered dung' even in heaven, or is there a genuine transformation that makes you truly righteous instead of simply being 'covered'?

For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Hebrews 10:14

I think that's pretty clear.

If you say so. But doesn't 'being made holy' imply a transformative process? What if that process is not yet completed at the point of death?

 

[Joshua175]

It's funny, because I once believed as you did. Now I can't seem to wrap my head around it.

I get the part about God looking at Christ's sacrifice instead of your sinfulness and being covered by the blood etc. but to my mind that still leaves the nagging question about the reality that you haven't actually attained holiness. You say that when you die you will be completely holy, but will you really be holy, or will you remain a sinner underneath whilst still covered by the blood? In other words, do you remain 'snow covered dung' even in heaven, or is there a genuine transformation that makes you truly righteous instead of simply being 'covered'?




If you say so. But doesn't 'being made holy' imply a transformative process? What if that process is not yet completed at the point of death?

Romans 11:5-6

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

 

[kayem77]

It's funny, because I once believed as you did. Now I can't seem to wrap my head around it.

I get the part about God looking at Christ's sacrifice instead of your sinfulness and being covered by the blood etc. but to my mind that still leaves the nagging question about the reality that you haven't actually attained holiness. You say that when you die you will be completely holy, but will you really be holy, or will you remain a sinner underneath whilst still covered by the blood? In other words, do you remain 'snow covered dung' even in heaven, or is there a genuine transformation that makes you truly righteous instead of simply being 'covered'?


If you say so. But doesn't 'being made holy' imply a transformative process? What if that process is not yet completed at the point of death?

I don't understand the confusion....I'll try to put it on words...when we die, the work of Christ is perfectioned. Of course the process of holiness lasts all our lives, until we die and resurrect, his work in us will be perfected.
We don't go to Heaven as a sinners, unless we don't repent.
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.” John 8:24

Even though we are indeed sinners in this life, we are called to be holy.
As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, 15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16 because it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.Matthew 5:48
For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Hebrews 10:14

As you see(again that verse lol) it says that he made us perfect, we obviously know that we are not perfect, but then again, when God sees us covered by Jesus' blood, we are perfect in his eyes.

You ask me if what is the process is not completed when we are death. Well, the point is that, we CANT be holy UNTIL we are death. I think these verses answer your question.

Who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body. Philippians 3:21

And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns. Philippians 1:6

 

[Maddog]

As you see(again that verse lol) it says that he made us perfect, we obviously know that we are not perfect, but then again, when God sees us covered by Jesus' blood, we are perfect in his eyes.

You ask me if what is the process is not completed when we are death. Well, the point is that, we CANT be holy UNTIL we are death.

So when we die there is a transformation, where we really do become holy.

Would I be pushing it if I suggested this transformation was a purging of our imperfections?

 

[kayem77]

So when we die there is a transformation, where we really do become holy.

Would I be pushing it if I suggested this transformation was a purging of our imperfections?

Yes, indeed, we do become holy when we die .
And about your question....not sure if I understand it. Are you asking if the transformation takes away our sins? In that case, yes because God will give us a new body, a perfect body, one that is not corrupted. Actually we are now considered dead, but alive in Spirit. When we accept Jesus in our hearts we die with him in the cross and his Spirit comes to live in us.

I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.Galatians 2:20



The only thing that hinders us from being holy is the flesh, which is sinful and delights in following satan's lies. When Christ comes we will finally be completely redeemed


Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:25-26

 

[TheAristocat]

Does it exist? I was taught it existed for people that lived really good lives but that werent christian or for some reason didnt make it into heaven yet. I was taught this in Religion class in Catholic school. Now I notice a lot of people don't believe in it.

I was taught it is sort of like a temporary hell where you suffer for a while but you will definately eventually get to heaven and the more people on earth praying for the souls in purgatory the shorter amount of time you have to spend there.

Any truth to this?

Closest thing to purgatory you'll find in the Old Testament is a place called Sheol, and by the very definition of the word (i.e. "the grave" - a place for the physically dead and presumably the spiritually dead) the people that go there will not be entering God's Paradise.

 

[SantoSubito]

It's funny, because I once believed as you did. Now I can't seem to wrap my head around it.

