Loss of salvation???

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I do not agree with what you say.
It is possible to have both belief and faith and yet not be saved. Some believe that there is a God and shudder just as the demons do!
Faith which results in works that are pleasing to God only comes from being renewed by the Holy Spirit and given to Christ. Then works follow as a fruit of the work that He has done in us [giving us a new heart.

BB
When we discuss biblical BELIEF, we are speaking about SALVIFIC BELIEF.
A person cannot stop each time the word is used in order to explain it.

Ditto for the word FAITH.

We don't discuss here whether or not we have faith that the elevator will take us to the top floors...
we're discussing FAITH IN GOD.

So, belief and faith are necessasry for salvation.
In the NT BELIEF and FAITH refer to salvific words.

John tells us in 3:16 that whoever BELIEVES in the Son will be saved.

NOT a mental belief as the demons had...
a salvific belief.
John 3:16 is about HOW to be SAVED.


And, yes, I agree, when we are saved....we will be renewed, or, at least, we should:


Romans 12:2
2 And do not be conformed to this [c]world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may [d]prove what the will of God is, that which is good and [e]acceptable and perfect.







John 2:18-26
18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.


You're actually quoting James above...so I don't understand the point.
James states that faith without works is a dead faith.




I see no scripture that says that Christ will lose any man given to Him by the Father. In fact, He tells us [none will be lost, all will be raised up on the last day].
Those in Christ will from time to time sin and stray from Christ, just as sheep are prone to do, but they will not remain that way. We have an excellent shepherd who will return us to the flock
Hebrews 6:4-6 is simply a warning to unregenerate professors – people part of the visible church but never truly born again. In other words, [examine yourself].
You have not replied to my post.

I posted scripture.

Please explain WHY you don't agree with what Peter taught.
You're not disagreeing with ME,,,you're disagreeing with Peter.

THEN we could move on to YOUR verse...Hebrews 6:4-6


Here is what I had posted again: post no. 5959

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Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away,



Note:

1. Some have been enlightened.
They have TASTED of the heavenly gift (what is it?)
They have been made PARTAKERS of the Holy Spirit.

2. And THEN they have fallen away....
 
In four out of five instances tongues are mentioned but not in the other one. And I repeat, Paul said:
''Do all speak in tongues?'' NOT ''Do all interpret tongues?''
Again, what Paul is referring to is not all will operate in the Spiritual gift of tongues. Manifestation of tongues differ. (1 Cor. 12, 13, 14)

The accounts in Acts 2, 10, and 19 establish that speaking in tongues is the evidence that accompanies the infilling of the Holy Ghost. As such, the experience didn't have to be recorded in Acts 8 in order to be confident that the people spoke in tongues when they received the Holy Ghost. God's Word reveals that the truth concerning this topic, as well as any other, is established by 2-3 witnesses; meaning what is recorded in 2-3 about a subject is what's true.

"Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established." Deut. 19:15
"...take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." Matt. 18:16
"In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." 2 Cor. 13:1
 
Again, what Paul is referring to is not all will operate in the Spiritual gift of tongues. Manifestation of tongues differ. (1 Cor. 12, 13, 14)

The accounts in Acts 2, 10, and 19 establish that speaking in tongues is the evidence that accompanies the infilling of the Holy Ghost. As such, the experience didn't have to be recorded in Acts 8 in order to be confident that the people spoke in tongues when they received the Holy Ghost. God's Word reveals the truth concerning this topic, as well as any other, is established by 2-3 witnesses. Meaning what is recorded in 2-3 scriptural accounts.

"Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established." Deut. 19:15
"...take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." Matt. 18:16
"In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." 2 Cor. 13:1
I was in a saved state before I spoke in tongues.
And once again, the words Paul used were:
''Do all speak in tongues''
NOT, do all prophecy in tongues
Not
Do all interpret tongues, simply
Do all speak in tongues. If you had to speak in tongues to be in a saved state, the bible would plainly lay that out. Salvific belief is always plainly spelt out.
I was raised pentecostal, I know their views on this subject quite well
 
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Did you continue to read to see that I don’t believe the same as the OSAS group that I believe you’re speaking of? Do I believed one can fall away? Yes which is why I gave examples. There are two perspectives to being saved. There is being saved in the moment. And there is being saved into eternal life. One is present and one is future. We can only see one of those through our eyes. God can see both. I know I’m once saved. God knows whether I’m always saved. We can’t lose our salvation and no one can take it but we can forfeit it. We are on the winning team and the only way to lose is to quit before the game is over.

Ephsians 1:13-14
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The idea of relinquishment is contradictory to this and the permanence of the earnest and the seal. Do you know of a verse whereby one relinquishes that sealing of Holy Spirit? How is that possible without inventing something that's nowhere stated in scripture?

Just curious...

