The Sin Nature is spiritual lust, not flesh and blood.
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Something about this passage that I've found extremely interesting.
Hebrews 3:14 KJV
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
"we have become" is in the Perfect Tense, indicating that this "have become" is permanent, and the way you know it's permanent is that you hold your confidence to the end.
A valid paraphrase of this passage would be to say, "If you hold your confidence to the end, it means you actually were made a partaker of Christ.
This is the use of the Perfect Tense. It's like when Paul said he'd seen the risen Christ. He would never again be someone who had not seen the risen Christ.
Context.
Matthew 24:8-34 KJV
8) All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
This prophecy is to Israel . . . you will be hated of all nations . . . that is, the gentiles.
10) And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12) And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18) Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19) And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
A promise of preservation to the elect (God's chosen nation).
23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25) Behold, I have told you before.
26) Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
A promise to gather to the promised land all Israelites who survive the great tribulation, exactly as promised repeatedly in the OT.
32) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
This generation, that is, the children of Israel, another promise of preservation.
Israel is told that if they endure to the end of the great tribulation, they will be rescued. Jesus affirms this a few times in His prophecy.
Consider what the apostle is saying here.
You are NOW reconciled to God . . . if you continue in the faith.
If you do not continue (future) in the faith, you are not now (present) reconciled to God.
Your future presence or absence of faith in times to come reveal your state now concerning God.
If you don't continue, then you never were, this is the inescapable teachings of these passages.
John affirms this in his letter, saying,
1 John 2:19 LITV
They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they were of us, they would have remained with us; but they left so that it might be revealed that they all are not of us.
Some in the church are true, and some are not. The untrue are revealed when they leave.
Some have real saving faith, and are born again. Some do not, and because their faith is not true, they eventually leave.
Jesus taught this in His parable.
Matthew 13:20-21 LITV
20) And that sown on the stony places is this: the one hearing the Word, and immediately receiving it with joy,
21) but has no root in himself, but is temporary, and tribulation, or persecution occurring because of the Word, he is at once offended.
Amen!!
Much love!
That's NOT what it means markss.
You've been speaking to MMD too much.
A verse means what it means.
WE MUST ENDURE TILL THE END
means
WE MUST ENDURE TILL THE END.
But this is a long post and it's going to have to wait.
Sorry.
Rather, I've been a serious student of Scriputure for the past 25+ years. I've learned to believe exactly what I read, and continuing until all passages are in harmony. Every last little word.
Sorry for the long post!
Much love
But you're not harmonizing markss.
What you're doing is coming to scripture with a belief system.
You see one verse that says that we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit.
But you literally ignore all the verses that state that we can forfeit out salvation.
So how is that harmonizing?
Maybe you need to find out what SEALED means?
I did this.
Did you?
No. You stayed with what YOU believed to be true between two SEEMINGLY conflicting verses.
The NT cannot conflcit with the NT.
Will get to your other post in a bit.
No markss.
It does NOT mean that if you do not hold on till the end it means you were never a believer.
This is what the OSAS like to think it means.
They change the entire sentence structure and meaning.
This is what it means since it is what is clearly stated.
Hebrews 3:14
4 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.
There's an IF in there.
You're excluding the IF.
IF makes any statement conditional on something.
Here, in Hebr 3:14 the statement is CONDITIONAL on the person holding on the the very end.
We have come to share in Christ
IF
we hold on til the end.
See. No talk of a believer or a believer not really haven't been a believer.
If we SHARE IN CHRIST....means we ARE A BELIEVER.
Do you know anyone that can share in christ but not be a believer?
Your understanding of this verse is not correct.
The very book of Hebrews goes on to state that a BELIEVER can FALL AWAY:
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age
6 and who have fallen[c] away,
You are NOT harmonizing but bringing your own belief system to the scripture.
1 of 3
2 of 3
It's plain English markss.
Read Hebews 6 again.
We could be reconciled NOW.
BUT
NOT be in the future because we DID NOT HOLD FAST.
Your future presence or absence of faith in times to come reveal your state now concerning God.
