Some thoughts on the Jews

[birdie]

I agree, the First Testament did reference Jesus, he is woven through the text as you perfectly illustrated. It is also true that nearly all Jews had no reference to any written word and would not have been able to read it if they did. All they had was oral tradition and what the Priest or Pharisee told them t ment. They were led astray, kinda like today.

I think we should stand amazed at how many "Jews" did accept Christ once they heard the word, and not condemn the entire race. Replacement is evil.

Thanks Seeker47, for your point that many ancient Jews would not have had the 'old testament' section of the Bible to read, or even be able to read. That certainly seems likely. Jesus did make a statement in John 5 that Jews know what they worship, for salvation is of the Jews. In contrast the Samaritans did not know what they worship. Nevertheless, the time came that all who received Christ could worship in spirit and in truth.

It is interesting that you feel like people are condemning the entire race of Jews (however such a term 'Jews' might be defined in that context). Where have you found such people? And it is interesting that you mention 'replacement' and single it out as evil. Is that the same as 'replacement theology'? I don't know too much about so-called 'replacement theology'. I am personally extremely grateful that God used Jews in the past so thoroughly, and that Jesus came in the form of a Jewish man. I am also happy that Jews and Gentiles (every person on the planet) who believes the good news of the gospel will be saved, with no difference between all, so there is no longer a dividing wall between believers in Christ.

 

[Seeker47]

Thanks Seeker47, for your point that many ancient Jews would not have had the 'old testament' section of the Bible to read, or even be able to read. That certainly seems likely. Jesus did make a statement in John 5 that Jews know what they worship, for salvation is of the Jews. In contrast the Samaritans did not know what they worship. Nevertheless, the time came that all who received Christ could worship in spirit and in truth.

It is interesting that you feel like people are condemning the entire race of Jews (however such a term 'Jews' might be defined in that context). Where have you found such people? And it is interesting that you mention 'replacement' and single it out as evil. Is that the same as 'replacement theology'? I don't know too much about so-called 'replacement theology'. I am personally extremely grateful that God used Jews in the past so thoroughly, and that Jesus came in the form of a Jewish man. I am also happy that Jews and Gentiles (every person on the planet) who believes the good news of the gospel will be saved, with no difference between all, so there is no longer a dividing wall between believers in Christ.

Sorry my response as been slow, life intervenes!

First, "Jews" have been condemned by Christians throughout history. It became acceptable under Constantine and has continued uninterrupted since then. This hatred has ebbed and flowed but has always been present. We now appear to be going through a period of increasing antisemitism, especially here in he US. Some hatred has been outright while some more subtle. You will not need to look hard to find "Christians" who believe all Jews have been condemned to hell because a few have not yet embraced our Savior as they should.

Yes I was referring to replacement theology. This is the idea that the "Jews" have denied Christ, so they are no longer God's people. The privilege of being God's people has now been transferred to the Christian Church. "Christians" are now god's people and have inherited all the promises and covenants God originally gave to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This idea voids God's covenants and makes Him a liar.

I am aware my comments will be viewed as radical and seen as confrontational. This is an issue that once you see it, you cannot understand how you failed recognize it earlier. Look at our high schools, our college campuses, and the wide spread and ignorant support for the Philistines (Palestine) in the US. If this does not create a shudder in your soul, be very concerned.

I too rejoice that there are fewer barriers between believers. I just want to include all believers who put their faith in YHWH. We can then fully rest in the righteousness of Jesus.

 

[homwardbound]

Sorry my response as been slow, life intervenes!

First, "Jews" have been condemned by Christians throughout history. It became acceptable under Constantine and has continued uninterrupted since then. This hatred has ebbed and flowed but has always been present. We now appear to be going through a period of increasing antisemitism, especially here in he US. Some hatred has been outright while some more subtle. You will not need to look hard to find "Christians" who believe all Jews have been condemned to hell because a few have not yet embraced our Savior as they should.

Yes I was referring to replacement theology. This is the idea that the "Jews" have denied Christ, so they are no longer God's people. The privilege of being God's people has now been transferred to the Christian Church. "Christians" are now god's people and have inherited all the promises and covenants God originally gave to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This idea voids God's covenants and makes Him a liar.

