When exactly were the 12 apostles saved? Were they already saved when Jesus chose them? Can we say that Judas is a fake Christian but why did Jesus give him authority to cast out demons and to preach? Judas went to betray Jesus. In this case, isn't it proof that one can lose one's salvation?
12 Apostles
- Thread starter rmcgu
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Great question!
The Apostles were saved after Jesus’ resurrection when He appeared to them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit” and breathed on them and then opened their understanding of the scriptures and taught them from Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.
Reference Luke 24 and John 20
When Jesus sent the disciples out, He told them to preach the Kingdom of God, NOT salvation. They were to cast out demons, heal the sick, etc. They were not preaching salvation.
The disciples thought Jesus was going to establish and restore the Kingdom of David in Jerusalem and kick out the Romans… they did not understand the gift of Salvation yet.
No, Judas is NOT proof that one can lose their salvation because Judas never received the Gift of Salvation because Salvation wasn’t given until after Jesus’ resurrection.
Even Peter denied Jesus 3 times yet, Peter received the Gift of Salvation AFTER Jesus’ resurrection.
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The Lord knows who is saved and who isn’t. Whoever the Father puts in Jesus Christ’s Hand is saved and can NEVER be plucked out of His Hand.
The Apostles were saved after Jesus’ resurrection when He appeared to them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit” and breathed on them and then opened their understanding of the scriptures and taught them from Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.
Reference Luke 24 and John 20
When Jesus sent the disciples out, He told them to preach the Kingdom of God, NOT salvation. They were to cast out demons, heal the sick, etc. They were not preaching salvation.
The disciples thought Jesus was going to establish and restore the Kingdom of David in Jerusalem and kick out the Romans… they did not understand the gift of Salvation yet.
No, Judas is NOT proof that one can lose their salvation because Judas never received the Gift of Salvation because Salvation wasn’t given until after Jesus’ resurrection.
Even Peter denied Jesus 3 times yet, Peter received the Gift of Salvation AFTER Jesus’ resurrection.
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The Lord knows who is saved and who isn’t. Whoever the Father puts in Jesus Christ’s Hand is saved and can NEVER be plucked out of His Hand.
Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
John the Baptist had the Spirit from the Womb.
But not to save him but to give him power to life a holy lifestyle and prepare the way for Jesus.
Because of that he was the greatest person born of a woman that has a human father.
But he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than him.
Because John was not saved yet.
His position on earth was not in a saved position yet because Christ did not shed His blood yet.
Judas Iscariot was not in a saved position yet.
The Bible says many are called but few are chosen.
And Judas was one of them that was not chosen.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
God knew the heart of Pharoah of his stubbornness and hardness of his heart and used him to show His power on earth so people would follow Him.
Maybe Judas was never a candidate for salvation God knowing his heart but was chosen to betray Jesus so He would go to the cross giving salvation.
Mat 26:14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,
Mat 26:15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.
Mat 26:16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.
Mat 26:48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.
Mat 26:49 And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.
Mat 26:50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.
Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
Mat 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
But Jesus still had an impact on Judas which he showed when he gave back the money.
Which it seems like he wanted to reverse the decision but it was too late.
From Gods point of view, the Apostles were saved before they were born, that's if you believe that God is omnipresent. If He is, then He can see everything, from the beginning of time to the end of time, in the present tense.
From our human point of view, we would say they were saved during Christ's earthy ministry.
We can say that "Judas was a fake Christian", because the Lord Jesus exposed him as a devil. Judas was seemingly predestined to betray the Lord Jesus.
I can't get my mind around how things work in Gods economy. Romans 8:28 states: "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose".
According to this verse, the evil deeds of sinners such as Judas Iscariot, work together for good to those who love God.
In Genesis 50:20 Joseph tells his brothers, "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive".
This verse highlights God’s sovereignty in turning malicious intentions into positive, life-saving outcomes. Someone had to betray Christ, in order to fulfill the prophecies.
The thief on the cross received salvation prior to Jesus' resurrection. All the people in Hebrews 11 did too.
No. Judas was a disciple under the Old Testament, as were the others. They all deserted Jesus. Peter denied Him three times. Does that mean that Peter and the other apostles lost their salvation and got it back again? If so, how many times can you be saved and then lost?
The power to cast out demons or preach is not proof of salvation. Jesus said that we will be known by our fruit, including loving the brethren.
J
James456
Guest
Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” John6:70
Would Jesus have believed, a devil was secure with God?
Or did he pick Judas so the scriptural prophecies would be fulfilled?
Zechariah and Elizabeth were saved in Luke 1:6 (cf. Luke 1:41 & 67).
Joseph was saved in Matt. 1:19.
Mary was saved in Luke 1:28.
John the Baptist was saved before Matt. 3:1 & John 1:19.
Simon Peter and Andrew were saved in Matt. 4:20, Luke 5:8-11 & John 1:40-42.
James and John were saved in Matt. 4:22 & Luke 5:8-11.
Philip was saved in John 1:43.