If you don't continue, then you never were, this is the inescapable teachings of these passages.[/QUOTE]
No sir.
This is incorrect.
A person that
SHARES IN CHRIST...
HAS BEEN ENLIGHTENED
TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFTS
PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
is a SAVED person.
And there is no doubt about this.
Then,,,,that person,,,,,,falls away.
What would they be falling away from??
To fall away from something means you were holding on to something.
I'm so tired of addrssing that verse that I'm not going to.
study up on some church history and find out what it means.
Find out what John was worried about.
Find out who was infiltrating the early churdh in the time of John.
[/QUOTE]
It's plain English markss.
Read Hebews 6 again.
We could be reconciled NOW.
BUT
NOT be in the future because we DID NOT HOLD FAST.
Your future presence or absence of faith in times to come reveal your state now concerning God.
If you don't continue, then you never were, this is the inescapable teachings of these passages.[/QUOTE]
No sir.
This is incorrect.
A person that
SHARES IN CHRIST...
HAS BEEN ENLIGHTENED
TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFTS
PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
is a SAVED person.
And there is no doubt about this.
Then,,,,that person,,,,,,falls away.
What would they be falling away from??
To fall away from something means you were holding on to something.
is this the best you've got markss?
I'm so tired of addrssing that verse that I'm not going to.
study up on some church history and find out what it means.
Find out what John was worried about.
Find out who was infiltrating the early churdh in the time of John.
[/QUOTE]
3 OF 3
SHARES IN CHRIST...
HAS BEEN ENLIGHTENED
TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFTS
PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
And you REALLY want to post Matthew 13:20-21??
Maybe you shouldn't be reading the KJV??
And maybe theology is also necessary to understand what we read?
New International Version
But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
New Living Translation
But since they don’t have deep roots, they don’t last long. They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God’s word.
English Standard Version
yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
Berean Standard Bible
But since he has no root, he remains for only a season. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.
Berean Literal Bible
And he has in himself no root, but is temporary. And having come tribulation or persecution on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
King James Bible
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
New King James Version
yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
New American Standard Bible
yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution occurs because of the word, immediately he falls away.
NASB 1995
yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
NASB 1977
yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
Legacy Standard Bible
yet he has no root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
Amplified Bible
yet he has no [substantial] root in himself, but is only temporary, and when pressure or persecution comes because of the word, immediately he stumbles and falls away [abandoning the One who is the source of salvation].
Christian Standard Bible
But he has no root and is short-lived. When distress or persecution comes because of the word, immediately he falls away.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Yet he has no root in himself, but is short-lived. When pressure or persecution comes because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
American Standard Version
yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while; and when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway he stumbleth.
Contemporary English Version
But they don't have deep roots, and they don't last very long. As soon as life gets hard or the message gets them in trouble, they give up.
English Revised Version
yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while; and when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway he stumbleth.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Since he doesn't have any root, he lasts only a little while. When suffering or persecution comes along because of the word, he immediately falls [from faith].
Good News Translation
But it does not sink deep into them, and they don't last long. So when trouble or persecution comes because of the message, they give up at once.
International Standard Version
but since he doesn't have any root in himself, he lasts for only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes along because of the word, he immediately falls away.
NET Bible
But he has no root in himself and does not endure; when trouble or persecution comes because of the word, immediately he falls away.
New Heart English Bible
yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while. When oppression or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Webster's Bible Translation
Yet he hath not root in himself, but endureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, forthwith he is offended.
Weymouth New Testament
It has struck no root, however, within him. He continues for a time, but when suffering comes, or persecution, because of the Message, he at once stumbles and falls.
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
But since he has no root, he remains for only a season. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.
World English Bible
yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while. When oppression or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.[/QUOTE]
So please explain WHAT saving faith is if it is not this:
SHARES IN CHRIST...
HAS BEEN ENLIGHTENED
TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFTS
PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
And you REALLY want to post Matthew 13:20-21??
Maybe you shouldn't be reading the KJV??
And maybe theology is also necessary to understand what we read?
New International Version
But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
New Living Translation
But since they don’t have deep roots, they don’t last long. They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God’s word.