MM
 
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They had already received the Holy Spirit but NOT the filling of the Spirit! or to you, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, they were already believers, so they were in saved states, you cannot be in a saved state unless the Spirit dwells in you(Rom8:9)
The account clarifies when the individuals received the Holy Ghost. It was days after they believed in Jesus and were water baptized in His name.

"But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles[a] performed, he was amazed.
Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money," Acts 8:12-18
 
The account clarifies when the individuals received the Holy Ghost. It was days after they believed in Jesus and were water baptized in His name.

"But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles[a] performed, he was amazed.
Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money," Acts 8:12-18

But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. Acts8:12&13



When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, verse15

So in your view, the Samarians believed the message Phillip preached to them, they got baptised, and were considered new believers, but though that is true, Phillip left them in unsaved states until Peter and John arrived and prayed for them?
If you are correct, let us hope none of them died before Peter and John arrived and prayed for them
 
The same message along with its requirements given by Peter was not limited to Jews; "For the promise is unto... as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39)

Do you see what you're doing here? What Christ accomplished is indeed that which spans all of time, but the doorways (dispensations) to that accomplished work are not all the same.

Peter preached this [the statements in brackets are my comments]:

Acts 2:37-38
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Paul, however, preached this:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you[Not a summary, but that which he preached as THE gospel to Gentiles], which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved [This is an absolute statement, not something anything can be added to from any other narrative for salvation.], if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

These statements were not made days or even a year apart from each other, but rather YEARS apart, with much happening in between.

Notice that Paul did not repeat the Kingdom Gospel preached by the twelve, but ONLY faith in the death, burial and resurrection on the third day, no water baptism for remission of sins, just grace through faith.

So, the question remains unanswered...why claim similarity when one can clearly see such a claim is false?

Was Paul guilty of the sin of omission? If so, then that guilt ties right back into God Himself if Paul was right about ALL of scripture being inspired by God. Are we now in good standing as accusers of God who is not guilty of any falsehood? Is it not more likely that PEOPLE are wrong when seeing the dichotomy between their claims and what's actually written? Are not those individuals wrong who claim what is contrary to what's written? Where did Paul ever claim that water baptism did anything in relation to sins being remitted through getting wet through dunking in water?

Some even go WAY too far by claiming that Peter was talking about "spiritual" baptism, which is not at all consistent with the words spoken. Nobody can go and BE spiritually baptized as an act in and of itself, which was given that under the Kingdom Gospel through the laying on of hands as that spiritual baptism through which THEY received Holy Spirit. Under the Gospel of Grace, salvation is instantaneous as is spiritual baptism and filling of Holy Spirit. Paul stated no command for anyone to go and BE baptized. He didn't need to command such.

Then the nay-sayers point at those who were under the Kingdom Gospel questioned by Paul as to if THEY had received Holy Spirit and yet stated that they had never even heard if there be such a One as Holy Spirit. They were under the Kingdom Gospel, which did indeed require water baptism and laying on of hands for receiving Holy Spirit.

This almost always causes brain farts in the minds of those fully indoctrinated into the Westernized system of pure religion as a mixture of human traditions from people's who did not originate from the biblical foundations of Eastern Judaism.

So, granted, many will still continue to parrot that imaginary similarity regardless of the textual distinctions, believing whatsoever they WANT to believe, giving greater weight to the false teachings of their pastors, parents, friends, et al. The text is so clear, which puts this all far outside the realm of personality and dogma.

Hope this helps to get some thinking more deeply about the paradigms of typical, Western thinking and pride.

MM
 
Ephsians 1:13-14
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The idea of relinquishment is contradictory to this and the permanence of the earnest and the seal. Do you know of a verse whereby one relinquishes that sealing of Holy Spirit? How is that possible without inventing something that's nowhere stated in scripture?

Just curious...

MM
Do you believe God will force you to spend eternity with Him if you desire not to? A seal can be broken. Was not the seal of His tomb broken when the stone was rolled away?
 
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If you had to speak in tongues to be in a saved state, the bible would plainly lay that out. Salvific belief is always plainly spelt out.
Exactly! Adding "must speak in tongues" in order to be saved to the gospel is perverting the gospel. Now genuinely speaking in tongues is a spiritual gift but I believe there are also deceptions. Non authentic speaking in tongues experiences characterized by manufactured or ecstatic babbling rather than a genuine, unknown language does happen and has been termed glossolalia by psychologists and critics. The devil can certainly use this to deceive folks!

It is often labeled as a learned behavior, fraudulent, or a result of self-deception by those who are hyper suggestive. I've had numerous discussions with certain pentecostals (including my brother and his wife) who have witnessed it first hand. The main reason why my brother and his wife left the pentecostal church that they previously attended was because certain folks who spoke in tongues (or shall we say babbled) acted as if they were spiritually superior to those who did not speak in tongues.
 
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The main reason why my brother and his wife left the pentecostal church that they previously attended was because certain folks who spoke in tongues (or shall we say babbled) acted as if they were spiritually superior to those who did not speak in tongues.
The above is true in my experience. In the town I grew up in the various denominations decided to come together at times for a show of unity. The pentecostal church I was raised in said:
''They know where we are''
The impression was given, they were the only true church in the town, and therefore superior to others.
 
