Can English translations be trusted with regards to John Chapter 3?

[LeeLoving]

In the English translations of John Chapter 3 Jesus says if you believe in him you are saved.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (KJV)
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (NIV)

From the wording it seems to be that simply believing he exists is enough to be saved: "believing in him". But according to what I have learned the Greek "word" for belief Pisteuō (πιστεύω) means something more than believing. According to this believing is simply used to capture what pisteuō means since there is no English equivalent. This is rather distressing because in English the message Jesus preaches to Nicodemus here is rather simple, if you believe in him you are saved. Apparently though, he means something else, which is not reflected in the English translation.

Here is what Google says regarding Pisteuō

Pisteuō (πιστεύω), a Greek New Testament verb commonly translated as "to believe," means far more than intellectual agreement. Its core, active meaning is to trust, rely on, cling to, or have faith in someone or something. It represents a profound, personal commitment and surrender rather than a casual acknowledgment.

So according to this Jesus is not saying to believe in him, but to personally commit and surrender. This is foreign to me and how I read John Chapter 3. To me, in English, it sincerely reads like he is just saying to believe in him.

Hopefully my concern is communicated. Within my faith I don't know how to see John 3 differently. I have a tendency to just trust the English translation. Is it the case that some people are making a bigger deal out of this than it actually is? Like could the author of John simply have meant believing in Jesus and not this more complicated meaning? I don't know how to think about this, because I don't want to go with something that is not the truth.

 

[Headinghome]

In the English translations of John Chapter 3 Jesus says if you believe in him you are saved.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (KJV)
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (NIV)

From the wording it seems to be that simply believing he exists is enough to be saved: "believing in him". But according to what I have learned the Greek "word" for belief Pisteuō (πιστεύω) means something more than believing. According to this believing is simply used to capture what pisteuō means since there is no English equivalent. This is rather distressing because in English the message Jesus preaches to Nicodemus here is rather simple, if you believe in him you are saved. Apparently though, he means something else, which is not reflected in the English translation.

Here is what Google says regarding Pisteuō

Pisteuō (πιστεύω), a Greek New Testament verb commonly translated as "to believe," means far more than intellectual agreement. Its core, active meaning is to trust, rely on, cling to, or have faith in someone or something. It represents a profound, personal commitment and surrender rather than a casual acknowledgment.

So according to this Jesus is not saying to believe in him, but to personally commit and surrender. This is foreign to me and how I read John Chapter 3. To me, in English, it sincerely reads like he is just saying to believe in him.

Hopefully my concern is communicated. Within my faith I don't know how to see John 3 differently. I have a tendency to just trust the English translation. Is it the case that some people are making a bigger deal out of this than it actually is? Like could the author of John simply have meant believing in Jesus and not this more complicated meaning? I don't know how to think about this, because I don't want to go with something that is not the truth.

Hi friend,
Good point there. You show much maturity looking at the original language. That is the key to our whole understanding of His word.
Remember, English is a very "subjective" language, whereas Greek is much more precise.
Your being able to trust the English translation? Of course! Yes, but making sure correct Greek definitions reflect our understanding
is important.

 

[Lovette]

Yes, "believe" is not just intellectually agrees on something, but deep down you're utterly convinced, and you actively follow example.

The issue I have, though, is"only begotten", because there are other "sons of God". In Genesis, Isaac was called Abraham's "only begotten son", but he wasn't the only son, there were Ishmael before him and Kenturah after him. A better translation would be "the only legitimate heir".

 

[Omegatime]

First, I would go to similar verses.

Acts 2:21
And it shall be that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.’

 

[tablet123]

Yes, "believe" is not just intellectually agrees on something, but deep down you're utterly convinced, and you actively follow example.

The issue I have, though, is"only begotten", because there are other "sons of God". In Genesis, Isaac was called Abraham's "only begotten son", but he wasn't the only son, there were Ishmael before him and Kenturah after him. A better translation would be "the only legitimate heir".

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

All angels are created.

And Adam and Eve were created and the rest born.

