Please help me to understand

[Inquisitor]

You just said we shouldn't use GOOGLE for our theology.

And how could we ONLY use scripture??

Can YOU understand the Trinity ONLY from scripture?

When Paul saw Jesus...it was a Christophony...
He literally saw Jesus.

In the OT when God manifested as a "person"
it's called a theophony.

Let's do an experiement:

THEOPHONY .... GEMINI (AI)

A theophany in the Old Testament is a temporary, visible, or audible manifestation of God to humans, derived from the Greek words theos ("God") and phainein ("to appear"). These encounters, such as the burning bush or the pillar of cloud, served to reveal God's presence, character, or purpose.
Key aspects of Old Testament theophanies include:

• Purpose: They generally occur to commission leaders (Moses), provide reassurance (Abraham), or deliver messages.
• Forms: Common forms include the "Angel of the Lord" (often interpreted as a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ, or Christophany), fire, smoke, clouds, or human form.
• Examples:
  • Burning Bush: God appearing to Moses (Exodus 3).
  • Mount Sinai: God descending in fire and smoke (Exodus 19).
  • Abraham’s Visitors: God appearing to Abraham (Genesis 18).
  • Jacob’s Wrestling: Jacob wrestling with a man identified as God (Genesis 32).
  • Elijah’s Experience: The "still small voice" at Horeb (1 Kings 19).

While some scholars debate whether dreams and visions qualify, most consider theophanies to be intense, objective manifestations that provided a tangible, yet temporary, glimpse of the divine prior to the incarnation.



CHRISTOPHONY

A Christophany in the New Testament refers to a post-resurrection, non-physical, or glorified appearance of Jesus Christ, such as his appearance to the disciples on the road to Emmaus, to Thomas, or in the blinding light to Paul. It represents a manifestation of the Son of God, distinct from his earthly, incarnate life.
Key Aspects of New Testament Christophanies:

• Post-Resurrection Appearances: The primary examples are found after Jesus' resurrection, where he appeared in a resurrected body that could appear suddenly in closed rooms, eat, and be touched.
• Examples in the Gospels: Jesus appearing to Mary Magdalene, the disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24), and to "doubting Thomas" (John 20).
• Appearances after Ascension: The most prominent example is the blinding light and voice experienced by Saul (Paul) on the road to Damascus in Acts 9, as well as John's vision of the glorified Christ in Revelation.

Contextual Distinctions:

• Christophany vs. Incarnation: A Christophany is a temporary appearance outside his normal, living-on-earth ministry (either pre-incarnate or post-resurrection), whereas the Incarnation refers to his permanent, 33-year human life.
• Theophany: A theophany is a broader term for any visible manifestation of God (Father, Son, or Holy Spirit) to humans.

Note: While some theologians also define "Christophany" as pre-incarnate appearances of Christ in the Old Testament (e.g., as the "Angel of the Lord"), in the context of the New Testament, it specifically refers to his glorified, post-resurrection, or visionary manifestations.

What I am saying is that everyone no matter who they are must use the scripture itself, in the end.

Theology and churches are not a good source of information and have never been reliable.

We are literally snookered when it comes to answering some of these types of questions.

 

[GWH]

Right.

I don't believe we can understand this fully.
Some verses make it sound as though Jesus could walk through walls. (when he appeared to the Apostles post resurrection).
So was He fully human in body?
Was He part human, part spirit?
Or
Could He just be what He wanted at any given moment?

I don't think we can really know this.

Yes, we cannot know now, but I think we agree the last option (the resurrected Jesus had a supernatural/spiritual body able to manifest itself physically/naturally also, because the 5th dimensional being can retain the abilities of the inferior 4-dimensional body) harmonizes the most Scripture.

 

[Toknow]

The angel of the Lord appears over 50 times in the O.T.

The angel of the Lord makes no appearances in the N.T.

The angel of the Lord has the name of God in him (Exodus 23:21).

