Please help me to understand

[Lovette]

" But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first." Matthew 19:30

Gospel is preached to the Jews first, then the Greeks. The Greeks saved first, Jews last. That is the church history, gospel was preached all around the world, Jews of all people will accept the gospel at last. Jesus prophesied this: "you'll see me no more until you say, blessed is he who comes in the name of the lord!"

 

[Lovette]

I believe the problem here is that you do post that no one has ever seen God.

But then, at times, you post that Jacob wrestled with "a man" and you post more of the verse "For I have seen God face to face".

You're creating a conflict.
Either God can be seen...
or He cannot.

No I did not. God cannot be seen, THEOPHANY - revelation of God through a medium - can be seen, even felt. Jacob didn't wrestle with God directly, he wrestled with an ANGEL of God, so if there were a conflict, then it must've been created by the bible itself. I didn't post that Jacob wrestled with a "man", I QUOTED Gen. 32:24.

 

[Lovette]

All these recipients are definitely not in a trance but fully coherent.

You're entitled to your own interpretation of "in the spirit". I'm just telling you, that per 1 Jn. 4:1-4, unless the figure they encountered was birthed by virgin Mary in Bethlehem, it's a vision of the future Savior. You can call that Christophany, nonetheless it's just a vision.

 

[bytheblood]

But how do you harmonize that with 1Cor. 15:50? I do so by understanding that Jesus had not yet been translated to heaven.

Remember when Jesus did not allow Mary to touch Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father ( John 20:17 )? In my opinion, after this is when He ascended and put His blood on the mercy seat to pay for our sins, once for all. After He descended He allowed people to touch Him. In regards to 1 Cor. 15:50, Jesus is no longer flesh and blood, but flesh and bone. Blood is for the life of " all flesh " ( Lev. 17:14 ) who reside on Earth.

 

[bytheblood]

Since most, if not all, regard Christ ( the Word ) as holding the title of God also, could the " man" Jacob wrestled with be a Christophany ? That way when the bible says that people have seen God, it would not be incorrect, but just not God the Father.

 

[GWH]

See my response to the same essential argument from Inquisitor. #338

Okay, and see my #336.

 

[GWH]

Remember when Jesus did not allow Mary to touch Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father ( John 20:17 )? In my opinion, after this is when He ascended and put His blood on the mercy seat to pay for our sins, once for all. After He descended He allowed people to touch Him. In regards to 1 Cor. 15:50, Jesus is no longer flesh and blood, but flesh and bone. Blood is for the life of " all flesh " ( Lev. 17:14 ) who reside on Earth.

There is no difference between blood and bone, but per John 20:19&26 maybe Jesus had a supernatural/spiritual body
able to manifest itself physically/naturally also. It would make sense for the 5th dimensional being to retain the abilities
of the inferior 4-dimensional body.

 

[Inquisitor]

You're entitled to your own interpretation of "in the spirit". I'm just telling you, that per 1 Jn. 4:1-4, unless the figure they encountered was birthed by virgin Mary in Bethlehem, it's a vision of the future Savior. You can call that Christophany, nonetheless it's just a vision.

You may be confused Lovette.

Your quotation of 1 John 1-4, concerns false prophets.

A Christophany in the O.T has nothing to do with false prophecies rather, it is an alternative
way of understanding the scripture.

 

[Mem]

So how long do you think that Jesus was around before he returned to heaven?

You said, "very soon after His encounter Mary Magdalene"?

I gather @PaulThomson posits that Jesus returned to heaven as soon as He told her, "I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to my God and your God (Jn 20:17)." The subsequent verse is witness that she went and announced this to the disciples.

But appearing after this to the other women on their way to the disciples with the good news from the angels, the women clung to His feet and he did not tell them to stop doing so and he did not say He was ascending to the Father, because He had already been there and come back. How did He get from the garden to the women on their way to the disciples in Jerusalem, without a glorified body?