But the Son is begotten of God.

Angels are known as sons of God but not begotten.

Humans led of the Spirit are sons of God but not begotten.

Only the Son is begotten.

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God because He is the only human conceived by God.

That is why it is a capital S for Son.

Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

1Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The Son, the man Christ Jesus is the personal human body of God.

To provide salvation for it is not possible that a man born of man and woman could do it.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Gen 16:15 And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael

Gen 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Gen 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Abraham had 2 sons, Ishmael first, and then Isaac.

Even though he had 2 sons Isaac is the only begotten son of Abraham because Isaac is conceived by Abraham's wife.

And the seed of promise.

Ishmael was born of a bond woman.

And Jacob, Israel, was not born yet.

Isaac the son of his wife, the seed of promise, in that setting was the only son Abraham had when he offered up Isaac.

So Isaac is the only begotten son of Abraham according to the promise.

 

[Melach]

In the English translations of John Chapter 3 Jesus says if you believe in him you are saved.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (KJV)
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (NIV)

From the wording it seems to be that simply believing he exists is enough to be saved: "believing in him". But according to what I have learned the Greek "word" for belief Pisteuō (πιστεύω) means something more than believing. According to this believing is simply used to capture what pisteuō means since there is no English equivalent. This is rather distressing because in English the message Jesus preaches to Nicodemus here is rather simple, if you believe in him you are saved. Apparently though, he means something else, which is not reflected in the English translation.

Here is what Google says regarding Pisteuō

Pisteuō (πιστεύω), a Greek New Testament verb commonly translated as "to believe," means far more than intellectual agreement. Its core, active meaning is to trust, rely on, cling to, or have faith in someone or something. It represents a profound, personal commitment and surrender rather than a casual acknowledgment.

So according to this Jesus is not saying to believe in him, but to personally commit and surrender. This is foreign to me and how I read John Chapter 3. To me, in English, it sincerely reads like he is just saying to believe in him.

Hopefully my concern is communicated. Within my faith I don't know how to see John 3 differently. I have a tendency to just trust the English translation. Is it the case that some people are making a bigger deal out of this than it actually is? Like could the author of John simply have meant believing in Jesus and not this more complicated meaning? I don't know how to think about this, because I don't want to go with something that is not the truth.

the english translation is fine. you just have to keep reading till verse 36

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. "

 

[timf]

This was clarified later in John;

Joh_8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

[GWH]

In the English translations of John Chapter 3 Jesus says if you believe in him you are saved.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (KJV)
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (NIV)

From the wording it seems to be that simply believing he exists is enough to be saved: "believing in him". But according to what I have learned the Greek "word" for belief Pisteuō (πιστεύω) means something more than believing. According to this believing is simply used to capture what pisteuō means since there is no English equivalent. This is rather distressing because in English the message Jesus preaches to Nicodemus here is rather simple, if you believe in him you are saved. Apparently though, he means something else, which is not reflected in the English translation.

Here is what Google says regarding Pisteuō

Pisteuō (πιστεύω), a Greek New Testament verb commonly translated as "to believe," means far more than intellectual agreement. Its core, active meaning is to trust, rely on, cling to, or have faith in someone or something. It represents a profound, personal commitment and surrender rather than a casual acknowledgment.

So according to this Jesus is not saying to believe in him, but to personally commit and surrender. This is foreign to me and how I read John Chapter 3. To me, in English, it sincerely reads like he is just saying to believe in him.

Hopefully my concern is communicated. Within my faith I don't know how to see John 3 differently. I have a tendency to just trust the English translation. Is it the case that some people are making a bigger deal out of this than it actually is? Like could the author of John simply have meant believing in Jesus and not this more complicated meaning? I don't know how to think about this, because I don't want to go with something that is not the truth.

"IN" in the NT means having the HS indwelling (cf. Eph. 1:3-15, Rom. 8:9),
which is indeed what occurs at the moment of repentance/surrender (Rev. 3:20).