Angel in Hebrew means messenger.

Angel in the Greek means messenger also.

Jesus was sent (messenger) only to Israel and that means the messenger was Jesus.

Do we say that Jesus was an angel?

No, definitely not an angel.

The angel of the Lord received worship but normal angels rebuke folk when they worship them.

The angel of the Lord invokes covenants, forgives sin, speaks in the first person for God.

Theophany of Christophany in the O.T?

I give up.
If I haven't made myself clear by now...
it means I never will.

I'm not questioning the ANGEL OF THE LORD and what it means!

 

[Toknow]

What I am saying is that everyone no matter who they are must use the scripture itself, in the end.

Theology and churches are not a good source of information and have never been reliable.

We are literally snookered when it comes to answering some of these types of questions.

But we have to use the same terminology!

Do we agree that Jesus has two natures?
This is the hypostatic union.

It's found in the NT....
but the TERM was made up by man.

But do as you will,,,I'm not here to teach you anything....
theophony is understood by all....
christophony is not, but OK.

I surrender!

( I won't be surrendering as easily on salvific issuesj).

 

[Toknow]

Yes, we cannot know now, but I think we agree the last option (the resurrected Jesus had a supernatural/spiritual body able to manifest itself physically/naturally also, because the 5th dimensional being can retain the abilities of the inferior 4-dimensional body) harmonizes the most Scripture.

Agreed.

 

[PaulThomson]

So how long do you think that Jesus was around before he returned to heaven?

You said, "very soon after His encounter Mary Magdalene"?

Almost as soon as she left. This being the day of the feast of first-fruits probably at the same time as the first-fruit sheaf was being presented in the temple, Jesus was being presented before the Father in heaven and the first-begotten from the dead.

 

[Inquisitor]

Almost as soon as she left. This being the day of the feast of first-fruits probably at the same time as the first-fruit sheaf was being presented in the temple, Jesus was being presented before the Father in heaven and the first-begotten from the dead.

The text states in Acts 1, that Jesus was here for forty days after the resurrection.

 

[bytheblood]

There is no difference between blood and bone, but per John 20:19&26 maybe Jesus had a supernatural/spiritual body
able to manifest itself physically/naturally also. It would make sense for the 5th dimensional being to retain the abilities
of the inferior 4-dimensional body.

" There is no difference between blood and bone " ?????? Where did you get THAT from? What medical journal? Or trying to be right, you just made that up? Make it make sense, please,

 

[bytheblood]

Gospel is preached to the Jews first, then the Greeks. The Greeks saved first, Jews last. That is the church history, gospel was preached all around the world, Jews of all people will accept the gospel at last. Jesus prophesied this: "you'll see me no more until you say, blessed is he who comes in the name of the lord!"

So the disciples, who received salvation first, were Greek??

 

[bytheblood]

The text states in Acts 1, that Jesus was here for forty days after the resurrection.

Here is what the scripture says " To whom also He ( Jesus ) showed Himself alive after His passion by many infallible proofs, and BEING SEEN OF THEM FORTY DAYS and was speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:" Acts 1:3. Again, Jesus said to Mary not to touch Him until He had risen to the Father, yet He later told Thomas to touch Him. The scriptures confirming this has already been presented. Must I remind you the Jesus is the Way, the TRUTH, and the Life? The only plausible conclusion is that He had ascended to the Father, sprinkled His blood on the mercy seat (to pay for our sins), and descended in His glorified body into the room where the fearful disciples were meeting ( John 20:19). We don't know how long Jesus was on earth after His resurrection, but we do know how long people SAW HIM.

 

[GWH]

" There is no difference between blood and bone " ?????? Where did you get THAT from? What medical journal? Or trying to be right, you just made that up? Make it make sense, please,

Blood, bone and flesh all refer to the perishable/physical body. Look it up in any medical journal.
Then 1Cor. 15:50 should make sense for you.