I get the part about God looking at Christ's sacrifice instead of your sinfulness and being covered by the blood etc. but to my mind that still leaves the nagging question about the reality that you haven't actually attained holiness. You say that when you die you will be completely holy, but will you really be holy, or will you remain a sinner underneath whilst still covered by the blood? In other words, do you remain 'snow covered dung' even in heaven, or is there a genuine transformation that makes you truly righteous instead of simply being 'covered'?




If you say so. But doesn't 'being made holy' imply a transformative process? What if that process is not yet completed at the point of death?

The way a pastor has explained the Protestant position to me is like this. When a person believes in Christ and acknowledges him as their Saviour God imputes the righteousness of Christ to that person and declares them just even though they may not in fact be just.

The Catholic position is a different. God infuses grace into the believer through the Sacraments and other ways, and declares the believer just when they have indeed become just. So In Catholic theology Justification and Sanctification are intertwined and a person can move in and out of being Justified (what Catholics call a state of grace) during their life. While In Protestantism Justification is an event and Sanctification is what you start after you have been Justified.

Which is why you'll often hear Catholics say "I'm being saved" instead of "I'm saved" when asked the question. "are you saved?"

 

[Maddog]

Yes, indeed, we do become holy when we die .
And about your question....not sure if I understand it.

Don't worry about it. I was partly being tongue in cheek in an attempt to draw similiarities between your belief and the belief of those who subscribe to a more expounded doctrine such as Purgatory; earlier in the thread I wrote:

Presence in heaven requires perfect cleanliness and freedom from sin. I think it's safe to say that most of us are not quite perfect when we die, so it follows that there must be some stage of cleaning or purging before we enter heaven. I think even Protestants have to admit that something needs to happen before a soul is admitted into heaven even if they disagree with the doctrine of Purgatory.

Would you say that's a fair summation?

 

[kayem77]

Don't worry about it. I was partly being tongue in cheek in an attempt to draw similiarities between your belief and the belief of those who subscribe to a more expounded doctrine such as Purgatory; earlier in the thread I wrote:

Presence in heaven requires perfect cleanliness and freedom from sin. I think it's safe to say that most of us are not quite perfect when we die, so it follows that there must be some stage of cleaning or purging before we enter heaven. I think even Protestants have to admit that something needs to happen before a soul is admitted into heaven even if they disagree with the doctrine of Purgatory.

Would you say that's a fair summation?

Well I agree something needs to happen, and that something is being covered by the blood, crucify ours sins in the cross, and live in Spirit; so basically just surrender to Jesus. If we don't do that, then I agree that in God's eyes, we are not pure yet and we die in our sins.
That's how I see it .

 

[hislastwalk]

Purgatory is CRAP..

I agree, it's not even biblical. It's something the catholic church started to make money back in the dark ages. They believed you could pray for others sins to be forgiven, and that you can pay a priest to pray someone out of Hell. This is when the deformation of the church started. (I've studied religion.) They wiped away speaking in tongues, etc, (before this, there was one church, one denomination, not 100) then a man ha a revelation and realized that he was being lied to by the catholic church, I believe this was the man who started the Baptist denomination, but anywho.. out of this, a bunch of other denominations popped up.

 

[SantoSubito]

I agree, it's not even biblical. It's something the catholic church started to make money back in the dark ages. They believed you could pray for others sins to be forgiven, and that you can pay a priest to pray someone out of Hell. This is when the deformation of the church started. (I've studied religion.) They wiped away speaking in tongues, etc, (before this, there was one church, one denomination, not 100) then a man ha a revelation and realized that he was being lied to by the catholic church, I believe this was the man who started the Baptist denomination, but anywho.. out of this, a bunch of other denominations popped up.

For someone who's studied religion how did you not know that the man who started the reformation was Martin Luther who of course founded Lutheranism? Anyways the doctrine of purgatory has been around in some form since the beginning, the EO have a similar idea as well. Indulgences in the dark ages could be granted for alms giving (giving to the poor), but in the Renaissance this was abused and some would simply sell the indulgences.

 

[jimmydiggs]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndPWE4oNhbc[/video]