Loss of salvation???

[sawdust]

Frankly, I don't understand it.
Maybe the other member does.

OBEY means to OBEY.

Apparently, you don't like that word.

If you don't understand what he said, how can you determine what he likes or doesn't like?

 

[studier]

Some people like to apply it to others but not themselves,

Actually another common flaw among people, including Christians.

 

[Mem]

Father commands you to believe in His Son, and so you obey Him. The Son commands you to come to Him and He will give you rest, and so you obey Him.
Does the hesitation to understand come from that this can't be because it's way too so easy to do?

Worse yet is when people on here intimate another is arrogant for daring question the status quo of doctrinal dogma among Evangelicals. That hit me yesterday.

MM

Knee jerk defense mechanism happens when men perceive that a foot might be coming too close of risk in grazing their groin. Give a bit of slack in such cases that you're dealing with matters which they have set in their bowels and so closely guard. They may come around if they sense you're only attempting to gird them in strength rather than, well, what most of us are used to.

Personally, it'd seem to me that I could be surer that I'm right if I carefully examine all the ways that I might possibly be wrong.

 

[studier]

My reply was not convoluted. You seem to conflate obeying the Son by choosing to believe in the Son with obeying the Son after one believes and is saved. Again, to obey the Son here in (John 3:36) is to choose to believe in the Son, just as we read in John 3:18. Folks who conflate faith and works and teach salvation by faith and works typically stumble over the word "obey" in John 3:36. (NASB)

"So, let's clarify your position on John 3:36 and obedience:

1. You see believing as an act of obeying the Son in initially coming to Christ?
2. Do you see the phrasing faith-obedience or faith/obedience as correctly representing how John3:36 presents these 2 words?
3. You do not see continued believing and obeying as necessary to remain in Christ?
4. You do not see ongoing obedience to Christ as a requirement for remaining saved?
5. You do not consider the initial obedience of believing in Christ to be a 'work'?
6. You do consider continued obedience to remain in Christ a 'work'?
7. You do consider continued faith to remain in Christ a 'work' or as unnecessary?

 

[markss]

Personally, it'd seem to me that I could be surer that I'm right if I carefully examine all the ways that I might possibly be wrong.

That is something I value in a good forum, being challenged by reasonable and knowledgeable Christians, to help me examine my views carefully.

Much Love!

 

[Just_A__Follower]

We ARE saved by ONLY FAITH.

But FAITH ALONE is not biblical.

What does FAITH ALONE mean?

It means that faith in Christ is the sole means in which a person is justified or made right with God. It implies that rituals, works, and human effort cannot earn salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

It means that faith in Christ is the sole means in which a person is justified or made right with God. It implies that rituals, works, and human effort cannot earn salvation.

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-26; 4:5-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

 

[Ouch]

The message Peter presented included quotes from Joel and the Psalms that drew a massive crowd of Jews to the Messiah. The fulfillment was in line with the purpose of the feast:

Acts 2:30-37
Therefore being a prophet, (David) and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Until I make thy foes thy footstool. (Psa. 110:1)
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."


Note: The hearers of Peter's message would have understood the connection between Jesus, the risen Messiah, and the Jewish Feast of Pentecost, the second harvest, they were currently attending. Now it all made sense. Jesus was the Passover lamb, and the firstfruit of the Firstfruits harvest; He rose, and others came out of their graves as well when Jesus was resurrected. (Matt. 27:53)

Back to Acts 2, the next verse indicates the hearers wanted to know what they must do in order to be part of this the beginning of the second harvest. Pentecost was the fourth feast held fifty days after Firstfruits; where more crops were harvested then at Firstfruits.


"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Peter said, Repent, and be baptized EVERYONE of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin and you shall receive the Holy Ghost." (37-38) The same message was then carried into all nations.

Consider, the second harvest in Leviticus is a foreshadow concerning both Jew and Gentile. (23:17) The instruction includes two wave loaves of equal weight and baked with leaven that are called "firstfruits". That the loaves are baked with leaven represents sinful man. And beings they are "firstfruits" they are redeemed men. The harvest that began at Pentecost continues. (3000 died at the giving of the OT law at Mt. Sinai, and 3000 were saved after belief and obedience to the NT gospel.)

"Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the Lord."



As you referenced, Paul's comment concerning salvation in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 indicates everyone must believe is that Jesus' died, was buried, and resurrected. And as I pointed out the scripture reveals that is the first thing that all must believe; there is more to the gospel message.


Per your statement concerning the wall of partition. According to Ephesians 2:14-16, Jesus dealt with the wall of partition between Jew and Gentile at the cross, during his crucifixion.


Lastly, water baptism is by no means a badge of merit. But rather God offering forgiveness to everyone who believes and obeys the command in association with Jesus sacrifice; regardless of this fact not a single person deserves it=unmerited favor.

