The Sin Nature is spiritual lust, not flesh and blood.

[Toknow]

In regard to John 15:2, Jesus makes a distinction between branches "in" a vine and branches which "abide in" the vine. Merely being self-attached and close to the source of life is not enough and neither is being intertwined with other branches. Only branches that have that vital connection with the vine will bear fruit. A good vinedresser cuts out those dead, fruitless branches and burns them.

Dan,
Does it take lotsa study to learn how to twist the words of Jesus Himself?


Where is there any talk of being BARELY ATTACHED?
Where is there any talk of being INTERTWINED with other branches?


Here it is again......

John 15:2
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away...


Again:

Every BRANCH that is IN JESUS.....IOW a saved person.
UNSAVED PERSONS ARE NOT IN JESUS.

This person that is IN JESUS
is taken away if there is no fruitfulness.


He will be THROWN OUT like a useless branch if he does NOT CONTINUE to ABIDE IN JESUS....TO BE IN JESUS....

John 15:5
6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

WThe analogy Jesus presents here is not about loss of salvation,

Being TAKEN AWAY from THE VINE...which gives LIFE to the branch...

IS, in effect, LOSS OF SALVATION.

jesus said it,
not me.

but about those who put on an appearance of faith but have no spiritual and vital connection with the vine.

HOW can one be more close to the vine....
than to be IN IT???

And where is there any talk of an APPEARANCE of faith?
No talk of faith here.

Jesus is discussing persons IN HIM...
saved persons.

We cannot presume that everyone who appears to have a vital connection with the vine (Judas Iscariot for example) truly does.

Can we assume to believe that Jesus is saying what He means to say?

Is being IN CHRIST different from having a vital connection to Him??

You create such conflict...

As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out:

In me (εν εμο). Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, μη φερον καρπον) the vine-dresser "takes away" (αιρε) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

i prefer Jesus over some book writer.

And this from someone that states that those the Apostles taught were not inspired !
Is AT Robertson inspired??

Then why believe HIM?

 

[Toknow]

I already thoroughly covered this. No distortion. I properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. Your confusion and hostility towards my post demonstrates that you are advocating salvation by works.

No hostility.
Just replying to your posts.

And yes, works are included in salvation.

JESUS said that if we do not bear fruit...
we will be CUT AWAY, TAKEN OFF, REMOVED from the vine.

Thus causing death.

John 15:2 which is under discussion.

 

[Dino246]

it's SILLY or IGNORANT for a Christian person to wonder WHY Christians are debating whether or not it's necessary to obey God?

Do YOU believe it's necessary to obey God?

Maybe YOU are under the Law Dino...
but I am NOT.

You missed the point completely.

 

[mailmandan]

Dan,
Does it take lotsa study to learn how to twist the words of Jesus Himself?

Where is there any talk of being BARELY ATTACHED?
Where is there any talk of being INTERTWINED with other branches?

Here it is again......

John 15:2
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away...

Again:

Every BRANCH that is IN JESUS.....IOW a saved person.
UNSAVED PERSONS ARE NOT IN JESUS.

This person that is IN JESUS
is taken away if there is no fruitfulness.

He will be THROWN OUT like a useless branch if he does NOT CONTINUE to ABIDE IN JESUS....TO BE IN JESUS....

John 15:5
6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Being TAKEN AWAY from THE VINE...which gives LIFE to the branch...

IS, in effect, LOSS OF SALVATION.

jesus said it,
not me.

HOW can one be more close to the vine....
than to be IN IT???

And where is there any talk of an APPEARANCE of faith?
No talk of faith here.

Jesus is discussing persons IN HIM...
saved persons.

Can we assume to believe that Jesus is saying what He means to say?

Is being IN CHRIST different from having a vital connection to Him??

You create such conflict...




i prefer Jesus over some book writer.

And this from someone that states that those the Apostles taught were not inspired !
Is AT Robertson inspired??

Then why believe HIM?

I believe Robertson, because I believe he was spot on in his interpretation. Are the church fathers inspired? Why do you believe them? In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples).