Mary Magdalene is also accounted for in the witness of the women, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, touching his feet (Matt 28:1-10).
So, in the former Jesus appears first to Mary Magdelene (Mark 16:9) after she runs to the disciples to tell them the tomb is empty (John 20)
(somewhere in here Jesus ascends to our Father)
It then appears that Mary Magdalene meets up with the other Mary to go and see the tomb where Jesus meets them (perhaps the other Mary was among the disciples when she goes to tell them that Jesus had told her He was ascending).

 

[Toknow]

There are folk in the O.T and the N.T that experience visions or more correctly. Folk that are permitted
to view the spiritual world, that is, the real world. There are two schools of thought on this topic on what
these visions are describing, be it God (YHWH) or the pre-incarnate Christ. Further, are the recipients in
an altered state such as asleep, in a trance, not coherent? Or are the recipients full aware (coherent)
and carrying on in their daily activities when the vision occurs?

Theophany is a visible display of God given to a recipient such as Moses or Joshua.

A Christophany is a vision of the Word (Christ, the Messiah) and shows a man or a son of man in the
vision.

I believe we agree partially.
A THEOPHONY is ALSO a manifestation of Jesus in the OT.

Also, a theophony is NOT a VISIBLE display of GOD...
but a SIGN of God that is not human or man-like in nature (as is a Christophony).

For instance in the burning bush it's fire --- not a human-like figure.

And,,,I still believe using both titles will cause confusion.

I've asked for links as to the clarification of the meaning of Christophony and none have been provided.

Does this mean that you agree with Wiki?

THEOPHONY is BEFORE the ascension. (OT)
CHRISTOPHONY is AFTER the ascension. (NT)

In the Scripture, visions or revelations that occur with the recipient in a conscious, and coherent state,
often described as "open visions", are distinct from dreams or trances. Because they are active and awake
at the onset of the spiritual vision.

Moses and the experience of the burning bush was a direct "face-to-face" interaction. Moses was directly
communicating and not in a trance. Moses was desperately trying to get the Lord to choose his brother as
Moses did not speak well. Further, the Lord commanded Moses to take of his sandals in the presence of
the Lord. Moses was fully coherent and definitely not in a trance.

The level of detail described such as in Ezekiel's vision is a testament to Ezekiel being fully coherent.
The moment Ezekiel looked up in that divine vision at the man on the throne. Ezekiel at that very moment
was face down on the ground and of course Ezekiel was overwhelmed.

Joshua and the Captain of the Host in heaven (Joshua 5:13-15), Joshua is near Jericho, fully awake, when
he sees a man with a drawn sword. Joshua asks, "Are you for us or for our enemies?" and when he realizes
it is the Lord, he takes off his sandals, interacting in a fully conscious state.

All these recipients are definitely not in a trance but fully coherent.

 

[Inquisitor]

You're entitled to your own interpretation of "in the spirit". I'm just telling you, that per 1 Jn. 4:1-4, unless the figure they encountered was birthed by virgin Mary in Bethlehem, it's a vision of the future Savior. You can call that Christophany, nonetheless it's just a vision.

I asked AI to examine the scripture regarding 'the angel of the Lord' and the angels identity.

Also asked AI whether a Theophany or a Christophany would be more accurate.

The Angel of the LORD speaks and acts as God Himself

In many passages, the Angel of the LORD is distinguished from God yet simultaneously identified as God.

Speaks as God (first person)

Exodus 3:2–6

“The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire…” (v.2)
…
“God called to him out of the bush…” (v.4)
…
“I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham…” (v.6)​

— The narrative begins with the angel of the LORD but immediately says God speaks.


Receives worship / holy ground

Exodus 3:5

“Take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.”​

Compare this with ordinary angels:


Revelation 22:8–9

“You must not do that! … Worship God.”​

Ordinary angels reject worship; the Angel of the LORD does not.


Speaks with divine authority

Genesis 22:11–12, 15–18

“The angel of the LORD called to him from heaven…
… now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son… from me.”​

Then:

“By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD…”​

The Angel speaks as the LORD Himself.