I am aware my comments will be viewed as radical and seen as confrontational. This is an issue that once you see it, you cannot understand how you failed recognize it earlier. Look at our high schools, our college campuses, and the wide spread and ignorant support for the Philistines (Palestine) in the US. If this does not create a shudder in your soul, be very concerned.

I too rejoice that there are fewer barriers between believers. I just want to include all believers who put their faith in YHWH. We can then fully rest in the righteousness of Jesus.

Believe God it is finished for us to be new in the risen Son to lead through in Father's Holy Spirit to love all, includes those that have done us wrong as we have sought out those we did wrong and sought forgiveness from. whether or not another one does forgive us. We truly asked and admitted to it
Want to be free, then willingly do it, thank you, I have, yet did not find all, yet did my best God has accepted this. Idid this in sincerity between God and me, next?

 

[Adstar]

I believe the Jews were looking for a regal looking Savior coming on a white horse wanting to restore the Davidic kingdom. In reality, He came to earth humble….

Yes they where so focused on the ""messiah"" they wanted they could not accept the Actual Messiah that came to them.. They had eyes that could not see and ears that would not listen.. Lots of people today suffer from the same kind of blindness..

 

[Adstar]

As for the Jews they have not succeeded in keeping the Old testament covenant.. And i believe they will be unable to keep it into the future.. Therefore the only Way today's Jews can have their transgressions atoned for is by the LORD Jesus.. That means they need to say blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD..

(Matthew 23:38-39) "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. {39} For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

They need to acknowledge the Word of God and trust in the Atonement He secured on the Cross..

 

[birdie]

Sorry my response as been slow, life intervenes!

First, "Jews" have been condemned by Christians throughout history. It became acceptable under Constantine and has continued uninterrupted since then. This hatred has ebbed and flowed but has always been present. We now appear to be going through a period of increasing antisemitism, especially here in he US. Some hatred has been outright while some more subtle. You will not need to look hard to find "Christians" who believe all Jews have been condemned to hell because a few have not yet embraced our Savior as they should.

Yes I was referring to replacement theology. This is the idea that the "Jews" have denied Christ, so they are no longer God's people. The privilege of being God's people has now been transferred to the Christian Church. "Christians" are now god's people and have inherited all the promises and covenants God originally gave to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This idea voids God's covenants and makes Him a liar.

I am aware my comments will be viewed as radical and seen as confrontational. This is an issue that once you see it, you cannot understand how you failed recognize it earlier. Look at our high schools, our college campuses, and the wide spread and ignorant support for the Philistines (Palestine) in the US. If this does not create a shudder in your soul, be very concerned.

I too rejoice that there are fewer barriers between believers. I just want to include all believers who put their faith in YHWH. We can then fully rest in the righteousness of Jesus.

Thanks Seeker47, for your comments. In pure practice, that is in truth, there are no barriers between Jews and Gentiles who believe in Christ, not just fewer barriers, but no barriers. The barriers that the Bible mentions as spiritual barriers are between any persons of planet earth that are in Christ and those that are not in Christ. It doesn't matter whether they call themselves Jews or Gentiles in that respect. The ones born of the flesh persecute the ones born of the spirit.

I appreciate that you have concerns about antiSemitic hatred around the world, and it goes without saying that there is antiethnic hatred and political hatred everywhere. In my country, there is a certain amount of antiblack hatred and antiwhite hatred, not to mention antimen hatred and antiLiberal hatred and antiConservative hatred and so forth. All of these things are products of the fallen state of humans and are not really part of the freedom to love found in Christ's covenant. Christ will overcome all of these and his kingdom, incidentally, is not of this world.

I was not too sure what you meant when you speak of covenants specifically for the Jews that perhaps you see as still in effect yet separate from Christ's covenant for all persons in Christ. I see that there is only one covenant in Christ that exists. It is good news for everyone in Christ both Jews and Gentiles. Do you see things that way as well or do you see things as being several covenants. If you still maintain that several covenants are in effect today, please give a specific verse, so that we can address that.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes they where so focused on the ""messiah"" they wanted they could not accept the Actual Messiah that came to them.. They had eyes that could not see and ears that would not listen.. Lots of people today suffer from the same kind of blindness..