The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit, but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Without that vital union with Christ, there is no spiritual life and can be no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

 

[Toknow]

Actually "to lift and carry away" is a valid translation. Regardless of how one interprets the passage, it is in fact a valid translation.

if you noticed, there are several meaning, as I stated.

Translators of the NT take everything into account.
We could either trust them or not and begin ot translate the NT on our own.

To life and carry away is NOT a valid translation and I explained why.
If you care to discuss,,we could go over it again.

It does not reconcile with John 15:5.
Here Jesus describes what happens if we do not abide in HIM...
verse 2 states that we are IN HIM.....thus abiding in Him.

He's speaking about a believer IN HIM.
John 15:5 explains, by Jesus Himself, what happens to those that do not abide.

Let me ask you . . . do you think that in saying "If anyone does not remain in me", does this mean someone was in Christ, and now is not?

That's exactly what Jesus is saying.
We must abide in Him...
live in HIm...
if not, we are like the dead branches.

Abide means to live....it's a continuous action.
Now...into the future.

"remain", "abide", "dwell", these are valid translations of the word. I can point to millions of houses where I don't live, I don't abide there, I don't remain there, I don't dwell there . . . and I never did.

You NEVER lived there.
correct.

You did not ABIDE there.

Notice also that those that don't abide in Christ are not called branches. They are only compared to branches. Those who abide in Christ are branches. Those who do not are compared to branched.

Much love!

They are called branches.

Let's try agian...


John 15:1-4
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He [a]prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

3 You are already [b]clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

4 Remain in Me, [c]and I in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit [d]of itself [e]but must remain in the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me.


Verse 1 Jesus is the vine. God is the vinedresser

Verse 2 Every branch IN JESUS (a born again believer) that does NOT BEAR FRUIT...God will take away.

Every branch IN JESUS that DOES bear fruit...God will prune so that it bears even MORE fruit.

Verse 3 Jesus said that the branches are ALREADY CLEAN...they are saved.

Verse 4 Jesus is saying that UNLESS one remains in Him,,,he cannot bear fruit.
This means it's possible to NOT REMAIN in Jesus.

And if we DO NOT REMAIN IN Christ...



then verse 6 will apply,,,as per Jesus:

6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME
IF is a conditional word.

It means that it's possible to NOT REMAIN IN CHRIST.

 

[Toknow]

You missed the point completely.

No sir.
I did not miss any point.

You posted without giving attention to what I stated.

 

[markss]

if you noticed, there are several meaning, as I stated.

Translators of the NT take everything into account.
We could either trust them or not and begin ot translate the NT on our own.

To life and carry away is NOT a valid translation and I explained why.
If you care to discuss,,we could go over it again.

It does not reconcile with John 15:5.
Here Jesus describes what happens if we do not abide in HIM...
verse 2 states that we are IN HIM.....thus abiding in Him.

He's speaking about a believer IN HIM.
John 15:5 explains, by Jesus Himself, what happens to those that do not abide.





That's exactly what Jesus is saying.
We must abide in Him...
live in HIm...
if not, we are like the dead branches.

Abide means to live....it's a continuous action.
Now...into the future.




You NEVER lived there.
correct.

You did not ABIDE there.



They are called branches.

Let's try agian...


John 15:1-4
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He [a]prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

3 You are already [b]clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

4 Remain in Me, [c]and I in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit [d]of itself [e]but must remain in the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me.


Verse 1 Jesus is the vine. God is the vinedresser

Verse 2 Every branch IN JESUS (a born again believer) that does NOT BEAR FRUIT...God will take away.

Every branch IN JESUS that DOES bear fruit...God will prune so that it bears even MORE fruit.

Verse 3 Jesus said that the branches are ALREADY CLEAN...they are saved.

Verse 4 Jesus is saying that UNLESS one remains in Him,,,he cannot bear fruit.
This means it's possible to NOT REMAIN in Jesus.

And if we DO NOT REMAIN IN Christ...



then verse 6 will apply,,,as per Jesus:

6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME
IF is a conditional word.