 

[Ouch]

2 of 2

We should not reject baptism or trivialize it or demean it.
We should do everything Jesus said to do.
God bless you too!

Morning, I going to need to get some help with responding, I like your style with colors I did "You" and "ME".

You, Cornelius was saved because he was not aware of the gospel message until it was preached to him.
Not everyone who is saved has heard the gospel message.
Romans 2:20-21

Me, You do know what you are saying is if no one evers hears the gospel they are going to Heaven right?

ALSO, since we can NOT enter Heaven unless we got rid of our sins and JESUS has filled us with His spirit HOW could Cornelius be saved?

ALSO, if he was saved, why did an an angel tell him to send for Peter for what HE MUST DO?

Acts 10:4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

Peter in,

Acts 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

You, Agreed...but just to clarify...
do you believe no one was saved before Jesus??
Not sure I'm understanding you.

ME, Old Testament? Sure with different rules.

You, Ouch,,,it's not up to you to proclaim who is saved and who is not.
I have to hope that God will have more mercy than YOU have!
How could a man fear (respect) God,
Pray to God
Teach God to his family
and be lost?
Because YOU make the rules for salvation?
I'd say that anyone in his shoes will be saved.

ME, Your telling me that I don't have the ability to say if someone in saved or not AND YOU ARE TELLING ME WHO IS SAVED!

Not angry, I just don't think you see it LOL.

How many different denominations are there today? Why so many?

They don't like GODS rules so they start a church with their own.

Do you really think they are all going to Heaven???

Only the ones who know JESUS and JESUS knows them, which means we have to obey HIM, changing HIS rules we are not obeying HIM we are making our own.

You, Obstinate refusal to be baptized MAY be harmful to a person's spiritual life.
And, as I've already stated,,,degigrating baptism,,,which JESUS commanded we do,,,
is also not recommended, IMHO.
Saying that it's like taking a bath, or a plunge is water,,,is disrespectful to Jesus, who ordered it.

ME, Baptizing in JESUS name is a must! It will effects everything we do including our walk and if we enter Heaven or not!

All of the ones in the OT who OBEYED GOD was rewarded, being baptized in JESUS name is obeying.

You, Instead it would be helpful if we knew some church history and understand why babies were baptized in the early church.
I won't get into it here unless you want to...
but IF we want to believe that baptism is real,,,as I think that you do...
then babies still receive the Holy Spirit.

ME, I know plenty of church history, which does not mean all of it lines up with GODS word!

JESUS is the one who fills us with the Holy Ghost,
Acts 2, They were told to wait, they did and received it the next day? Days later?
Acts 8, They were baptized and had to send for Peter and John, they came and JESUS filled them days? maybe weeks later?
Acts 10, They JESUS filled them with the Holy Ghost then was baptized.
Acts 19, They were baptized and JESUS filled them as soon as Paul land his hands on them.

Evidence both are needed and JESUS fills us when HE want's to.

I strongly believe since Jews were not allow to even speak to the Gentiles that if JESUS filled Cornelius to show him they were love by GOD just as much as the Jews were.

You, Question is: What do they do with Him when they attain the age of accountability?

ME, I think the Jews put it app 13, we know some kids are faster that others.

You, Not every baby that is baptized will be saved.

ME, No reason to baptize babies, for sure not bible.

You, Yes sir.
I state that we are to be baptized.
I just don't think it's as simple as you seem to believe.
It's a bit more complicated.

Do we ever REALLY get rid of our sins?
Do we stop sinning after baptism?

ME, It is that simple, baptism is not a choice, and we sure will sin more sometimes more than once a day, just a bad thought is a sin!

After we have been reborn,
1 John 1,
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

All we need to do is Repent and confess them to JESUS.

You, Who is filled with the Holy Spirit?
is it just the baptized? I'm not at all sure,,,except I tend toward that belief.

ME, JESUS is the one who fills us noted above Acts 2,8,10 and 19.
JESUS said we have to have it, John 3:5, Peter said it was for ALL Acts 2:38-39

You, I think you mean in the AUTHORITY of Jesus.
The CC does what Jesus commanded....I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 28:19

Me, what is "THE NAME OF" the father, the son and the Holy Ghost?
JESUS disciples knew and told us how to be baptized in JESUS wonderful name.

There is only ONE GOD ouch.
His name is YAHWEH.

Yahweh is a divine being.
This one divine BEING is composed of 3 PERSONS....
The Father
The Son
The Holy Spirit

They share the same nature/essence.
They are all 3 eternal.
They are different in Person and in function.

The Son and the Holy Spirit are referred to as a PERSON in the NT
and they are also referred to as having the qualites that God has.
This is why those that came after the Apostles grappled to understand who this Jesus was...
He was plainly a man...
but he forgave sins
he was resurrected
he was a miracle worker

WHAT was He?
Was He a man?
Was He God?
It was decided that He was both man and God, which explains scripture perfectly.

