Faith or Law?

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Right.
Kudos to you for gleening this from just reading the OT and the NT !


(y)


Nothing to add !
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“just reading the OT and the NT !”

lots of prayer is probably the most important part . If we seek the lord sincerely he will respond in ways that help us
 
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Sorry Pilgrim....
that one post was really difficult to read and separate my words from yours.
Maybe it was just that one post.

Anyway, this is a weird system.
Sometimes I forget to put either the beginning or the end of the quotes and it needs to be fixed
PLUS we have a time limit on editing !

Just clicking twice after the quote to which we want to respond would be so much easier.
No worries at all some people are able to take quotes from one comment and they appear in a box then you reply in your own post . I just have no clue how it works lol I apologize my presentation isn’t good
 
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I did not claim that it did. They were debating whether salvation is by grace (Acts 15:11) or by circumcision (Acts 15:1), not whether followers of Christ should follow Christ.
You're twisting the text again. They were debating which of the laws of Moses must be followed, as the plain verses state
 
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Wow that was hacked up huh? I read where it says "...and they commit no wrongful acts...." and that seems to contradict what you said earlier. Why would anyone with faith need to be warned off committing wrongful acts? Why would they need to be spurred on to do good works like Paul says in Hebrews?
Because we are still in the world. Thats why they all say to have courage and to help each other and to reason and exhort with each other. To be part of the true religion. James 1:27
[27]Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
So the faith and the religion is the same. A religion is a practice. And we practice to work correctly.. so none of it contradicts.
 
Not on judgement day ..Matt 25: 31-46
Matthew 25:41-44
[41]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[42]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[43]I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[44]Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

These are those that did not have the faith, works, or the love of Christ
 
Because that's not what Scripture suggests

That's opinion.

Let me ask a few typical questions so we can fast forward since I haven't read much of what you've said here or elsewhere:
  • OSAS and works optional?
  • Do you think genuine faith in God and obedience to God are inseparable?
 
That's opinion.

Let me ask a few typical questions so we can fast forward since I haven't read much of what you've said here or elsewhere:
  • OSAS and works optional?
  • Do you think genuine faith in God and obedience to God are inseparable?

I don't believe it's opinion.

OSAS is not biblical and works are optional and have to be optional

"Genuine" faith? Only God knows who's faith is "genuine". As to obedience if it isn't a choice, separate from faith, then it's something else.
 
Not on judgement day ..Matt 25: 31-46
James 2:14-18,20,22
[14]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[15]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[16]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[17]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[18]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[20]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[22]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
 
James 2:14-18,20,22
[14]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[15]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[16]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[17]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[18]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[20]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[22]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

So faith alone is not sufficient for salvation. If it did it wouldn't need to be made perfect. Are you aware of what perfect means?
 
You're twisting the text again. They were debating which of the laws of Moses must be followed, as the plain verses state
No, in Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of Moses was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so renting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which is the Gospel that James argued that Gentiles had heard and believed in Acts 15:6-7, so he was siding with the Pharisees among the believers (Acts 15:5). In Ezekiel 36:26-27, God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the Law of Moses, which is in accordance with what Peter argued in Acts 15:8-9 in regard to Gentiles receiving the Spirit and having their hearts cleansed, so again he was siding with the Pharisees from among the believers. In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, which is again in accordance with what Peter argued in Acts 15:10-10 that Gentiles are saved by grace just as we are, which was in agreement with the Pharisees among the believers in opposition to the men from Judea in Acts 15:1 who were arguing in favor of salvation by circumcision.
 
You're twisting the text again. They were debating which of the laws of Moses must be followed, as the plain verses state

It's a common practice for 7th Day Adventists to twist scripture to further their agenda.

Like Judaizers who insisted that Gentile converts follow the law, they too, think they have special favor with God for keeping sacred one day out of 7, as if the Lord has not required our whole life to be given to Him.

During the meeting you referenced, the consequence of the Law was quite clear: "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" The yoke, here, is the law. It cannot mean circumcision alone (the topic of debate) because the Jews were quite able to circumcise all their male children. No, this was the law in summa, the whole of the law. It was never given to create sons of God, only slaves.
 