It means that it's possible to NOT REMAIN IN CHRIST.

I don't think I'd have anything more to add. I've shared my understanding from the passage.

Much love!

 

[Toknow]

I don't think I'd have anything more to add. I've shared my understanding from the passage.

Much love!

But it's not correct.

You might want to go through it again.

I think what JESUS said/taught is important to understand.

 

[mailmandan]

No hostility.
Just replying to your posts.

And yes, works are included in salvation.

JESUS said that if we do not bear fruit...
we will be CUT AWAY, TAKEN OFF, REMOVED from the vine.

Thus causing death.

John 15:2 which is under discussion.

Works are the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it.

 

[markss]

But it's not correct.

You might want to go through it again.

I think what JESUS said/taught is important to understand.

I've studied this for years in fact. And you don't even need the Greek to come to these conclusions, it's right there in the King James Bible. I agree with you, it's important that we understand God's teaching throughout the Bible.

I believe my understanding is correct, and the few things I've shared, it viewed apart from all other consideration, show this. Branches only bear fruit by abiding (living) in Christ. Those who don't live in Christ are cast out like you would a dried up branch, to be gathered and burned.

He's using familiar terminology so they would understand. For me, it's about paying attention to every single word, and word form, and then making sure the interpretation is in full harmony with all relevant passages.

Much love!

 

[Edward429451]

The nature of sin is spiritual, not natural. Lust in the heart is the spiritual seed of sin, not anything natural, whether dust, seed, flesh, blood, or bone. It's the spirit and soul that sins against God, and spiritually dies by sin.

Ezek 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Only spiritual beings can sin against God, not the natural things of the earth.

With all due respect Brother, are you nuts? Sin is not natural to us. Our species has fallen and is living under a curse. That is not the fault of your spirit. Rather the (corrupted) soul and flesh body. Paul talks a lot about it in scripture.

 

[Toknow]

I've studied this for years in fact. And you don't even need the Greek to come to these conclusions, it's right there in the King James Bible. I agree with you, it's important that we understand God's teaching throughout the Bible.

I NEVER say it's necessary to know Greek.
I say it's necessary to trust the translators.

And we should not be bringing our own personal belief system to these boards.
This is not eisegesis.

I believe my understanding is correct, and the few things I've shared, it viewed apart from all other consideration, show this. Branches only bear fruit by abiding (living) in Christ. Those who don't live in Christ are cast out like you would a dried up branch, to be gathered and burned.

Agreed.

But John 15:2 is also speaking about bearing fruit....which is doing good works/deeds.
No one ever asks what these good deeds are !

He's using familiar terminology so they would understand. For me, it's about paying attention to every single word, and word form, and then making sure the interpretation is in full harmony with all relevant passages.

Much love!

Agreed,,,,of course.

So, are those in verse 2 saved persons?
And could they stop abiding in Christ?

These are the two important facts to be learned...IMO.

 

[Toknow]

With all due respect Brother, are you nuts? Sin is not natural to us. Our species has fallen and is living under a curse. That is not the fault of your spirit. Rather the (corrupted) soul and flesh body. Paul talks a lot about it in scripture.

I think the other poster means that our problem is a spiritual one.
I'd have to agree.

When Adam fell,,,,he gave in to a spiritual condition.
Before he was SPIRITUALLY alive...
after, he became SPIRITUALLY dead.

He didn't die physically, at least not right away.

Anyway, this is what I believe to be correct...
not sure, of course, what the other member believes.

sorry for cutting in...

 

[markss]

I NEVER say it's necessary to know Greek.
I say it's necessary to trust the translators.

And we should not be bringing our own personal belief system to these boards.
This is not eisegesis.

Of course translators often differ in how they translate. I don't recommend trusting the NIV translators, for instance.

And did you mean exegesis? That's what I prefer, sticking to exactly what is written, nothing more, nothing less.

So, are those in verse 2 saved persons?
And could they stop abiding in Christ?

These are the two important facts to be learned...IMO.

If you want to have this discussion, I'm going to bring in a couple of other passages, which, as we agree, all our interpretations have to harmonize across the entire Scriptures.