Called God by humans

Genesis 16:7–13


After the Angel of the LORD speaks to Hagar:

“So she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, ‘You are a God of seeing.’”​

Has power to forgive sin / remove guilt

Zechariah 3:1–4

“The angel of the LORD… said, ‘Behold, I have taken your iniquity away from you.’”​

Removal of sin is a divine act.


Ordinary angels are clearly different

Other angels consistently appear as servants or messengers.

They refuse worship

Revelation 19:10

“I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said… ‘Worship God.’”​

They speak for God, not as God

Luke 1:19

“I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God…”​

They are distinct, subordinate beings.


They are ministering spirits

Hebrews 1:14

“Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve…?”​

They are never identified directly as God.


Why the difference is so vast (from Scripture)

The Angel of the LORD:

• Speaks as God
• Bears the divine name
• Receives reverence without rebuke
• Exercises divine authority
• Sometimes is distinguished from God yet also called God

Ordinary angels:

• Are servants
• Refuse worship
• Speak in third-person authority (“thus says the Lord”)
• Never claim divine identity

The New Testament clue

A major shift occurs:


After the incarnation, the title “Angel of the LORD” essentially disappears as a unique figure.


Instead:


John 1:18

“No one has ever seen God; the only Son… he has made him known.”​

John 12:41 (referring back to Isaiah’s vision)

“Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.”​

The NT repeatedly teaches that the Son reveals God.


Theophany or Christophany? (Scripture-based reasoning)
Option A — Theophany

A visible manifestation of God.


Supporting idea:


Exodus 3 alternates freely between:

• “angel of the LORD”
• “God”
• “the LORD”

This shows divine manifestation.


Option B — Christophany (pre-incarnate Son)

NT passages strongly shape this interpretation:


John 1:18

“No one has ever seen God…”​

Yet people clearly “see” God in Angel-of-the-LORD encounters — suggesting the visible revealer is the Son.


1 Corinthians 10:4

“The Rock was Christ.”​

Paul identifies Christ active in Old Testament events.


Jude 5 (textual tradition)

“Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt…”​

Again placing Christ in OT deliverance.


If forced to choose (purely from Scripture trajectory)

The biblical pattern points most strongly toward:

➜ Christophany (a pre-incarnate appearance of the Son)

Because:

1. God is seen — yet John says no one has seen the Father (John 1:18).
2. The figure is distinct from God yet fully divine.
3. The Son is repeatedly presented as the one who reveals God.
4. After Christ’s incarnation, this unique “Angel of the LORD” figure fades from Scripture.

Summary (scriptural comparison)

Angel of the LORD Other angels Speaks as GodSpeaks for GodCalled GodNever called GodReceives reverenceRejects worshipForgives / judgesServants onlyUnique OT figureMany created beings

Final scriptural conclusion

The Angel of the LORD is not merely another angel but a unique divine messenger who:

• is distinguished from God,
• yet identified as God,
• and functions as God’s visible self-revelation.

Within the full biblical witness, this aligns most naturally with a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ.

 

[Inquisitor]

I believe we agree partially.
A THEOPHONY is ALSO a manifestation of Jesus in the OT.

Also, a theophony is NOT a VISIBLE display of GOD...
but a SIGN of God that is not human or man-like in nature (as is a Christophony).

For instance in the burning bush it's fire --- not a human-like figure.

And,,,I still believe using both titles will cause confusion.

I've asked for links as to the clarification of the meaning of Christophony and none have been provided.

Does this mean that you agree with Wiki?

THEOPHONY is BEFORE the ascension. (OT)
CHRISTOPHONY is AFTER the ascension. (NT)

I put an AI explanation of Theophany and Christophany in a post to Lovett #351.

 

[Inquisitor]

I gather @PaulThomson posits that Jesus returned to heaven as soon as He told her, "I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to my God and your God (Jn 20:17)." The subsequent verse is witness that she went and announced this to the disciples.