Yet, the first converts were Jews and Samaritans.

 

[rewriter]

I recently came to understand that the concept of a redeeming personal savior (Yeshua) does not appear anywhere in the First Testament. It is a concept that first began appearing about 300 years after the First Testament was completed.

The concept held by the ancient Jews for millennia was of Masiah, an “anointed one.” To be anointed was to be made Holy, set aside for special purpose determined for God. It was a political term, an act reserved for Kings, Priests, or Prophets. Anointing by God established their authority to lead.

For generations the prophets had foretold of a coming Masiah, a King who would come and accomplish their dreams. They anticipated with great joy the restoration of the Kingdom of David. An anointed King who would liberate them form foreign servanthood, bring world peace, establish justice, restore the Temple, and return the lost tribes to their homeland. The need for a personal redeemer was foreign to them; God had already provided for their redemption.

Could anyone expect God’s people, scattered throughout the earth, to instantly put aside thousands of years of anticipation at the feeble call of a shepherd? A shepherd who spoke occasionally to but a handful of people gathered in the most backward area of the Kingdom? A shepherd executed by Temple and Synagogue leaders of his own faith? That plan God chose in His wisdom takes time.

Dare we now condemn an entire race of men, people God chose for his own, because they held to their faith? Was this not God’s plan all along? God has provided for their redemption, and we know Yeshua is his instrument. But consider even more, everything God’s chosen have been dreaming about, the Davidic King, the nation, world peace, freedom, justice, a new Temple, and the restoration of all people, will be accomplished just as they were told; everything! Their faith has never been false.

And because of their faith we get to go too!

I am not certain about your 300-year period, there are debates on that, but the general idea I agree with. Herod starting building around the temple in anticipation. Herod never actually touched the temple, but he built glorious structures all around it and dedicated a large area as part of the temple complex.

But exactly who or what was expected is different than we are commonly led to believe. The recognized prophesies were many. The coming Messiah was to be of David's line, unless that line had been rejected as can be inferred from some passages, in which he would be of a different royal line. Except maybe he was of a priestly line, that of Aaron, or maybe Moses or maybe the Zadokite line or like Melchizedek. But then there was also the belief that there was not a single Messiah but two of them, one like Moses and one like Aaron. The predictions of a Davidic messiah are easily known. A priestly messiah is hinted at in John. Hebrews openly reference Melchizedek and Revelation implies two.

Overall, it is easy to see what you are told to see, but when you study more, more becomes visible, and sometimes makes things less clear for a time. But then God can also lift the fog and reveal the hidden truth. By second grade most people can read and do math, and thus are capable of learning whatever they want. By early adulthood, people learn just how little they know and can get lost in the fog of foo much knowledge. But as one matures, what is really important becomes much more clear to some, but clearly not all as some people never seem to get it.

 

[Seeker47]

Thanks Seeker47, for your comments. In pure practice, that is in truth, there are no barriers between Jews and Gentiles who believe in Christ, not just fewer barriers, but no barriers. The barriers that the Bible mentions as spiritual barriers are between any persons of planet earth that are in Christ and those that are not in Christ. It doesn't matter whether they call themselves Jews or Gentiles in that respect. The ones born of the flesh persecute the ones born of the spirit.

I appreciate that you have concerns about antiSemitic hatred around the world, and it goes without saying that there is antiethnic hatred and political hatred everywhere. In my country, there is a certain amount of antiblack hatred and antiwhite hatred, not to mention antimen hatred and antiLiberal hatred and antiConservative hatred and so forth. All of these things are products of the fallen state of humans and are not really part of the freedom to love found in Christ's covenant. Christ will overcome all of these and his kingdom, incidentally, is not of this world.

I was not too sure what you meant when you speak of covenants specifically for the Jews that perhaps you see as still in effect yet separate from Christ's covenant for all persons in Christ. I see that there is only one covenant in Christ that exists. It is good news for everyone in Christ both Jews and Gentiles. Do you see things that way as well or do you see things as being several covenants. If you still maintain that several covenants are in effect today, please give a specific verse, so that we can address that.