 

[Watchman22]

In the English translations of John Chapter 3 Jesus says if you believe in him you are saved.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (KJV)
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (NIV)

From the wording it seems to be that simply believing he exists is enough to be saved: "believing in him". But according to what I have learned the Greek "word" for belief Pisteuō (πιστεύω) means something more than believing. According to this believing is simply used to capture what pisteuō means since there is no English equivalent. This is rather distressing because in English the message Jesus preaches to Nicodemus here is rather simple, if you believe in him you are saved. Apparently though, he means something else, which is not reflected in the English translation.

Here is what Google says regarding Pisteuō

Pisteuō (πιστεύω), a Greek New Testament verb commonly translated as "to believe," means far more than intellectual agreement. Its core, active meaning is to trust, rely on, cling to, or have faith in someone or something. It represents a profound, personal commitment and surrender rather than a casual acknowledgment.

So according to this Jesus is not saying to believe in him, but to personally commit and surrender. This is foreign to me and how I read John Chapter 3. To me, in English, it sincerely reads like he is just saying to believe in him.

Hopefully my concern is communicated. Within my faith I don't know how to see John 3 differently. I have a tendency to just trust the English translation. Is it the case that some people are making a bigger deal out of this than it actually is? Like could the author of John simply have meant believing in Jesus and not this more complicated meaning? I don't know how to think about this, because I don't want to go with something that is not the truth.

If your really concerned about understanding pisteuo in Scripture, read and study the Op in the rediscovering pisteuo thread.

I'll keep an eye out on your thread for any questions you may have.

Don't take this questioning your displaying in your heart lightly, I understand it's coming gro God.

 

[Watchman22]

"IN" in the NT means having the HS indwelling (cf. Eph. 1:3-15, Rom. 8:9),
which is indeed what occurs at the moment of repentance/surrender (Rev. 3:20).

Ive been blocked from replying on my salvation is a process or journey thread, but i think you already know that since you seem to reply to me a lot when you know i can't reply back.

I think we agree overall that salvation isn't a one moment belief, and were always saved. But that salvation is a process or journey similiar to what you've discribed in this response.

But, where i disagree, is with your understanding that we recieve the Holy spirit at the moment of repentance and at our first surrendered life.

As i detail in this OP , even receiving the Holy spirit is a process. There is things that must happen, and happen in the right order. And in this process, we are in certain states of being through out the process. Your understanding that we recieve the Holy spirit at a moment of repentance and first surrendered life eliminates all the happenings and states of being in that process. If these things that must happen and happen in the right order are not understood correctly, it creates alternative paths that avail nothing.

For instance, the first surrender. Surrender is only part of the whole fulfillment of Faithing or pisteuo. Without the following up of "living a life inspired by such surrender" , the initial first surrender is a half measure and will avail nothing. Without the "living a life inspired by such surrender" part of faithing or pisteuo, How can God test the faith or surrendered life. Of course we can't put a time frame on this process, it would be different for each called out one.

The other point is the Holy spirits can only be given once. Going through this process gives God the confidence that we will complete the salvation pr

And just to clarify, i do think a called out one can get through the process that leads to the Holy spirit without any knowledge of this process. I'm proof of that. i learned it afterwards. If we stay true to faith and faithing, (conviction to Him, a continual personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender," Gods word and His ways will unveil itself to

 

[homwardbound]

In the English translations of John Chapter 3 Jesus says if you believe in him you are saved.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (KJV)
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (NIV)

From the wording it seems to be that simply believing he exists is enough to be saved: "believing in him". But according to what I have learned the Greek "word" for belief Pisteuō (πιστεύω) means something more than believing. According to this believing is simply used to capture what pisteuō means since there is no English equivalent. This is rather distressing because in English the message Jesus preaches to Nicodemus here is rather simple, if you believe in him you are saved. Apparently though, he means something else, which is not reflected in the English translation.