Mary Magdalene is also accounted for in the witness of the women, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, touching his feet (Matt 28:1-10).
So, in the former Jesus appears first to Mary Magdelene (Mark 16:9) after she runs to the disciples to tell them the tomb is empty (John 20)
(somewhere in here Jesus ascends to our Father)
It then appears that Mary Magdalene meets up with the other Mary to go and see the tomb where Jesus meets them (perhaps the other Mary was among the disciples when she goes to tell them that Jesus had told her He was ascending).

That's exactly why I asked him that question.

We know there were over 500 witnesses of the risen Christ according to Paul.

So I would assume Jesus was here for 40 days (Acts 1) before ascending.

 

[Inquisitor]

I believe we agree partially.
A THEOPHONY is ALSO a manifestation of Jesus in the OT.

Also, a theophony is NOT a VISIBLE display of GOD...
but a SIGN of God that is not human or man-like in nature (as is a Christophony).

For instance in the burning bush it's fire --- not a human-like figure.

And,,,I still believe using both titles will cause confusion.

I've asked for links as to the clarification of the meaning of Christophony and none have been provided.

Does this mean that you agree with Wiki?

THEOPHONY is BEFORE the ascension. (OT)
CHRISTOPHONY is AFTER the ascension. (NT)

We cannot use Google, Theology, or Church teaching, because in the end we can only use the scripture.

There are far too many conflicts among theologians and church organizations, over an array of topics.

I asked AI to give it a shot and restricted AI to the scripture only.

Interesting that when it came to push and shove that AI preferred a Christophany.

 

[Toknow]

Some folk think that God in the Old Testament was the Father and Jesus only shows up at the
incarnation (Theophany).[7QUOTE]

Theophony does not mean the incarnation.



The incarnation is God made flesh.....IOW,,,the birth of Jesus.

So, agreed that some folk are wrong.

A theophony is any time GOD IS SEEN...but He is seen a Jesus, or the Word, as you've stated..
BECAUSE
God Father has NEVER appeared to mankind in human form.

Another group thinks that the manifestations of God (YHWH) in the O.T. are of a man on the throne.
that man is the Word, the Messiah, the Lord of heaven and earth (Christophany).

Agreed,,but why are you changing the defining word??


Mankind has never heard the Father speak nor has mankind ever seen His form (John 5:37).

More accurately, in the visions or in real life the Lord appears it is not Jesus but the Word.

The Word steps down into our world (the darkness) and becomes Jesus.

The Word appears as the 'son of the Gods' as in the manifestation in the furnace below.

Daniel 3:25
He said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and
the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

The appearance of the Word in the furnace was visibly seen by Nebuchadnezzar.

The scripture is the revelation of Jesus Christ (the Word) and the scripture is not the revelation
of the Father.

Agreed.

I think you're confusing me with another member.

 

[Toknow]

I put an AI explanation of Theophany and Christophany in a post to Lovett #351.

It's explaining what THE ANGEL OF THE LORD IS.

This is not what I'm referring to.

I believe THEOPHONY is OT appearances of God.
and
Christophony is NT appearances of Jesus.

 

[Toknow]

We cannot use Google, Theology, or Church teaching, because in the end we can only use the scripture.

There are far too many conflicts among theologians and church organizations, over an array of topics.

I asked AI to give it a shot and restricted AI to the scripture only.

Interesting that when it came to push and shove that AI preferred a Christophany.

You just said we shouldn't use GOOGLE for our theology.

And how could we ONLY use scripture??

Can YOU understand the Trinity ONLY from scripture?

When Paul saw Jesus...it was a Christophony...
He literally saw Jesus.

In the OT when God manifested as a "person"
it's called a theophony.

