Grace Saves, Faith Receives, Christ Secures
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What is wrong with accepting everything the Bible says? Everything harmonizes in it because God doesn't contradict Himself.
Why would you only pick out what you like? That will only give an inaccurate picture of what God is teaching us and He won't honor it. It's His way or no way ar all.
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Why are you doing just that. I made my case & didn't ignore anything. You've offered nothing.
Other people have already provided you with scripture - which, mind you - God Himself inspires. Why would you ignore or reject what God is teaching us in those parts of the Bible?
Please spend time and lift up the God-inspired scripture you don't like to the Lord Jesus Himself and He will show you how they harmonize with the scripture you like.
I used to ignore certain scripture like you're doing right now, but God by His Holy Spirit had to correct me. When I realized what I was doing, it felt like the floor disappeared from right under me. But Lord Jesus was gentle and encouraging, picked me up and helped me to accept those parts of the Bible I didn't like. Then He empowered me, by the Holy Spirit, to be able live by those parts of the Bible in addition to the parts I already like.
I also have to add that it gets easier to live by the harmonized teachings of God as I continued to walk with Him. So it's very doable!
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Exactly. You have done a good job brother of properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.
I wish I could say the same about everyone in this thread.
Amen! In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
In context, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)
In James 2:21, we notice that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled (vs. 23) the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
*HERMENEUTICS*
It never collapses. How many times does something have to be said in Scripture in order for it to be the truth? You believe stuff simply because someone one told you to believe it. You've been trained to believe volume of content means you're right. That's not only bad logic it's very bad theology. Incongruence exist is your position. Having 100 passages that you think support your position doesn't mean two or three passages against your position are wrong. God doesn't have to say, let there be light 100 times in order for light to come into existence. Your argument is silly at best.
Correct. The majority believe false doctrine, but will God cave in to them just because most people believe it? No, He will stick with what He already decreed even if it's unpopular.
Matthew 7:13–14
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”
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A biblical hermeneutic or parameters for interpreting the Bible might well begin with the instruction of Paul (1Thes. 5:21) to “Test everything. Hold on to the good.” A truthseeker is guided by the question: What is most true or closest to the truth, especially the Truth of God’s Word? The method for discerning truth employs subjective logic that is made as objective as possible by learning from Scriptural and other truthseekers. As a result of seeking ultimate truth, I have come to value two NT teachings as key points from which to triangulate or use to guide an interpretation of the Bible, especially problematic statements.
First, God loves and wants to save everyone. Seven Scriptures teaching divine omnilove include: 1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1Tim. 2:3-4, which might be deemed the “7 pearls”. Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (Rom. 5:6-8) including His enemies: those who are ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ, pseudo-Christian (Matt. 7:21, John 8:42-44).
Second, God is just (2Thes. 1:6a, cf. Rom. 3:25-26 & 9:14, Deut. 32:4, Psa. 36:6, Luke 11:42, Rev. 15:3). Explanations of God’s Word should not impugn God’s justice and love for all people (Joel 2:13, John 3:16). This parameter is affirmed in the OT (Psa. 145:17): “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.”
Even the wrath of God is an expression of His love and justice. The writer of Hebrews (Heb. 12:4-11) indicates that divine wrath is intended as discipline for the purpose of teaching people to repent of their hatefulness and faithlessness (Pro. 3:12, Isa. 33:14-15 Rev. 3:19). If a righteous explanation cannot be found for a passage of Scripture purporting to describe God’s will (such as Joshua 6:17-24, 8:2&24 & 10:28-40, 11:6-23), then it should be considered as historical or descriptive of what people perceived rather than as pedagogical or prescriptive of God’s nature. Unrighteous rage should not be attributed to God.
The justice of God is a source of comfort and joy to those who have decided to accept His loving Lordship, but it is experienced as judgment or wrath by those who rebel against Him (Isa. 13:13, Rom. 1:18, Rev. 19:11). The fire that warms (purifies) also burns (punishes). Stating God’s requirement for salvation negatively: a person would do well (be wise) not to reject Him in order not to experience the miserable but just consequence (John 3:17-18). Just consequences teach good behavior.
This hermeneutic seeks to harmonize disparate Scriptures as taught by Paul (in 1Thes. 5:21), exemplified by Jesus (in Matt. 4:6-7) and illustrated by the transparent overlays of bodily systems found in some books on anatomy. Considering both sides of an issue or doctrine is called dialectical theology. An interpreter should want to include all true assertions in the picture of reality without making a “Procrustean Body” by cutting off or ignoring parts that do not seem to fit, because the correct understanding must be self-consistent or else God would be tricky. The whole truth combines parts without sawing! However, Christians believe the OC was superseded by the NC or Gospel, which is the apex of divine revelation (Heb. 7:18, 8:13, 9:15).