Here is what Google says regarding Pisteuō

Pisteuō (πιστεύω), a Greek New Testament verb commonly translated as "to believe," means far more than intellectual agreement. Its core, active meaning is to trust, rely on, cling to, or have faith in someone or something. It represents a profound, personal commitment and surrender rather than a casual acknowledgment.

So according to this Jesus is not saying to believe in him, but to personally commit and surrender. This is foreign to me and how I read John Chapter 3. To me, in English, it sincerely reads like he is just saying to believe in him.

Hopefully my concern is communicated. Within my faith I don't know how to see John 3 differently. I have a tendency to just trust the English translation. Is it the case that some people are making a bigger deal out of this than it actually is? Like could the author of John simply have meant believing in Jesus and not this more complicated meaning? I don't know how to think about this, because I don't want to go with something that is not the truth.

Yes, now I have seen this without this post of yours for deeper clarity. Thank you
Believe, receive and be new in God's love for you, given you from God Father in risen Son for us all to respond to in thanksgiving and praise. Then be led without having to think it over at all 2 Cor 10:5-6 Believe, receive and be new by God alone for you in love and mercy to all, from God. see it done for you in son and see John 13:34 do the same

You see, when I go after to know more I get confused, perplexed and angered when I think I am not well or I think I know more than others. By trying to not do wrong. My focus is in the incorrect place. What? Read Romans 6,7,8
Sin takes occasion by the command to not do this and or that. I become aware to not do. then what does one do?
Does one do it right and think he/she is better than others?
If one does not and wants to do it, yet sees can't does one hide as Adam and Eve did? and try to act like they are well?
Then there are those that do not care at all and act as if they do care, and in truth between God and them they know they don't.
Romans 8:15-16

I see God tells me to rest in God for me and all others also Hebrews 4:9-13
I see now the nature of evil's game
To perplex, confuse, disassemble, talk doubt, cause doubt. This causes wars, rumors of wars, it angers others and then emotions control people, in place of God's truth. Then we each become righteous in our own selves and fight between one another over it all, as Evil laughs over this 1 Cor 3
Not well for my Soul. I believe God in risen Son's love us all, otherwise Son would not have gone to that cross at all

Believe, receive and be new in love and mercy to all too, thank you

 

[GWH]

Ive been blocked from replying on my salvation is a process or journey thread, but i think you already know that since you seem to reply to me a lot when you know i can't reply back.

I think we agree overall that salvation isn't a one moment belief, and were always saved. But that salvation is a process or journey similiar to what you've discribed in this response.

But, where i disagree, is with your understanding that we recieve the Holy spirit at the moment of repentance and at our first surrendered life.

As i detail in this OP , even receiving the Holy spirit is a process. There is things that must happen, and happen in the right order. And in this process, we are in certain states of being through out the process. Your understanding that we recieve the Holy spirit at a moment of repentance and first surrendered life eliminates all the happenings and states of being in that process. If these things that must happen and happen in the right order are not understood correctly, it creates alternative paths that avail nothing.

For instance, the first surrender. Surrender is only part of the whole fulfillment of Faithing or pisteuo. Without the following up of "living a life inspired by such surrender" , the initial first surrender is a half measure and will avail nothing. Without the "living a life inspired by such surrender" part of faithing or pisteuo, How can God test the faith or surrendered life. Of course we can't put a time frame on this process, it would be different for each called out one.

The other point is the Holy spirits can only be given once. Going through this process gives God the confidence that we will complete the salvation pr

And just to clarify, i do think a called out one can get through the process that leads to the Holy spirit without any knowledge of this process. I'm proof of that. i learned it afterwards. If we stay true to faith and faithing, (conviction to Him, a continual personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender," Gods word and His ways will unveil itself to

No, I did not realize you cannot reply on that thread. Have you asked the site manager about it? Might be just a glitch.

Regarding receiving the HS, I need to clarify that the relationship with God typically begins when a person becomes a truthseeker, because God’s Spirit is Truth (1John 5:6), and Paul indicates that souls will be able to discern God’s being and moral will in creation and so are without excuse for not satisfying GRFS as revealed via what theologians call general revelation (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-15, Gal. 5:14), because this serves as the proto-gospel. Seeking truth is the primitive beginning of the salvation process per Matt. 7:7 & Heb. 11:6. At that point the person is saved and cooperating with God's indwelling HS without realizing it (Rom. 8:9).