I believe every verse is true exactly as written, taking into account, of course, metaphors and similies and other linguistic devices. These passages, are straightforward, and should be accepted for what they say.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

IF you are a child of God NOW, when He appears, we SHALL be like Him. Not, we may be like Him if we endure to the end, just, if you are His child now, you will be like Him then. No qualifiers to modify the meaning.

The same thing is true in this passage:

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

If you are risen with Christ NOW, you SHALL appear with Him then. No other qualifiers. Anyone risen with Christ in this life will appear with Him in glory. None lost.

Much love!

 

[Toknow]

Works are the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it.

Oh.

I'd say obedience to God is the root of salvation.

Of course, we do have to BELIEVE in God first.

But even the word BELIEVE connotates OBEDIENCE in the original Greek.

But, we only like to "go to the Greek" when it suits us.

 

[mailmandan]

Oh.

I'd say obedience to God is the root of salvation.

Of course, we do have to BELIEVE in God first.

But even the word BELIEVE connotates OBEDIENCE in the original Greek.

But, we only like to "go to the Greek" when it suits us.

So, how much obedience does it take? Obedience which "follows" belief in/faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is works.

 

[Toknow]

So, how much obedience does it take? Obedience which "follows" belief in/faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is works.

Dan,
After all these years,,,,I'm sure you know that I consider this to be a rather silly question.

We are to obey God the best we can.
And God will not be mocked.

 

[Dino246]

No sir.
I did not miss any point.

You posted without giving attention to what I stated.

I did give attention to what you stated. I didn't respond to everything.

You missed my point regarding the law... completely, and I am certain of that because you responded by saying, "Maybe YOU are under the law, but I am not."

You asked, "And why is it necessary to debate whether or not we need to obey God"?

I responded by asking whether you follow those three specific laws. Obviously you don't. Yet those are God's commands. That demonstrates that Christians don't "obey God"... because only some of God's commands apply to us.

Some Christians do not understand that they are not under the Law. It is worth "debating" as you say, because some Christians don't understand this.

Do you get the point now?

 

[Toknow]

Of course translators often differ in how they translate. I don't recommend trusting the NIV translators, for instance.

And did you mean exegesis? That's what I prefer, sticking to exactly what is written, nothing more, nothing less.

If you want to have this discussion, I'm going to bring in a couple of other passages, which, as we agree, all our interpretations have to harmonize across the entire Scriptures.

I believe every verse is true exactly as written, taking into account, of course, metaphors and similies and other linguistic devices. These passages, are straightforward, and should be accepted for what they say.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

IF you are a child of God NOW, when He appears, we SHALL be like Him. Not, we may be like Him if we endure to the end, just, if you are His child now, you will be like Him then. No qualifiers to modify the meaning.

The same thing is true in this passage:

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

If you are risen with Christ NOW, you SHALL appear with Him then. No other qualifiers. Anyone risen with Christ in this life will appear with Him in glory. None lost.

Much love!

markss

Just saw this. Musta skipped it.
Putting it down for tomorrow...too late here.

 

[Toknow]

I did give attention to what you stated. I didn't respond to everything.

You missed my point regarding the law... completely, and I am certain of that because you responded by saying, "Maybe YOU are under the law, but I am not."

You asked, "And why is it necessary to debate whether or not we need to obey God"?

I responded by asking whether you follow those three specific laws. Obviously you don't. Yet those are God's commands. That demonstrates that Christians don't "obey God"... because only some of God's commands apply to us.

Some Christians do not understand that they are not under the Law. It is worth "debating" as you say, because some Christians don't understand this.

Do you get the point now?

Not really.

YOU asked ME...not any other Christian...
If I obey THE LAW by giving 3 examples OF THE LAW.

I replied by stating that I AM NOT UNDER THE LAW...
so why would I obey THE LAW?

If YOU follow the Law,,,,you won't get any grief from me...it's your right to follow God the way that you believe to be correct.
I don't follow The Law...I'm under the grace of the New Covenant.

But,,,,the NC does not negate obedience to God.