The Bible says God’s Spirit is love and truth (1John 4:8 & 5:6), which means all love (agape, Rom. 6:5-8) in all people is God’s operation, and all truth in all cultures is God’s revelation. Thus, becoming a Christian theist does not mean rejecting what is good and true in one’s pre-Christian experience or culture. When considering two different understandings (thesis A versus antithesis B), the truth may not be either one or the other but rather the proper harmonization of the two. (Both A and B = synthesis C.)
The Bible teaches (Gen. 1:3, John 1:1-3) that both the world and inspired words are expressions of God’s Word/Logos, and thus scientific and spiritual truths must be compatible or else God would be tricky. So, while belief that God is love and Jesus is Lord is based upon the biblical revelation, some knowledge also is gleaned from the natural sciences and common sense. While this interpretation of reality is influenced by the Bible, it also utilizes God-given logical thinking where the Bible seems silent, hoping to be guided by the Spirit of Truth (John 14:17).
Hermeneutics applies logical reasoning in order to understand biblical texts, because God is Logos (John 1:1), and right reasoning/logic is the way every sane soul has access to the supreme Mind or Logos (1Cor. 2:11-16). It is the glue that binds all individual truths together in one comprehensive faith. Godly logic provides the rationale for believing that the history of humanity is not a farce, and it sustains the hope of experiencing love and joy in a future heavenly existence. The beauty of this hermeneutic is the harmonization of whatever is good and true. However, I realize that—just as frequently happens when a person shares favorite musical or scenic beauty with someone else—it may not move your soul like mine (Matt. 11:16-17).
But God's want doesn't take away our free will. Faith doesn't cause works. If faith alone was sufficient it wouldn't need completion by works.
My argument isn't ""more verses = more truth."" I'm arguing that Scripture interprets Scripture & when a couple passages appear to be in tension, the only responsible approach is to let the full counsel of God define the categories. That's not """volume‑based theology,"" that's basic hermeneutics.
The problem isn't that James contradicts Paul. It's that you're collapsing 2 different categories that the Bible itself keeps distinct. James explicitly frames his discussion in the language of visibility (show me & I will show you), while Paul explicitly frames his in the language of justification before God (""apart from works,"" ""justifies the ungodly""). Two different moments, two different audiences, two different purposes.
You keep appealing to a coulpe of passages, but the passages you're appealing to never use the New Testament's salvation vocabulary , not justified, not born again, not sealed, not redeemed, not perfected, not adopted. They describe people who were exposed to the truth, not people who were regenerated by it. That's the incongruence you haven't addressed.
If your interpretation makes Paul contradict James, or makes James overturn Rom 3–5, Titus 3, Eph 2 & Jesus' own teaching in Jn 5 & 10, then the problem isn't with Scripture, it's with your categories.
The harmony is simple: We are justified before God by faith alone & justified before men by the works that faith inevitably produces.
James says it. Paul says it. Jesus says it. The categories fit perfectly when you let each author speak in his own context.
If your interpretation of a couple of verses overturns the dozens that define justification clearly & repeatedly, then the problem isn't with the verses. It's with your interpretation that forces Scripture to contradict itself.
True, and discussion on CC has helped me clarify that there is no qualitative difference between faith/MFW that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace or motivates good works while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith/MFW remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime (Rom. 1:17). IOW, the ability to do good works as well as have saving faith are both due to God’s grace.
Yes, "Scripture interprets Scripture", especially when a couple of proof-texts appear to be in tension.
That is basic hermeneutics and what I call "harmonization" or "both-and" logic.
Every single one of your posts is volume equals truth. If faith alone was sufficient it wouldn't need completion. James is clear on that point. Now you either know what sufficient means or you don't. Your intellect shouldn't be a casualty of your faith.
The New Testament leaves no room for a salvation that is partial, fragile, or awaiting human completion, because it repeatedly declares that believers & Christ's saving work are already complete.
Paul says we are complete in Christ (Col 2:10), the writer of Hebrews says Christ's single offering has perfected us forever (Heb 10:14) We are not waiting for additional merit or obedience to finalize salvation. God has already blessed us with every spiritual blessing in Christ (Eph 1:3), has already made us alive, raised us & seated us with Him (Eph 2:5–6). And to remove all doubt, Paul says believers have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession (Eph 1:13–14; 4:30).