When Abraham sought God and realized that God had a moral requirement, the relationship with God became personal (Rom. 4:1-25). Of course, partial knowledge of God’s Word limits a person’s ability to cooperate with His HS, so there is a need for OT revelation to be complemented by evangelism and learning the full Gospel (Matt. 28:19-20), so souls may choose to accept Jesus as Christ.

When a truthseeker learns the NT Gospel of Christ, repents and confesses Jesus as Lord (Acts 20:21, Rom. 10:9), the indwelling HS fills the convert’s heart (Rom. 5:5, Rev. 3:20), uniting them with God as heavenly Father (Rom. 8:14-16) and identifying them with Christ’s worldwide/catholic body or church (Col. 1:18), which moment is called spiritual rebirth (John 3:3-8) or “baptism by the Spirit” (1Cor. 12:13).

Do you agree with this clarification?

 

[Watchman22]

No, I did not realize you cannot reply on that thread. Have you asked the site manager about it? Might be just a glitch.

Regarding receiving the HS, I need to clarify that the relationship with God typically begins when a person becomes a truthseeker, because God’s Spirit is Truth (1John 5:6), and Paul indicates that souls will be able to discern God’s being and moral will in creation and so are without excuse for not satisfying GRFS as revealed via what theologians call general revelation (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-15, Gal. 5:14), because this serves as the proto-gospel. Seeking truth is the primitive beginning of the salvation process per Matt. 7:7 & Heb. 11:6. At that point the person is saved and cooperating with God's indwelling HS without realizing it (Rom. 8:9).

When Abraham sought God and realized that God had a moral requirement, the relationship with God became personal (Rom. 4:1-25). Of course, partial knowledge of God’s Word limits a person’s ability to cooperate with His HS, so there is a need for OT revelation to be complemented by evangelism and learning the full Gospel (Matt. 28:19-20), so souls may choose to accept Jesus as Christ.

When a truthseeker learns the NT Gospel of Christ, repents and confesses Jesus as Lord (Acts 20:21, Rom. 10:9), the indwelling HS fills the convert’s heart (Rom. 5:5, Rev. 3:20), uniting them with God as heavenly Father (Rom. 8:14-16) and identifying them with Christ’s worldwide/catholic body or church (Col. 1:18), which moment is called spiritual rebirth (John 3:3-8) or “baptism by the Spirit” (1Cor. 12:13).

Do you agree with this clarification?

No because there is no faith included in your understanding. Where is the personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender?

I agree with you that in the beginning there has to be some other mechanism for God to call out the called out ones. But the response has to be faith, a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

And then you go straight to accepting Him as the result of being exposed to the gospel, which wasn't and still isn't available to everyone.

We don't accept Him, He accepts us, or our faith, our faithing, our personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

It's only after the process to receive the Holy spirit (as described in my salvation process post) that we become the truthseeker your talking about, and correctly talking about i might add. Thats a legitimate part of the journey, but only happens after we we receive His Spirit, after that process.

 

[GWH]

No because there is no faith included in your understanding. Where is the personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender?

I agree with you that in the beginning there has to be some other mechanism for God to call out the called out ones. But the response has to be faith, a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

And then you go straight to accepting Him as the result of being exposed to the gospel, which wasn't and still isn't available to everyone.

We don't accept Him, He accepts us, or our faith, our faithing, our personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

It's only after the process to receive the Holy spirit (as described in my salvation process post) that we become the truthseeker your talking about, and correctly talking about i might add. Thats a legitimate part of the journey, but only happens after we we receive His Spirit, after that process.

Oh, another clarification is that the process involves walking by faith every step of the way.

The relationship with God becomes personal when souls realize that God has a moral requirement to which they surrender
(Rom. 4:1-25).