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No, in Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of Moses was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so renting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which is the Gospel that James argued that Gentiles had heard and believed in Acts 15:6-7, so he was siding with the Pharisees among the believers (Acts 15:5). In Ezekiel 36:26-27, God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the Law of Moses, which is in accordance with what Peter argued in Acts 15:8-9 in regard to Gentiles receiving the Spirit and having their hearts cleansed, so again he was siding with the Pharisees from among the believers. In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, which is again in accordance with what Peter argued in Acts 15:10-10 that Gentiles are saved by grace just as we are, which was in agreement with the Pharisees among the believers in opposition to the men from Judea in Acts 15:1 who were arguing in favor of salvation by circumcision.
Jesus lived whilst the old covenant was in operation. Plain fact, gentiles were only asked to follow four laws
 
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Copy and pasted responses don't impress me. Are "works of the law" the same as "works"? Yes or no? Anything more than yes or no from you I stop replying. I've been through too many of these rodeos with you people.
mrsbeasley.gif



I'll be happy to reply.

WORKS OF THE LAW


are NOT the same as

WORKS.

Paul taught that we are NOT under the works of the Law.

Paul taught that we are to do good works.
 
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You contradict yourself. This is why talking with you folks is a real challenge.

Yes faith SHOULD produce good works, I agree, but that is much different than works WILL follow.

Another distraction about faith occuring first. No one is debating that, so to mention it is superfluous to the conversation. If you're claiming faith causes works that again contradicts your SHOULD.
If works automatically follow faith in here would be no need to work out our salvation with dear and trembling. James would not need to tell us faith without works is dead.
You won't get any argument from me!

Sure...in some persons (not all) good works WILL follow their salvation and faith in jesus.

However, good works are NECESSARY in order to be obedient to Jesus.

And Jesus taught that we are to do good works.
 
Jesus lived whilst the old covenant was in operation.
Indeed, and in Matthew 28:16-20, Jesus commissioned his disciples to teach to the Gentiles everything that he taught them.

Plain fact, gentiles were only asked to follow four laws
It is absurd to think that the Jerusalem Council ruled against following over 99% of what Christ taught, but if you think that, then you should follow Christ instead of the Jerusalem Council.
 
Indeed, and in Matthew 28:16-20, Jesus commissioned his disciples to teach to the Gentiles everything that he taught them.


It is absurd to think that the Jerusalem Council ruled against following over 99% of what he taught, but if you think that, then you should follow Christ instead of the Jerusalem Council.
Yep, read the beatitudes for example. You can think anything is absurd you like, but the plain facts remain the plain facts
 
Yep, read the beatitudes for example. You can think anything is absurd you like, but the plain facts remain the plain facts
Acts 15:19-21 does not list the beatitudes. Acts 15:19-21 either contains an exhaustive list for mature believers or it does not, so it is contradictory for you to try to treat it as being an exhaustive list in order to limit what Gentiles should follow while also treating it as being an non-exhaustive list by taking the position that there are other things that Gentiles should follow. Do you think that Acts 15:19-21 contains an exhaustive list or not?
 
Jesus lived whilst the old covenant was in operation. Plain fact, gentiles were only asked to follow four laws

Right. He was born as THE Son of God to save us from the curse of the law. And, while He was alive as Jesus the man, He was accountable to the statutes of the law.

But then He died. And the law has not power over a dead man. Furthermore, He died for another - us - which surpassed the requirements of the law.

You see, God paints pictures so that we might see something in His words.

There is sin and there is the nature of sin. Sin is a word of art that literally means "to miss the mark". It is an archery term. It is the distance between the center of the target and the arrow that was fired. In archery, you cannot have sin without first having a target.

The same is true for the sin of man: without a standard by which one can be measured, there is no sin. For humanity, the first standard by which all are measured was God, Himself...

"And God said, Let Us make man in our image, after our likeness..."

Knowing that the first man, Adam, would sin, God, before time, paid the price for Adam's and his progeny's failures.

"..whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Nevertheless, because of Adam, sin ruled over all men and brought death to all men.

"..sin reigned in death.."

Death was the incontrovertible proof that man was not connected to God the Father: The Father Who never dies. Because of death, there was an awareness of sin, a missing of the mark, for all men.

Later, God, intended to change men by calling them into His presence. The people refused. This was at Sinai:

"When all the people witnessed the thunder and lightning, the sounding of the ram’s horn, and the mountain enveloped in smoke, they trembled and stood at a distance. “Speak to us yourself and we will listen,” they said to Moses. “But do not let God speak to us, or we will die.”

Consequently, God gave man a list of standards instead. This was called the 10 Commandments and the Law.

"The law was added because of transgressions."

By these things, man would know the impossibility of meeting God's standard. These standards were mere lists of behavioral requirements and even then, man would fail to meet all the requirements. By design, this was to increase the urgency of a Savior.

And, since the Savior already paid the price of this intervention, man need only wait for the Savior to appear.

"But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."

The Son of God was sent.