Nathanael was saved in John 1:49.
The centurion was saved in Matt. 8:8.
The paralytic was saved in Mark 2:5.
Levi was saved in Mark 2:14 & Luke 5:27-28.
Some Samaritans were saved in John 4:39-42.
Not sure about the others.
Joseph was saved in Matt. 1:19.
Mary was saved in Luke 1:28.
John the Baptist was saved before Matt. 3:1 & John 1:19.
Simon Peter and Andrew were saved in Matt. 4:20, Luke 5:8-11 & John 1:40-42.
James and John were saved in Matt. 4:22 & Luke 5:8-11.
Philip was saved in John 1:43.
Nathanael was saved in John 1:49.
The centurion was saved in Matt. 8:8.
The paralytic was saved in Mark 2:5.
Levi was saved in Mark 2:14 & Luke 5:27-28.
Some Samaritans were saved in John 4:39-42.
Not sure about the others.
Jesus came to earth in flesh and blood to reconcile us all first. That got done by evil not fathoming what was going to that cross meant. Judas, someone had to betray Son to get him to go to that cross as got done. Prediction filled Matthew 5:17
Through that cross, in the resurrection is where new life in Father's Spirit and truth is: whether Judas is saved or not by God, does not matter, does it, I think God saved Judas? You related this to you can lose your salvation so you better go and do right or else., you out are under Law to get in. of your flesh. God and Son are One, Won for you and all others as well, 1 John 2:1-27. John 19:30, John 1:29, Matthew 5:17. God for you even from God to you through Son for you, reconciled everyone as forgiven first. 2 Cor 5:16-20,A God made by Son for us all as if no one ever sinned, thanks to the down work of Son dying in our place.
Col 1:21-23
Now you are left with the choice to choose to believe God for you and ask to learn new from God living in you. seeing to trust God's love and mercy to all to respond to live new through you to all and not do it yourself as religions do anymore
Judas went to betray Jesus. In this case, isn't it proof that one can lose one's salvation?
Salvation for those of Israel under the kingdom gospel required perseverance to the end.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Christians saved under the grace gospel are saved already
Col_1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Salvation for those of Israel under the kingdom gospel required perseverance to the end.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Christians saved under the grace gospel are saved already
Col_1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
I understand what you’re trying to say but, the thief on the cross spoke of the Kingdom, not salvation.
The thief was asking Jesus for mercy when Jesus Christ was to come into His Kingdom, the Kingdom of God in Heaven.
Jesus told the thief he would be with Him in Paradise that day…. because after Jesus died, He would be going to all the spirits in prison to preach the gospel to them… and Jesus would be bringing their souls out of spiritual prison to Paradise… yet, their salvation was not fully received until AFTER Jesus Christ rose from the dead.
Cannot receive the promise of salvation until AFTER Jesus Christ rose from the dead.
Hebrews 11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:39,40
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb.11.13,Heb.11.39,Heb.11.40&version=KJV
J
James456
Guest
Indeed:
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. Rom4:25
hebrews 11 is not about “ salvation “ it’s about the true promised land and the one left behind by those of faith
“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
Hebrews 11:13-14, 16 KJV
He’s been explaining how Abraham never settled in the land but rather lived in movable tents and always sojourned the land as of he was looking for a better place built by the lord
“In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
John 14:2-3 KJV
“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”
John 18:36
Of course no one could receive salvation until Jesus died and rose it’s the atonement for mankind’s sin and the propitiation of Gods wrath upon those in him . But Hebrews isn’t making that point there it’s talking about faith in that chapter and discussing the unseen things promised by God in the nt like the new heaven and earth and new Jerusalem
All people, before or after Christ's resurrection, receive eternal salvation upon believing. None of these people receive the fullness of that salvation until after they die.
The thief on the cross received salvation before he died and went to paradise. The Hebrews 11 people received salvation before they died. Not yet having received the promises or having been made perfect didn't alter the fact that they received eternal salvation before they died.
Pre or post Christ's resurrection has nothing to do with when a person receives salvation. They receive salvation during their lifetime, before they die. None of them - including us = receive the fullness of salvation before we die.
Ephesians 2:8 ... for by grace are ye saved through faith ... = salvation already received.
Romans 13:11 ... for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed ... = culmination of that same salvation, which is not yet received.
Just as with the Hebrews 11 saved people, we in this day will not be made perfect apart from people in the future, who are yet to receive salvation during their lifetimes before they die.
The thief on the cross spoke of HIMSELF: "Remember me". He was facing immediate death and wanted to get saved first. Only already-saved people enter the kingdom.
... the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. Matt 21:31-32
... it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Mark 9:47
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets [Hebrews 11 people], in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. Luke 13:28
These are people who received eternal salvation by faith during their lifetimes. All the rest are thrust out (go to hell).
The thief on the cross received salvation before he died and went to paradise. The Hebrews 11 people received salvation before they died. Not yet having received the promises or having been made perfect didn't alter the fact that they received eternal salvation before they died.