The life inspired by such surrender begins when a sinner learns the Gospel of Christ and confesses Jesus as Lord (Acts 20:21, Rom. 10:9). The HS enters the convert’s heart (Rom. 5:5) and unites them with God as heavenly Father (Rom. 8:9)–which moment is called spiritual rebirth (John 3:3-8), baptism by the Spirit (Matt. 3:11/Mark 1:8/Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, 1Cor. 12:13) and receiving the Spirit of adoption/sonship (Rom. 8:14-16).

I agree that not everyone has the opportunity to learn the Gospel, so they remain dependent on general revelation.

When we seek/surrender/repent/accept or have faith in God as Lord, He accepts/forgives/saves/indwells us as the HS.
As I said, the process begins with seeking ultimate Truth (at which point the Word/HS indwells) and continues with
finding/learning the Gospel of Christ (at which point we become aware of a deeper or more intimate fellowship with God as Abba).

Do you like this clarification better?
I enjoy this discussion that moves forward with clarifications rather than becoming circular ping-pong.

 

[NightTwister]

Another daily iteration of the same question. I trust the hundreds of language scholars who translated several different English versions who came to the same conclusion.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

In the English translations of John Chapter 3 Jesus says if you believe in him you are saved.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (KJV)
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (NIV)

From the wording it seems to be that simply believing he exists is enough to be saved: "believing in him". But according to what I have learned the Greek "word" for belief Pisteuō (πιστεύω) means something more than believing. According to this believing is simply used to capture what pisteuō means since there is no English equivalent. This is rather distressing because in English the message Jesus preaches to Nicodemus here is rather simple, if you believe in him you are saved. Apparently though, he means something else, which is not reflected in the English translation.

Here is what Google says regarding Pisteuō

Pisteuō (πιστεύω), a Greek New Testament verb commonly translated as "to believe," means far more than intellectual agreement. Its core, active meaning is to trust, rely on, cling to, or have faith in someone or something. It represents a profound, personal commitment and surrender rather than a casual acknowledgment.

So according to this Jesus is not saying to believe in him, but to personally commit and surrender. This is foreign to me and how I read John Chapter 3. To me, in English, it sincerely reads like he is just saying to believe in him.

Hopefully my concern is communicated. Within my faith I don't know how to see John 3 differently. I have a tendency to just trust the English translation. Is it the case that some people are making a bigger deal out of this than it actually is? Like could the author of John simply have meant believing in Jesus and not this more complicated meaning? I don't know how to think about this, because I don't want to go with something that is not the truth.

Are you a Greek speaker?
Is Common Greek your native language?
If so, then you have more qualifications than anyone on this forum. Guess what Goober does? It takes a general consensus of biased information in the English speakers as well as a dictionary synonym /entry and spits out an answer. It has no Holy Spirit living in it, nor do many of those it gathers data from.
If popular entries in it's algorithm support a WORKS BASED salvation, it will reflect that.
So, if you want the typical list American pastor's opinion that would struggle to order a glass of water on a Greek menu, then by all means, let your faith in Christ be rattled by a Google definition or some entry/synonym in a dictionary.

I'm being direct because I don't have the time to get into endless debates with those newbies who have posted on the word pistis, pisteuo, etc on this forum prior to your thread.
There's been a few new false prophets that have tried VERY hard and invested a lot of their time to lead us astray since they joined this year. You will either please them for a job well done OR you can take the effort to do the following and prove what it means for yourself.
Getting to know you from your posts over time, I think you are a truth seeker and you aren't going to get rebuked by Galatians chapter 1. If that's the case, I suggest the following.

A. Get a paper KJ Bible if you don't have one. Don't rely on an online search. Don't go with an ESV, NIV or even a NKJV. They are different and go against the traditional Majority Text. They will come up short.

B. Start with the gospel of John chapter 1. Underline every time the word Believe(s, th, ed, ing) is written in the chapter. Keep going until you get to the last chapter, all the time studying the context and usage.