You use the phrase “…who believe in Christ” but what does that actually mean? Most explain that exclusively in Second Testament terms. In truth, it is a church doctrine that even Christians do not agree upon. Now, before I get crucified, I will add that Jesus is indeed the only route to salvation and through Him we become children of God. I however, do not restrict his salvation to events and ideas expressed exclusively on the Second Testament.

I also reject anyone who claims to know the depth of God’s love; where it begins or where it ends. Further, Jesus is the image of His Father. He was there at the creation and has been present and at work ever since. He did not begin in Bethlehem. Can anyone claim they know everything He does to bring salvation?

God’s word never changes and His covenants are forever, they are not altered or revoked, not one. To do so would make him a fraud. He made a covenant with His people, first the Jews and then all believers, that if they believed in Him and obeyed His word, they would be His people and He would be their God forever. I know this is true even though I cannot explain how or why or when it all happens.

Jesus told us the after His resurrection we would worship in spirit and truth. The covenants were not void, not a single word was changed. They were fulfilled, elevated to their fullest spiritual meaning. (Just like some day all believers will be elevated to our fullest spiritual being.) They are just as valid today as the day He spoke them with His mouth.

Matthew 5:17-18

 

[birdie]

You use the phrase “…who believe in Christ” but what does that actually mean? Most explain that exclusively in Second Testament terms. In truth, it is a church doctrine that even Christians do not agree upon. Now, before I get crucified, I will add that Jesus is indeed the only route to salvation and through Him we become children of God. I however, do not restrict his salvation to events and ideas expressed exclusively on the Second Testament.

I also reject anyone who claims to know the depth of God’s love; where it begins or where it ends. Further, Jesus is the image of His Father. He was there at the creation and has been present and at work ever since. He did not begin in Bethlehem. Can anyone claim they know everything He does to bring salvation?

God’s word never changes and His covenants are forever, they are not altered or revoked, not one. To do so would make him a fraud. He made a covenant with His people, first the Jews and then all believers, that if they believed in Him and obeyed His word, they would be His people and He would be their God forever. I know this is true even though I cannot explain how or why or when it all happens.

Jesus told us the after His resurrection we would worship in spirit and truth. The covenants were not void, not a single word was changed. They were fulfilled, elevated to their fullest spiritual meaning. (Just like some day all believers will be elevated to our fullest spiritual being.) They are just as valid today as the day He spoke them with His mouth.

Matthew 5:17-18

Thanks Seeker47, for your comments. You did not mention a specific scripture so I have not sure exactly what you are referring to. The scriptures from the 'old testament' and the 'new testament' are in agreement, so I am not sure what you are trying to say. Abraham, for example, received promises from God but they are for all in Christ, Jews and Gentiles. That is why Abraham is the father of all who believe. Perhaps you agree, but I am at a loss to understand what you are saying unless you give specific scriptures.

 

[Seeker47]

Thanks Seeker47, for your comments. You did not mention a specific scripture so I have not sure exactly what you are referring to. The scriptures from the 'old testament' and the 'new testament' are in agreement, so I am not sure what you are trying to say. Abraham, for example, received promises from God but they are for all in Christ, Jews and Gentiles. That is why Abraham is the father of all who believe. Perhaps you agree, but I am at a loss to understand what you are saying unless you give specific scriptures.

I gave one-at the bottom. A second would be John 4:21-24

And you are not the first who has trouble understanding me!

 

[birdie]

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

I gave one-at the bottom. A second would be John 4:21-24

And you are not the first who has trouble understanding me!

Thanks Seeker47, for your statements. It is fun to get some discussion from someone who apparently has a Jewish background, so I enjoy hearing your concerns and hearing about the things that are important to you. You gave 2 scriptures which I will address, but you also asked what does it actually mean when I say those persons 'who believe in Christ'. I guess you could say that I mean it in its pure sense, meaning those individuals whom God has literally included among his sheep, so to speak. There are many ways to describe this saved typed of person in the Bible and many groups claiming to be Christian might emphasize this or that aspect, when it is really a complete bundle of ways to describe. Some groups claiming to be Christian might not be saved at all, whilst others may. Nevertheless, a saved person will be quickened by God from a life apart from God to a relationship with God and with his word. A believer in Christ is likely to say something like: 'Let's pray about that', or 'praise God', or 'what is the Bible's advice'. A non-believer is not likely to have God in their thoughts, in contrast. Simply belief in God, in the gospel, is enough to mean eternal life for a person, but it is always something that God gives to the person, in giving the person the ability to believe. "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: " "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? "