Pre or post Christ's resurrection has nothing to do with when a person receives salvation. They receive salvation during their lifetime, before they die. None of them - including us = receive the fullness of salvation before we die.
Ephesians 2:8 ... for by grace are ye saved through faith ... = salvation already received.
Romans 13:11 ... for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed ... = culmination of that same salvation, which is not yet received.
Just as with the Hebrews 11 saved people, we in this day will not be made perfect apart from people in the future, who are yet to receive salvation during their lifetimes before they die.
The thief on the cross spoke of HIMSELF: "Remember me". He was facing immediate death and wanted to get saved first. Only already-saved people enter the kingdom.
... the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. Matt 21:31-32
... it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Mark 9:47
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets [Hebrews 11 people], in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. Luke 13:28
These are people who received eternal salvation by faith during their lifetimes. All the rest are thrust out (go to hell).
Hello,
OT saints were saved before the resurrection. Heb 11 calls them: righteous (Heb 11:4), pleasing to God (11:5–6), obedient by faith (11:7–8), seeking a heavenly country (11:16), approved through faith (11:39)
Scripture proclaims they were > pleasing to God, obedient by faith, approved through faith > RIGHTEOUS. Their salvation was real, thru FAITH even though the cross had not yet occurred.
The thief on the cross was saved before the resurrection. Jesus said: TODAY, you will BE WITH ME in Paradise. Not someday - Not after the resurrection - TODAY!
Heb 11:13 & 11:39–40 are NOT about salvation. They're about the future INHERITANCE!
Heb 11:40, That they without us should not be made perfect. MADE PERFECT > Glorified-Resurrected > completed. This happens at the resurrection of the righteous, not at the moment of salvation.
They didn't receive the promise = indwelling Holy Spirit. You have received the promise, but, you haven't received your inheritance resurrected-glorified body.
I see that quite possibly true saved before the resurrection.
When Jesus was on that mountain and two other disciples there as well, saw Moses, endnote sure who else
So Moses was never in Spirit Prison by SatanHow all this will play out not once other but Father, Son and the Holy Spirit understand and work in unison to save us that will choose God sincerely.
Thanks
I mean even seeing before the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. Satan himself, had no clue
Authorized (King James) Version
1 Cor 2:7-8
7 but we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Judas was never saved. Jesus says he did not believe (Jn 6:64), calls him A DEVIL (Jn 6:70), identifies him as NOT CLEAN (Jn 13:10–11) & names him THE SON of PERDITION (Jn 17:12).
Judas receiving authority to preach & cast out demons (Matt 10:1–8) simply proves that ministry power is not salvation. False prophets cast out demons in (Matt 7:22–23) yet were never known by Christ.
Judas did not lose salvation, he never possessed it. His life shows that proximity to Jesus & participation in ministry do not equal regeneration.
could he have repented between Father and hisself over betraying Jesus. Would Father see past as gone, even though Judas killed himself and threw away the money he received. (Those to me are signs of repentance) Could it be, Father accepted Judas then and there to use Judas with Son in Spirit prison, (Since we need at least two witnesses) Son went to and preached Father to them there. Could Judas have been a Witness?
Personally I see the possibility and am elated over that, I still stand in trust to God no matter what. Whether or not Judas got or is saved by God Father of risen Son for us all or not. As you yourself know this truth possibility too.
Thank you GWH
If all these people received salvation BEFORE Jesus Christ rose from the dead, then why did Jesus Christ have to die?
Makes me ponder… the Lamb of God was slained BEFORE the foundation of the world…
Yet, at the appointed time, Jesus Christ as the Lamb manifested and was crucified, buried, and rose from the dead in a new eternal physical body…
If all these people received salvation BEFORE Jesus Christ rose from the dead, then why did Jesus Christ have to die?
Makes me ponder… the Lamb of God was slained BEFORE the foundation of the world…
Yet, at the appointed time, Jesus Christ as the Lamb manifested and was crucified, buried, and rose from the dead in a new eternal physical body…
Heavens price/wage for sin is blood.
Gen 22, Abram takes Isaac to Mt Moriah (where Jesus dies) Abram is ready to sacrifice & the Lord provides a Ram. All the OT saints sins were covered my animal sacrifices (picture a credit card) Jesus sinless perpetually cleansing God blood & resurrection Fathers proof the payment was made & accepted.
At death they went to Abraham's Bosom it's not a parable. Jesus names real people, describes real afterlife geography, affirms the Pharisees' existing doctrine of Sheol & uses the same location for the thief on the cross. Luke 16 is a literal revelation of the afterlife before the resurrection, not a symbolic story. Some (for sure) maybe all come out of the grave (Matt 27:52-53) right after Jesus-HE's 1st to resurrect.
Jesus had to die because His sinless death is the only payment acceptable to God for sin. OT saints were saved by faith in the promise of that payment; NT saints are saved by faith in the finished payment.
The cross & resurrection are the cause of salvation. Faith placed in the coming Messiah before or after the cross in risen Christ is the means of receiving it.