C. Plead to the Lord with tears for understanding before reading each chapter.

D. When you are done, count the sum of each chapter and write the number in the blank space in the heading. Then add all of those up. Let me know what you get for your answer.

This simple technique might take more effort than reading a bunch of stranger's opinions and Google searches, but I think you want God's answer instead.

There's no more important topic in life than where we go when we die. The time you spend seeking and pleading with the Father for the correct answer will be well worth it.

Prayerfully yours,

Health and Happiness

 

[Watchman22]

Oh, another clarification is that the process involves walking by faith every step of the way.

The relationship with God becomes personal when souls realize that God has a moral requirement to which they surrender
(Rom. 4:1-25).

The life inspired by such surrender begins when a sinner learns the Gospel of Christ and confesses Jesus as Lord (Acts 20:21, Rom. 10:9). The HS enters the convert’s heart (Rom. 5:5) and unites them with God as heavenly Father (Rom. 8:9)–which moment is called spiritual rebirth (John 3:3-8), baptism by the Spirit (Matt. 3:11/Mark 1:8/Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, 1Cor. 12:13) and receiving the Spirit of adoption/sonship (Rom. 8:14-16).

I agree that not everyone has the opportunity to learn the Gospel, so they remain dependent on general revelation.

When we seek/surrender/repent/accept or have faith in God as Lord, He accepts/forgives/saves/indwells us as the HS.
As I said, the process begins with seeking ultimate Truth (at which point the Word/HS indwells) and continues with
finding/learning the Gospel of Christ (at which point we become aware of a deeper or more intimate fellowship with God as Abba).

Do you like this clarification better?
I enjoy this discussion that moves forward with clarifications rather than becoming circular ping-pong.

Did the site go down today? i thought i finally got banned.

Ok GWH, maybe were taking off to big of a bite all at once.

Can we start from the beginning, and go through this one step at a time?
If so, are we good with the Vines definition of pisteuo being, 1) a personal surrender to Him and 2) a life inspired by such surrender?

If your good, lets start at the calling of the Father. Nobody comes to Christ unless the Father draws or calls them.

So lets call this step 1
1)The Father calls out a small group, out from among a larger group of ones that are not called.. Nobody comes to Christ unless the Father draws or calls them. Rom. 1:7, Jn.6:44, Jn. 3:16.

Are we good on this first step?

 

[LeeLoving]

Are you a Greek speaker?
Is Common Greek your native language?
If so, then you have more qualifications than anyone on this forum. Guess what Goober does? It takes a general consensus of biased information in the English speakers as well as a dictionary synonym /entry and spits out an answer. It has no Holy Spirit living in it, nor do many of those it gathers data from.
If popular entries in it's algorithm support a WORKS BASED salvation, it will reflect that.
So, if you want the typical list American pastor's opinion that would struggle to order a glass of water on a Greek menu, then by all means, let your faith in Christ be rattled by a Google definition or some entry/synonym in a dictionary.

I'm being direct because I don't have the time to get into endless debates with those newbies who have posted on the word pistis, pisteuo, etc on this forum prior to your thread.
There's been a few new false prophets that have tried VERY hard and invested a lot of their time to lead us astray since they joined this year. You will either please them for a job well done OR you can take the effort to do the following and prove what it means for yourself.
Getting to know you from your posts over time, I think you are a truth seeker and you aren't going to get rebuked by Galatians chapter 1. If that's the case, I suggest the following.

A. Get a paper KJ Bible if you don't have one. Don't rely on an online search. Don't go with an ESV, NIV or even a NKJV. They are different and go against the traditional Majority Text. They will come up short.

B. Start with the gospel of John chapter 1. Underline every time the word Believe(s, th, ed, ing) is written in the chapter. Keep going until you get to the last chapter, all the time studying the context and usage.

C. Plead to the Lord with tears for understanding before reading each chapter.

D. When you are done, count the sum of each chapter and write the number in the blank space in the heading. Then add all of those up. Let me know what you get for your answer.