Any doctrine that claims faith must be ""completed"" by human effort or salvation/eternal life is temporary, directly contradicts the very passages that proclaim Christ's work is complete (resurrection proves it). Every believer is complete in Him & the Holy's Spirit' seal given by Christ is the GUARANTEE!
Then James is a liar. So is Paul as well huh?! 1 Thessalonians 3:10. If faith is all that's necessary why does it need completing. Again volume does not equal truth
The irony is that the very people who try to smuggle their personal works into Christ's finished work are the exact people Paul is addressing in 1 Thes 3:10. Paul calls the Thessalonians brothers, chosen, & standing fast in the Lord (1 Thess 1:4; 3:8), yet he still says their faith had lacking areas, not because their salvation was incomplete, but because their confidence in Christ needed strengthening. That's why Paul prays to perfect what is lacking in their faith: not to finish salvation, but to shore up the weak spots where human effort tries to creep in. These are the very people Paul says need their faith strengthened & that should sound familiar. The problem isn't that faith is insufficient; the problem is faith wavers when people stop resting in Christ's sufficiency.
And those who claim Jesus' sacrifice & His sealing promises weren't quite enough are exposing the very lack Paul prayed to correct, because the moment someone insists salvation still needs their godlike contribution, they're denying the God who ""justifies the ungodly apart from works"" (Rom 4:5) & the Savior who saved us ""not by works of righteousness which we have done"" (Titus 3:5). That mindset effectively says their own righteousness, which Scripture calls filthy rags (Isa 64:6), is capable of finishing what Christ supposedly couldn't. It's delusional. It makes their performance the focus of salvation & robs our great God & Savior of the thanksgiving, praise, glory, & honor that belong to Him alone.
Paul taught believers are complete in Christ (Col 2:10) & Jesus taught the same reality through His finished work. The New Testament is unmistakably clear that Christ's sacrifice is fully sufficient & that believers, by faith, stand complete in Him. Hebrews declares that ""by one offering Christ has perfected forever those who are being sanctified"" (Heb 10:14), grounding our confidence not in our performance but in His finished work. Paul echoes this when he says believers are already ""complete in Him"" because Christ is the fullness of God (you're not) & the head of all rule & authority (Col 2:9–10). This completeness is not future, conditional, or fragile. It is the present possession of all who trust in Him. God has already ""blessed us with every spiritual blessing in Christ"" (Eph 1:3), His Hoy Spirit baptism has already ""made us alive, raised us & seated us with Him"" (Eph 2:5–6) & He has already sealed us with the Holy Spirit as the ""guarantee of our inheritance"" (Eph 1:13–14). Scripture never presents salvation as Christ doing His part & believers finishing the rest; it presents salvation as Christ accomplishing all, & believers receiving all by faith. His sacrifice is sufficient, His work is complete & those who trust Him are complete in Him.
Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words: Salvation
(2/b) of the spiritual and eternal deliverance granted immediately by God to those who accept His conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus, in whom alone it is to be obtained, Acts 4:12 , and upon confession of Him as Lord, Romans 10:10 ; for this purpose the gospel is the saving instrument, Romans 1:16 ; Ephesians 1:13 (see further under SAVE);
(NOTE: "ETERNAL DELIVERANCE GRANTED IMMEDIATELY" by God to those who accept His conditions of repentance (from unbelief to belief) & faith in the Lord Jesus death & resurrection)
You're free to promote your works‑based salvation system if you want. But don't pretend it’s biblical.
And for the record, I never called James or Paul liars. But I can see when a conversation has reached the point where it's time to shake the dust off. May we all reap what we sow.
You just can't pay attention can you? This is what comes from rote memorization. We aren't adding to Jesus' work with our works we are making ourselves worthy of the salvation he offers. Matt 12:11-14. You should move on. I would if I was you. You say, may we all reap what we sow but you mean others not you. Am I right? Of course I am.
LolExactly. You have done a good job brother of properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.
I wish I could say the same about everyone in this thread.
I other words they agree with you so it MUST be correct. Nothing anyone who disagrees with you says, ever.makes you stop and contemplate whether they might be right and you might be wrong. I bet you're never wrong. As often as I've ridden this bull in this rodeo I can't remember a single one of the cowboys thinking they are wrong.Exactly. You have done a good job brother of properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.
I wish I could say the same about everyone in this thread.