Let's do an experiement:

THEOPHONY .... GEMINI (AI)

A theophany in the Old Testament is a temporary, visible, or audible manifestation of God to humans, derived from the Greek words theos ("God") and phainein ("to appear"). These encounters, such as the burning bush or the pillar of cloud, served to reveal God's presence, character, or purpose.
Key aspects of Old Testament theophanies include:

• Purpose: They generally occur to commission leaders (Moses), provide reassurance (Abraham), or deliver messages.
• Forms: Common forms include the "Angel of the Lord" (often interpreted as a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ, or Christophany), fire, smoke, clouds, or human form.
• Examples:
  • Burning Bush: God appearing to Moses (Exodus 3).
  • Mount Sinai: God descending in fire and smoke (Exodus 19).
  • Abraham’s Visitors: God appearing to Abraham (Genesis 18).
  • Jacob’s Wrestling: Jacob wrestling with a man identified as God (Genesis 32).
  • Elijah’s Experience: The "still small voice" at Horeb (1 Kings 19).

While some scholars debate whether dreams and visions qualify, most consider theophanies to be intense, objective manifestations that provided a tangible, yet temporary, glimpse of the divine prior to the incarnation.



CHRISTOPHONY

A Christophany in the New Testament refers to a post-resurrection, non-physical, or glorified appearance of Jesus Christ, such as his appearance to the disciples on the road to Emmaus, to Thomas, or in the blinding light to Paul. It represents a manifestation of the Son of God, distinct from his earthly, incarnate life.
Key Aspects of New Testament Christophanies:

• Post-Resurrection Appearances: The primary examples are found after Jesus' resurrection, where he appeared in a resurrected body that could appear suddenly in closed rooms, eat, and be touched.
• Examples in the Gospels: Jesus appearing to Mary Magdalene, the disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24), and to "doubting Thomas" (John 20).
• Appearances after Ascension: The most prominent example is the blinding light and voice experienced by Saul (Paul) on the road to Damascus in Acts 9, as well as John's vision of the glorified Christ in Revelation.

Contextual Distinctions:

• Christophany vs. Incarnation: A Christophany is a temporary appearance outside his normal, living-on-earth ministry (either pre-incarnate or post-resurrection), whereas the Incarnation refers to his permanent, 33-year human life.
• Theophany: A theophany is a broader term for any visible manifestation of God (Father, Son, or Holy Spirit) to humans.

Note: While some theologians also define "Christophany" as pre-incarnate appearances of Christ in the Old Testament (e.g., as the "Angel of the Lord"), in the context of the New Testament, it specifically refers to his glorified, post-resurrection, or visionary manifestations.

 

[Toknow]

Agreement is good! Yes, John 20:19&26 make it sound like Jesus already had a supernatural/spiritual body,
so maybe it is possible for that body to manifest itself physically/naturally also. It would make sense for the
5th dimensional being to retain the abilities of the inferior 4-dimensioal body.

Right.

I don't believe we can understand this fully.
Some verses make it sound as though Jesus could walk through walls. (when he appeared to the Apostles post resurrection).
So was He fully human in body?
Was He part human, part spirit?
Or
Could He just be what He wanted at any given moment?

I don't think we can really know this.

 

[Inquisitor]

It's explaining what THE ANGEL OF THE LORD IS.

This is not what I'm referring to.

I believe THEOPHONY is OT appearances of God.
and
Christophony is NT appearances of Jesus.

The angel of the Lord appears over 50 times in the O.T.

The angel of the Lord makes no appearances in the N.T.

The angel of the Lord has the name of God in him (Exodus 23:21).

Angel in Hebrew means messenger.

Angel in the Greek means messenger also.

Jesus was sent (messenger) only to Israel and that means the messenger was Jesus.

Do we say that Jesus was an angel?

No, definitely not an angel.

The angel of the Lord received worship but normal angels rebuke folk when they worship them.

The angel of the Lord invokes covenants, forgives sin, speaks in the first person for God.

Theophany of Christophany in the O.T?

 

[Inquisitor]

Right.

I don't believe we can understand this fully.
Some verses make it sound as though Jesus could walk through walls. (when he appeared to the Apostles post resurrection).
So was He fully human in body?
Was He part human, part spirit?
Or
Could He just be what He wanted at any given moment?

I don't think we can really know this.

That's a better answer as we are very ignorant creatures.