This simple technique might take more effort than reading a bunch of stranger's opinions and Google searches, but I think you want God's answer instead.

There's no more important topic in life than where we go when we die. The time you spend seeking and pleading with the Father for the correct answer will be well worth it.

Prayerfully yours,

Health and Happiness

I did something very similar to this. I looked on blueletterbible to see the other usages of the word outside of John 3, in total I think there are 244 occurrences. Every time I looked the context seemed to determine the meaning as simply believe, so I don't understand how something more complicated is meant. I have been told so many times though that pisteuó means something more than believe, such as with John 3:14-18, that it is baffling to me that I can't just trust the English translation. This more complicated meaning is not reflected in the translation, so if it's true that the author of John is trying to get across something deeper than believe with pisteuó then I have nowhere to go because I don't speak Greek. I don't even know if the claim is true in this case.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

I did something very similar to this. I looked on blueletterbible to see the other usages of the word outside of John 3, in total I think there are 244 occurrences. Every time I looked the context seemed to determine the meaning as simply believe, so I don't understand how something more complicated is meant. I have been told so many times though that pisteuó means something more than believe, such as with John 3:14-18, that it is baffling to me that I can't just trust the English translation. This more complicated meaning is not reflected in the translation, so if it's true that the author of John is trying to get across something deeper than believe with pisteuó then I have nowhere to go because I don't speak Greek. I don't even know if the claim is true.

The problem isn't with the translation. The problem is with the dictionary entry and with those who pose as experts in the Greek language posting this topic that we both read.
They are literally attacking God's Word to cast shade on salvation by God's grace through faith in His only Begotten Son.

Read Galatians chapter 1 and 3.
This has been an attack from the time Christ rebuked the Pharisees and Paul rebuked the churches he established. He warned them over and over again about people who mislead the churches into thinking that their salvation is dependent upon their works.

Get a paper Bible and you'll get real answers from the Holy Spirit.
It's no coincidence that my devotions including reading from cover to cover just happened to fall on John 3 today.

Simply read John 3:10 KJV through John 3:12 KJV.
Jesus reproves and rebukes Nicodemus for not getting this simple doctrine.
Then He says, "If I have told you earthly things and ye (personally commit and surrender) not, how shall ye (personally commit and surrender) if I tell you of heavenly things?
Does that make ANY sense?
No, if course not.
You don't have to speak over a dozen languages including Greek like your native tongue, as the King James Bible aka Traditional Text translators actually did, in order to understand the Bible.
You need the Holy Spirit.

Now use the correct quote.
"If I have told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you of heavenly things?"
Doesn't this actually make sense now?

You need to put away the Internet and the fake preachers opinions that Paul would pick up and throw head first out of his church. Get a paper Bible and take this task to the Lord. It's an easy one that should build your faith.

If you need help there, here's a good short message on the topic.
The Lord wants to share His wonderful with you friend.

>Blessings<

 

[GWH]

Did the site go down today? i thought i finally got banned.

Ok GWH, maybe were taking off to big of a bite all at once.

Can we start from the beginning, and go through this one step at a time?
If so, are we good with the Vines definition of pisteuo being, 1) a personal surrender to Him and 2) a life inspired by such surrender?

If your good, lets start at the calling of the Father. Nobody comes to Christ unless the Father draws or calls them.

So lets call this step 1
1)The Father calls out a small group, out from among a larger group of ones that are not called.. Nobody comes to Christ unless the Father draws or calls them. Rom. 1:7, Jn.6:44, Jn. 3:16.

Are we good on this first step?

Okay, starting over and taking one step at at time:

Rom. 1:7 - God calls (Rom. 1:7)/draws (John 6:44)/enables (John 6:65) everyone (John 12:32) to come to Christ (1Tim. 2:3-4),
both Jew and Gentile (Rom. 1:16) and be saved (John 3:16).

I am good with faith meaning surrender of life to Jesus as Messiah and Lord (Acts 16:31, Eph. 2:8-9, Rom. 3:22, 5:1, etc.)

Step 2?