Paul only stated ''Do all speak in tongues'' Not: Do all speak a message in tongues!!
I can assure you I was in a saved state before I spoke in tongues, but how well do you know the covenant believers are under?
Paul's letter reveals that the Spiritual GIFT of tongues is the means by which God's message is presented to those within the church body. (1 Cor. 12, 14)
 
Paul's letter reveals that the Spiritual GIFT of tongues is the means by which God's message is presented to those within the church body. (1 Cor. 12, 14)
Strange, as I told you, I was raised Pentecostal. The Holy Spirit and tongues were constsntly emphasised, also that we must accept everything written in the bible, nothing can be left out. The church also prided itself it stood full square on the message
Years later, when I had left the church, someone asked me to read a book, in it was a chapter on Paul's message of grace. I was literally stunned by what I read. I could have no righteousness of obeying the law, I could not be good enough for God. You see, I had heard none of that preached in the pentecostal church of my youth. Only the emphasis on the Holy Spirit and tongues, and how well we must live our lives.
 
I was in a saved state before I spoke in tongues.
And once again, the words Paul used were:
''Do all speak in tongues''
NOT, do all prophecy in tongues
Not
Do all interpret tongues, simply
Do all speak in tongues. If you had to speak in tongues to be in a saved state, the bible would plainly lay that out. Salvific belief is always plainly spelt out.
I was raised pentecostal, I know their views on this subject quite well

Paul is speaking in a church setting when he says that, look at what he really thinks about receiving the Holy Ghost when not in a church setting, Acts 19.

Acts 2, JESUS filled them,

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Peter says,
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

After receiving the promise of the Holy Ghost this is what you see and hear.
 
Exactly! Adding "must speak in tongues" in order to be saved to the gospel is perverting the gospel. Now genuinely speaking in tongues is a spiritual gift but I believe there are also deceptions. Non authentic speaking in tongues experiences characterized by manufactured or ecstatic babbling rather than a genuine, unknown language does happen and has been termed glossolalia by psychologists and critics. The devil can certainly use this to deceive folks!

It is often labeled as a learned behavior, fraudulent, or a result of self-deception by those who are hyper suggestive. I've had numerous discussions with certain pentecostals (including my brother and his wife) who have witnessed it first hand. The main reason why my brother and his wife left the pentecostal church that they previously attended was because certain folks who spoke in tongues (or shall we say babbled) acted as if they were spiritually superior to those who did not speak in tongues.

Acts 2, JESUS filled them,

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Peter says,
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

After receiving the promise of the Holy Ghost this is what you see and hear.
 
I got saved young, I then had consciousness of sin before God in a very real way, that is only possible if you are in a saved state.
Scripture reveals all have a consciousness of sin even before the NT rebirth. Paul explained this in his letter to the Romans: " For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them Rom. 2:14-15
 
According to scripture and my beliefs? No. According to ouch, if you don’t speak in tongues you don’t have the Spirit. We all have whatever He sees fit for us to have. I focus more on the gift Giver instead of the gifts.

Acts 2, JESUS filled them,

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Peter says,
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

After receiving the promise of the Holy Ghost this is what you see and hear.
 
Acts 2, JESUS filled them,

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Peter says,
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

After receiving the promise of the Holy Ghost this is what you see and hear.
Where does it say that Jesus filled them? The Father promises the Spirit. Jesus pours out the Spirit, The Holy Spirit fills them. Scripture never says that Jesus filled them with the Holy Spirit.
 
Acts 2, JESUS filled them,

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Peter says,
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

After receiving the promise of the Holy Ghost this is what you see and hear.
Also while you’re in scripture show me where it says ALL believers will have the gift of tongues or any other gift.
 
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It's strange how you quote these verses but miss that Paul expected people to be filled with the Spirit upon believing the Gospel. The other thing that seems to get missed, in all the cases where tongues are mentioned specifically, unbelieving Jews are present.

Acts 19:2
and asked them, ‘Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?’ They answered, ‘No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.’

1 Corinthians 14:22
Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers.

Paul quotes Isaiah to come to this conclusion. "This people" being unbelieving Israel.

Isaiah 28:11
Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people,
The question, Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed? The question actually proves Paul did not believe a person automatically receives the Holy Ghost when they first believe. The account then confirms the truth as well. The men did not receive the Holy Ghost the moment they believed.

Paul's own experience confirms the truth. God sent Ananias to assist Paul in receiving the Holy Ghost days AFTER his encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus. (Acts 9)
 
Acts 2, JESUS filled them,

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Peter says,
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

After receiving the promise of the Holy Ghost this is what you see and hear.
That was a genuine, unique experience that took place in Acts 2 yet not all speak in tongues. (1 Corinthians 12:27-31)