"Therefore still having one son, his beloved, he also sent him to them last, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’"

Because God added the Law and the Commandments as a requirement and a standard for man, God had to rescue man from those requirements or else man could never measure up to the likeness and image of God and be adopted. So, the Savior was born when the Law was in full force.

"..born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law..."

Redemption is a price, paid in full, for an owed debt. Under the Law, the only thing a man could call his own was his own life. BUT, because the law as meant to preserve the people through whom the Savior would come, God could never demand, AS A STANDARD, that man give up his own life.

So, to pay the price of the Law and the Commandments imposed upon man, THE SON PAID THE PRICE OF SIN (missing the mark) EVEN THOUGH HE HAD NO SIN.

What love He has for us!

The Enemy of man used the threat of death against man to gain the cooperation of man and thereby disqualify him from being the object of God's eye. But, once the Son paid the price of death WITHOUT OWING THE PENALTY THEREOF, He disarmed the power of the Law over man.

The Son showed that a man could rise above the requirements of the commandments and the law AND GIVE UP HIS OWN LIFE FOR OTHERS! Because of this, God the Father declared that the Son was the Chosen One.

This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

This was the appearing of the Savior who was needed for man.

But, because Death still took Him (the consequences of sin), God determined that the Son would even rule over Death Itself.

"I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death."

This is how, by exceeding the requirements of the commandments and the law as a man, and by His obedience to the Father unto a death He did not deserve, that He made a public spectacle of the enemies that pursue man.

"He (Jesus Christ) has made alive together with Him (God the Father), having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

How? Because One who was greater than the law and the commandments had come. He was now the standard for man; not as one who obeys the law. But as one who surpasses it in His death for others.

"Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it."

Because of this, the Father determined that THIS is the man made in His image and likeness. Furthermore, all who would receive Him, Christ Jesus, would likewise share in His inheritance.

"The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him."

In Christ we can be adopted into the Godhead and take up the work of our Heavenly Father.
 
It's a common practice for 7th Day Adventists to twist scripture to further their agenda.

Like Judaizers who insisted that Gentile converts follow the law, they too, think they have special favor with God for keeping sacred one day out of 7, as if the Lord has not required our whole life to be given to Him.
Please see my previous post. I am not SDA. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example and the problem that Paul had with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching Gentiles how to follow what he taught but that they were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised (become Jews) in order to become saved (Acts 15:1). The Israelites gave their whole lives to God, which included keeping the 7th day holy, so that is a false dichotomy.

During the meeting you referenced, the consequence of the Law was quite clear: "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" The yoke, here, is the law. It cannot mean circumcision alone (the topic of debate) because the Jews were quite able to circumcise all their male children. No, this was the law in summa, the whole of the law. It was never given to create sons of God, only slaves.
In Acts 15:11, the ruling makes it clear that the heavy burden that no one could bear does not refer to the Law of Moses but to a means of salvation that is an alternative to salvation by grace, namely salvation by circumcision that was proposed by the men from Judea in Acts 15:1

In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as being the word of faith that we proclaim in regards to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of God is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So if Acts 15:10 had been referring to the Law of Moses, then they would have been denying the world of faith that we proclaim and been in direct disagreement with God. In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome, so if Acts 15:10 had been referring to the Law of Moses, then they would have been denying that Gentiles should love God and denying that His commandments are not burdensome. Moreover, the Psalms express an extremely positive view of obeying the Law of Moses, so if Acts 15:10 has been referring to the Law of Moses, then they would have been expressing a view that is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture.
 
By faith comes works. Salvation is doing the will of God. The work of faith is the word of God and salvation is in the word. So being saved is being made perfect. Salvation is there for us. As God says ask and you shall recieve.knock and the door shall be opened. He that has ear to hear and all they that have an eye... meaning insight and understanding to know God. The Lord is sufficient in himself. And Faith is sufficient as like Abraham, he first had to have faith, meaning, trust in God. And then work. That justifies us. Faith and work, when given from God. He did not do it on his own. It was was not his work. Therefore he was perfect in faith. By doing the work that God told him.

But we have a promise from Jesus to be made perfect in all things pertaining to life. Which is life. 2 Peter 1:3-4
[3]According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
To walk perfect in His commandments.
Abraham had faith, but no understanding, because all was not done yet. Jesus and the new covenant is for us in the last days. Commandments and statues to go by. Which is faith and work. Salvation for us is the same path, but with understanding. A work from God. Not just a good work and not just having faith in your mind, but being obedient to word. Where in which you reach Salvation.
Salvation is here. That is why Jesus said he needed to die. For us to know how to keep our Salvation. And not trangress the law or walk in iniquity. For all things to be done and clear.