J
Faith or Law?
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Right that’s the old covenant between God and Israel mediated by Moses for thier land inheritance which was delivered to them.
“Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Behold, I ( Moses ) have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.”
Deuteronomy 4:1-2, 5, 13-14 KJV
“What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.”
Deuteronomy 12:32 KJV
“These are the statutes and judgments, which ye shall observe to do in the land, which the LORD God of thy fathers giveth thee to possess it, all the days that ye live upon the earth.”
Deuteronomy 12:1 KJV
And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, ( Moses is speaking ) even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders; and ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth. Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die. Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.
And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.”
Deuteronomy 5:1-2, 22-25, 27-28 KJV
“but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren.”
James 1:14-16 KJV
I never stated that Paul used these categories.
They are MAN-MADE by scholars to distinguish between the Laws - for whatever reason they find necessary.
Paul does not enter into this discussion.
It is one thing to claim that Christian scholars agree on everything already and quote another thing to demonstrate that to be true. If you think that Christian scholars agree on everything, then you clearly have no idea no understanding of Christian scholarship.[/QUOTE]
I do believe you've misunderstood my post.
Yes sir...
you're attempting to change what the Christian RELIGION teaches by denying what it teaches with the OPPOSITE of its doctrine.
YOU are trying to teach that Christians are to follow the Law of Moses.
The Christian religion teaches that the Law of Moses is dead.
See? It's the opposite of what Christianity teaches.
Of course my reply answers your question.
You just do not agree with it because you do not accept what Christianity teaches.
I'll be you've been asked this before......
DO YOU EAT PORK?
DO YOU SACRIFICE ANIMALS TO YOUR GOD?
STONED ANYBODY LATELY?
KEEP ALL THE JEWISH FESITVALS? INCLUDING THE SABBATH?
So much more...
you get the idea.
Hi Pilgrimshope
I'm afraid you're going to have to tell me, in your own words, what the above means and why you posted it.
If you want to.
Thanks.
James came to mind when I was writing to the other member but didn't have enough time to look it up.
Yes, lust bring forth sin.
Any type of lust.
In modern parlance it has come to be understood as only one type...
but biblically it could mean any lust.
J
James456
Guest
I would tend to go more by the dictionaries than by a catholic document. They may have reasons for explaining it as they do
J
James456
Guest
And how would the human mind react to a belief, if the above was committed in the mind it could send a person to hell?
That's good, one of the main point that I've been trying to make is that we should not interpret the authors of the Bible as referring to categories that we have created. For example, a scholar who created a category of 137 laws has no grounds for interpreting people who never used that category as referring to it as being abolished.
If Christ taught the opposite of what Christianity teaches, then should we follow Christ or Christianity?
I do not eat pork, there is no Temple, there is no Sanhedrin, and I do keep all of God's festivals, including the Sabbath.
You trust a dictionary...which will give a secular meaning....
more than the religion that INVENTED the term?
OK.
J
James456
Guest
Quick poll to anyone in this thread.
It is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so which position gives Gentiles a license to sin?:
1.) The Jerusalem Council required to Gentiles to refrain from doing what the Law of Moses reveals to be sin.
2.) The Jerusalem Council permitted Gentile to do what the Law of Moses reveals to be sin,
It is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so which position gives Gentiles a license to sin?:
1.) The Jerusalem Council required to Gentiles to refrain from doing what the Law of Moses reveals to be sin.
2.) The Jerusalem Council permitted Gentile to do what the Law of Moses reveals to be sin,
And herewth is the problem at hand.
THERE IS NO TEMPLE.
Yes sir.
THIS is the reason why the Mosaic Law CANNOT be kept.
And there is no Sanhedrin.
WHO is enforcing the law these days?
Your Rabbi'?
See S, it's IMPOSSIBLE to keep the Mosaic Law...
even if we wanted to.
And HOW could Christ teach something different than what Christianity teaches?
And why make such an odd statement?
Sounds like you hate the people who gave you the religion you're practicing today!
Odd.
J
James456
Guest
Well if the entire law of moses gives us knowledge of what sin is, I could not be in a saved state. For God writes His laws in our minds and places them on our hearts at conversion. And Through the law we become conscious of sin, as you quoted
I have no consciousness of sin at all of eating bacon or pork.
J
James456
Guest
Not at all, but they may be uncomfortable with what was being stated in the verse, so they are slanted in their view concerning interpretation
Ive lived in a predominantly catholic community, nice people
J
James456
Guest
The reason hes put that up is, I explained to him, if his views are correct, the leaders of the first century church, at the council of Jerusalem must have given gentiles a licence to sin as they only asked gentiles to follow four mosaic laws. He disputes that is true
It's an interesting concept.
But if D. Engelbart invented the MOUSE back in the 60's...
he most certainly will know about the mouse.
If someone TODAY wants to change the meaning...I'll trust Engelbart.
Seems reasonable to me..but whatever - this is not something to debate.
When wanting to know what Catholics teach...and they DID coin the word...
I'd go here:
From the explanation given, it is plain that the opposition between appetite and reason is natural in man, and that, though it be an imperfection, it is not a corruption of human nature.
Nor have the inordinate desires (actual concupiscence) or the proneness to them (habitual concupiscence) the nature of sin; for sin, being the free and deliberate transgression of the law of God, can be only in the rational will; though it be true that they are temptations to sin, becoming the stronger and the more frequent the oftener they have been indulged.
As thus far considered they are only sinful objects and antecedent causes of sinful transgressions; they contract the malice of sin only when consent is given by the will; not as though their nature were changed, but because they are adopted and completed by the will and so share its malice. Hence the distinction of concupiscence antecedent and concupiscence consequent to the consent of the will; the latter is sinful, the former is not.
The first parents were free from concupiscence, so that their sensuous appetite was perfectly subject to reason; and this freedom they were to transmit to posterity provided they observed the commandment of God. A short but important statement of the Catholic doctrine on this point may be quoted from Peter the Deacon, a Greek, who was sent to Rome to bear witness to the Faith of the East: "Our belief is that Adam came from the hands of his Creator good and free from the assaults of the flesh" (Lib. de Incarn., c. vi). In our first parents, however, this complete dominion of reason over appetite was no natural perfection or acquirement, but a preternatural gift of God, that is, a gift not due to human nature; nor was it, on the other hand, the essence of their original justice, which consisted in sanctifying grace; it was but a complement added to the latter by the Divine bounty.
By the sin of Adam freedom from concupiscence was forfeited not only for himself, but also for all his posterity with the exception of the Blessed Virgin by special privilege. Human nature was deprived of both its preternatural and supernatural gifts and graces, the lower appetite began to lust against the spirit, and evil habits, contracted by personal sins, wrought disorder in the body, obscured the mind, and weakened the power of the will, without, however, destroying its freedom. Hence that lamentable condition of which St. Paul complains when he writes:
I find then a law, that when I have a will to do good, evil is present with me. For I am delighted with the law of God, according to the inward man: but I see another law in my members, fighting against the law of my mind, and captivating me in the law of sin, that is in my members. Unhappy man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Romans 7:21-25)
source: https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04208a.htm