Jesus was not speaking to Himself in the Garden...
He was speaking to another PERSON...the Father.

I'd say that if one does not believe Jesus is God,,,
then who is that person worshipping?
Is he worshipping a man??
That would be idolatry.

I'd say that the Holy Spirit comes to live with us at salvation.
He indwells us at baptism.

I'd also say that when one has the Holy Spirit, his life will change and some visible transformation SHOULD take place.

Yes, the teacher is responsible to teach correctly...
but some on this very Forum teach odd ideas that are not even found in the NT.
Yes sir. We are to test everything with the NT...we should be like the Bareans in Acts.

Ok with you to talk about the trinity later?
I will note you say there is ONE GOD "YAHWEH" then you say they are three different persons?

If we are humble we can all learn from each other GOD BLESS YOU.

 

[Musicmaster]

Father commands you to believe in His Son, and so you obey Him. The Son commands you to come to Him and He will give you rest, and so you obey Him.
Does the hesitation to understand come from that this can't be because it's way too so easy to do?



Knee jerk defense mechanism happens when men perceive that a foot might be coming too close of risk in grazing their groin. Give a bit of slack in such cases that you're dealing with matters which they have set in their bowels and so closely guard. They may come around if they sense you're only attempting to gird them in strength rather than, well, what most of us are used to.

Personally, it'd seem to me that I could be surer that I'm right if I carefully examine all the ways that I might possibly be wrong.

Unfortunately, giving slack where the clarity of language within scripture is summarily and systematically ignored, that leads right back to the sludge pit of the socially engineered theologies that dominate the landscape of Western thought within pop Christianity muscled about by denominational and independent dogmas...thus the insatiable support of false doctrines.

MM

 

[Toknow]

Jesus gave the command to baptize in the name of... What name was Jesus referring to? The actions of His apostles supply the answer. They obeyed His command by consistently baptizing people in the name of Jesus. It is clear they understood a truth Paul reveals to the Colossians; In Jesus dwells all the fulness of the Godhead. (Col. 2:9-13)

What does the fulness of the Godhead have to do with the FORMULA for baptism.

I've already said this but will repeat:

John was baptizing for repentence.
Jesus baptism was for repentence AND with fire and the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 3:11
11 “I baptize you with[b] water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with[c] the Holy Spirit and fire.


So the writers were distinguishing between the baptism of John and the baptism of Jesus.

The FORMULA for baptism is as Jesus commanded
IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT...

Matthew 28:19

What I was pointing out about ignorance being no excuse is that receiving the Holy Ghost, and having one's sin remitted in obedience to water baptism are essential elements of the NT rebirth. (John 3:3-5)

Agreed. But we're not ignorant of scripture.

What about those examples I gave?
What about one in Africa that comes to know God but knows NOTHING about the gospel?

Do you not believe

Romans 1:19-20
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

I also posted

Romans 2:14-15
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness,

I believe Luke 12 references different degrees of punishment regarding ignorance relative to a born again believer's walk in general.

Are you stating that we will be punished based on how much work/good deeds we do??

This is not biblical.
You're not properly interpreting Luke 12.

Here it is again:

Luke 12:48
47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.

48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.


Verse 47 speaks of those THAT KNOW what the master wants.

Verse 48 speaks of thoseTHAT DO NOT KNOW what the master wants.


No talk there about being punished for works/good deeds not done.

Why Cornelius and others were required to be water baptized in order to be saved is attested to in various places within scripture, Note first, God's truth concerning any topic is established by at least 2-3 scriptures. (Matt. 18:16, 2 Cor. 13:1) And scripture reveals (Acts 2:38) and confirms (Acts 8:12-18, 19:1-7) both receiving the Holy Ghost and being water baptized in the name of Jesus are requirements for everyone regardless of nationality. As such the same was required of Cornelius and those with him in order to be granted repentance unto life. (Acts 10:43-48, 11:15-18) Personally, I have come to believe in the possibility that the gospel requirements first presented in Acts 2:38, acted upon by those who placed their trust in Jesus, may actually address man's spirit, soul and body individually. (1 Thess. 5:23)

Lastly, I believe God will shine light on what He requires pertaining to the NT rebirth when hungry hearts seek Him. (Cornelius is a perfect example)

Jesus said; those who hunger and thirst after righteousness will be filled.

I've NEVER stated that we should not be baptized or that baptism is not necessry.
What I AM saying is that you carry this too far.

Cornelius got baptized after he found out about it.

THIS DOES NOT MEAN that he was not saved before.

Apparently you do not accept all of the NT.
You do not like Romans 1 or Romans 2, which were written by THE author of Christian theology.