English Standard Version
yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
Berean Standard Bible
But since he has no root, he remains for only a season. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.
Berean Literal Bible
And he has in himself no root, but is temporary. And having come tribulation or persecution on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
King James Bible
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
New King James Version
yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
New American Standard Bible
yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution occurs because of the word, immediately he falls away.
NASB 1995
yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
NASB 1977
yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
Legacy Standard Bible
yet he has no root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
Amplified Bible
yet he has no [substantial] root in himself, but is only temporary, and when pressure or persecution comes because of the word, immediately he stumbles and falls away [abandoning the One who is the source of salvation].
Christian Standard Bible
But he has no root and is short-lived. When distress or persecution comes because of the word, immediately he falls away.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Yet he has no root in himself, but is short-lived. When pressure or persecution comes because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
American Standard Version
yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while; and when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway he stumbleth.
Contemporary English Version
But they don't have deep roots, and they don't last very long. As soon as life gets hard or the message gets them in trouble, they give up.
English Revised Version
yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while; and when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway he stumbleth.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Since he doesn't have any root, he lasts only a little while. When suffering or persecution comes along because of the word, he immediately falls [from faith].
Good News Translation
But it does not sink deep into them, and they don't last long. So when trouble or persecution comes because of the message, they give up at once.
International Standard Version
but since he doesn't have any root in himself, he lasts for only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes along because of the word, he immediately falls away.
NET Bible
But he has no root in himself and does not endure; when trouble or persecution comes because of the word, immediately he falls away.
New Heart English Bible
yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while. When oppression or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Webster's Bible Translation
Yet he hath not root in himself, but endureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, forthwith he is offended.
Weymouth New Testament
It has struck no root, however, within him. He continues for a time, but when suffering comes, or persecution, because of the Message, he at once stumbles and falls.
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
But since he has no root, he remains for only a season. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.
World English Bible
yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while. When oppression or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.[/QUOTE]
This is a complete mischaracturization.
I'll look over your posts more and see what I can reply to you with.
Much love!
Harmonizing Scripture is not using one to negate another. Both must retain their full meaning. That's what I've done.
"Like to think it means" = lying to myself and others. and here again, that's not what I'm doing.
I'm not here for to give a personal defense. That kind of thing is a conversation killer.
Much love!
Sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, this one?
God's seal of ownership upon you that will last until He collects His purchased possession. Do you think you can overturn God's seal of ownership when He claims anything or anyone as His property? I don't.
Much love!
There is nothing in this post to respond to. It's all erroneous personal comment. This is why ad hominem is considered logical fallacy, it adds nothing to the discussion.
You said:
You stayed with what YOU believed to be true between two SEEMINGLY conflicting verses.
You said I'm coming to Scripture with a belief system, yet what I've done is exegeted the passages and believed what they said.
I know you don't know my study process, and how many years I've studied these things, and how many translations I've compared, and how many words I've studied, to learn their meanings, and how I've studied the grammar, and compared to relevant passages.
It's easy for you to assume, and to announce that assumption to others, that I'm careless and dishonest, but the fact is, you do not know, and in fact you are not right about me. You don't know me, you have your assumptions about me, and you accept them as true.
So what's to be said?
I prefer others repsond to the text, and to the topic. I'm not the topic.
I don't say this to offend, only to redirect the converstation to the topic.
Much love!
All I can say is, this passage is a conditional clause and that is the condition given. You have permanently become a partaker of Christ if you hold your confidence firm to the end.
Holding your confidence to the end is not what makes you a partaker of Christ. Baptism in the Holy Spirit, that is, Immersion into Christ is what makes you a partaker, and if it's real, it lasts. This is the teaching of Scripture. You can say I'm just holding onto fairy tales, I'm saying this is what the Word of God says.
You can find this on your own if you look at the syntax of the words used.
And therefore if you do not hold your confidence to the end it means you had not become a partaker of Christ. This isn't me saying this, the Bible says this, I'm simply telling you what it says. If that means you have a conflict between this passage and another, I suggest re-examining the other passage so it will harmonize.
Much love!