 

[PaulThomson]

The text states in Acts 1, that Jesus was here for forty days after the resurrection.

Acts 1:2-4 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:


"Since returning from overseas, I was in in Hamilton for seven months, until the day I was taken up to Kaitaia, where I now reside." I can prove I was in Hamilton for that seven months, because there are lots of people who saw me there during that time."

Would it be logically sensible for someone to insist that that means I must never have left Hamilton on a day trip to another town or city during that seven months?

 

[bytheblood]

Blood, bone and flesh all refer to the perishable/physical body. Look it up in any medical journal.
Then 1Cor. 15:50 should make sense for you.

Are you then saying that Jesus, who was physically blood, bone and flesh, perished? " For Thou wilt not leave My soul in hell; neither wilt Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption," Psalms 16:10

 

[Mem]

That's exactly why I asked him that question.

We know there were over 500 witnesses of the risen Christ according to Paul.

So I would assume Jesus was here for 40 days (Acts 1) before ascending.

I can assume, then that you consider Jesus' "don't cling to me" command as figurative while @PaulThomson reads it literally?

 

[GWH]

Are you then saying that Jesus, who was physically blood, bone and flesh, perished? " For Thou wilt not leave My soul in hell; neither wilt Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption," Psalms 16:10

I am sharing what 1Cor. 15 teaches: Our earthly bodies will be changed into spiritual bodies.
I also opined that the resurrected Jesus had a supernatural/spiritual body able to manifest itself physically/naturally also,
because the 5th dimensional being can retain the abilities of the inferior 4-dimensional body) harmonizes the most Scripture.

I also believe Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).

What are you saying?

 

[bytheblood]

I am sharing what 1Cor. 15 teaches: Our earthly bodies will be changed into spiritual bodies.
I also opined that the resurrected Jesus had a supernatural/spiritual body able to manifest itself physically/naturally also,
because the 5th dimensional being can retain the abilities of the inferior 4-dimensional body) harmonizes the most Scripture.

I also believe Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).

What are you saying?

I asked a question, did you answer it?

 

[GWH]

I asked a question, did you answer it?

Yes

 

[PaulThomson]

Yes

In your theory, is the physical body Jesus is able to manifest in exactly the same physical body as He died and was buried in, but now enlivened directly by spirit rather than blood? Or is it a series of different bodies that He creates each time He manifests anywhere in person when He comes out of the spiritual realm into the physical?

 

[GWH]

In your theory, is the physical body Jesus is able to manifest in exactly the same physical body as He died and was buried in, but now enlivened directly by spirit rather than blood? Or is it a series of different bodies that He creates each time He manifests anywhere in person when He comes out of the spiritual realm into the physical?

My "theory" is what Paul said in 1Cor. 15:35-50, which indicates that earthly bodies will be changed into spiritual bodies having
supernatural abilities while having a similar appearance to the physically/naturally body, but presumably healed of deformities,
although Jesus showed his scars to the doubting Thomas. I opine that this will be possible because the 5th dimensional being
can retain the abilities of the inferior 4-dimensional body) harmonizes the most Scripture.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
In your theory, is the physical body Jesus is able to manifest in exactly the same physical body as He died and was buried in, but now enlivened directly by spirit rather than blood? Or is it a series of different bodies that He creates each time He manifests anywhere in person when He comes out of the spiritual realm into the physical?

My "theory" is what Paul said in 1Cor. 15:35-50, which indicates that earthly bodies will be changed into spiritual bodies having
supernatural abilities while having a similar appearance to the physically/naturally body, but presumably healed of deformities,
although Jesus showed his scars to the doubting Thomas. I opine that this will be possible because the 5th dimensional being
can retain the abilities of the inferior 4-dimensional body) harmonizes the most Scripture.

Is the glorified resurrected body the exact same physical body that died, but with a set of upgrades added and handicaps healed? Or is the physical body that Jesus is manifesting physically after glorification a different recreated physical body each time it appears?