So,,let's say I come to believe in Jesus.
I respect Him, I pray, I love HIm, I change some habits in order to obey Him.

i DON'T KNOW about being baprized.

I die.

Am I going to hell?

 

[Toknow]

If you don't understand what he said, how can you determine what he likes or doesn't like?

OK
I wasn't going to respond,
but I see that @mailmandan gave you a LIKE.

Let me assure you sawdust...
I know what mailmandan believes since I've been posting to him
for about 10 years.

The reason I didn't UNDERSTAND what he wrote...
is because what he wrote is CONVOLUTED and not understandable.

Except by those who vehemently agree with ANYTHING HE STATES.

I, OTOH, like to understand to what I'm replying.
I'm not here to waste my time ...
I'm here to have serious convesation.

 

[mailmandan]

OK
I wasn't going to respond,
but I see that @mailmandan gave you a LIKE.

Let me assure you sawdust...
I know what mailmandan believes since I've been posting to him
for about 10 years.

The reason I didn't UNDERSTAND what he wrote...
is because what he wrote is CONVOLUTED and not understandable.

Except by those who vehemently agree with ANYTHING HE STATES.

I, OTOH, like to understand to what I'm replying.
I'm not here to waste my time ...
I'm here to have serious convesation.

Convoluted and not understandable? This is actually very simple to understand.

John 3:36 - The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (NASB)

DOES NOT OBEY THE SON = REFUSES TO BELIEVE IN THE SON.

John 3:36 - The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him. (HCSB)

 

[Toknow]

Yeah, this topic needed some humor. I don't see it ending any time soon.

Romans 8:30

And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified


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OK
Wait.

I'm not reformed.

But I still like your sense of humor!

 

[Toknow]

Convoluted and not understandable? This is actually very simple to understand.

John 3:36 - The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (NASB)

DOES NOT OBEY THE SON = REFUSES TO BELIEVE IN THE SON.

John 3:36 - The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him. (HCSB)

No Dan...
other posters stated that it was difficult to understand.

You don't care for the word OBEY.

You fight it tooth and nail.

THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY,,,will see the wrath of God.

OBEY = DOING GOOD WORKS.

Works...another word you don't like.

We must believe in the Son in order to be saved.

IF we do NOT OBEY the Son....we will see the wrath of God.


If BELIEVERS do not obey.....

the non-believers are ALREADY LOST.

 

[Toknow]

My reply was not convoluted. You seem to conflate obeying the Son by choosing to believe in the Son with obeying the Son after one believes and is saved. Again, to obey the Son here in (John 3:36) is to choose to believe in the Son, just as we read in John 3:18. Folks who conflate faith and works and teach salvation by faith and works typically stumble over the word "obey" in John 3:36. (NASB)

You mean

we could CHOOSE NOT to OBEY the Son?

And are we discussing non-believers here???


Are non-believers required to obey the Son???

I think not.

 

[Toknow]

It means that faith in Christ is the sole means in which a person is justified or made right with God. It implies that rituals, works, and human effort cannot earn salvation.

Well, you got 3 LIKES.

Which means that all 3 of you do not have a proper understanding of what
FAITH ALONE means.

it's SOLA FIDE.

It has nothing to do with HOW one becomes saved.

I don't know ANY CHRISTIAN that believes we are saved by works.

So,,,apparently,,,it must mean something else.

Perhaps it would behoove us to know what it REALLY means??

 

[Toknow]

There was a point in studies some time ago where I began understanding that "if" was one of the biggest words in Scripture. The Greek has a few different ways to word it to indicate what type of argument is being put forth when it's being stated. I began seeing some of its uses as no different than commands or instruction on what to do or not do - what to think or not think.

There are right ways to use it and wrong ways to use it. Speculation seems to be used a bit too much and one of the bigger flaws in reasoning seems to be drawing conclusions based upon arguments from silence, which at times is just a hypothetical "if" being asserted as fact.

Think I'll start watching clouds more... One of my earliest recollections about God was being very young laying in a field on a beautiful day watching the clouds do what they do and wondering where they came from - who made them. I kind of inherently knew it was a "who".

Clouds.
Yeah.

 

[HeIsHere]

No Dan...
other posters stated that it was difficult to understand.

You don't care for the word OBEY.

You fight it tooth and nail.

THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY,,,will see the wrath of God.

OBEY = DOING GOOD WORKS.

Works...another word you don't like.

We must believe in the Son in order to be saved.

IF we do NOT OBEY the Son....we will see the wrath of God.


If BELIEVERS do not obey.....

the non-believers are ALREADY LOST.

So very ironic.

 

[kinda]

OK
Wait.

I'm not reformed.

But I still like your sense of humor!

It's o.k., you were obviously predestined to not be reformed. lol

You were also predestined to like my sense of humor. lol