Now, concerning the two scriptures you mention:
Matthew 5:17-18:
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. "

This is a scripture emphasizing that the law and the prophets (which are both a way of saying the scriptures) are speaking about Jesus. Jesus did not come to do away with what the scriptures say, but rather to fulfill. For example, when Moses strikes a rock, and water comes out so that the thirsty people can drink, it is a picture of what Jesus came to fulfill. The rock is a picture of Jesus, and when he is struck (at the cross), the water of salvation is made available to those who thirst for salvation. "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. " How is the law fulfilled? By Jesus being everything the law speaks about.

John 4:21-24:
"Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. "

This scripture emphasizes that the Jews are the ones who have the truth in their scriptures, and in the God that first made himself known to them. The scripture continues that God the Father seeks persons to worship him. Worship is a matter of God's spirit given to men and a matter of truth (in agreement with the truth of the scriptures).

Did you still have something you feel I have not addressed and would like to consider in these verses, or something you wish to ask about?

 

[homwardbound]

Overall, it is easy to see what you are told to see, but when you study more, more becomes visible, and sometimes makes things less clear for a time. But then God can also lift the fog and reveal the hidden truth. By second grade most people can read and do math, and thus are capable of learning whatever they want. By early adulthood, people learn just how little they know and can get lost in the fog of foo much knowledge. But as one matures, what is really important becomes much more clear to some, but clearly not all as some people never seem to get it.

truth is, Salvation is from God Father through risen Son. it is love beyond understanding to any flesh and blood
in Scripture I was reading when Saul before became Paul saw Stephan rejoice over being stoned to death
Then that road to Damascus happened. If I were Saul and saw Stephan accept death, being stoned and claim to have seen God accept him in there.and willingly die without fighting back.
Then saw Son appear and blind me by the light of Father shining through him, deeper than Moses ever seen first the light shining through him too.
I would accept and be willing to be taught new, who wouldn't

 

[rewriter]

truth is, Salvation is from God Father through risen Son. it is love beyond understanding to any flesh and blood
in Scripture I was reading when Saul before became Paul saw Stephan rejoice over being stoned to death
Then that road to Damascus happened. If I were Saul and saw Stephan accept death, being stoned and claim to have seen God accept him in there.and willingly die without fighting back.
Then saw Son appear and blind me by the light of Father shining through him, deeper than Moses ever seen first the light shining through him too.
I would accept and be willing to be taught new, who wouldn't

I understand what you are saying, but I also know too many people who say, "If I had known I would have done ...", but later, when they know about a situation and promise to take action, they find excuses why they cannot until their promises are forgotten, much like the parable of the Sower, intent is good but worldly cares override.

 

[Seeker47]

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.


Thanks Seeker47, for your statements. It is fun to get some discussion from someone who apparently has a Jewish background, so I enjoy hearing your concerns and hearing about the things that are important to you. You gave 2 scriptures which I will address, but you also asked what does it actually mean when I say those persons 'who believe in Christ'. I guess you could say that I mean it in its pure sense, meaning those individuals whom God has literally included among his sheep, so to speak. There are many ways to describe this saved typed of person in the Bible and many groups claiming to be Christian might emphasize this or that aspect, when it is really a complete bundle of ways to describe. Some groups claiming to be Christian might not be saved at all, whilst others may. Nevertheless, a saved person will be quickened by God from a life apart from God to a relationship with God and with his word. A believer in Christ is likely to say something like: 'Let's pray about that', or 'praise God', or 'what is the Bible's advice'. A non-believer is not likely to have God in their thoughts, in contrast. Simply belief in God, in the gospel, is enough to mean eternal life for a person, but it is always something that God gives to the person, in giving the person the ability to believe. "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: " "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? "

Now, concerning the two scriptures you mention:
Matthew 5:17-18:
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. "

This is a scripture emphasizing that the law and the prophets (which are both a way of saying the scriptures) are speaking about Jesus. Jesus did not come to do away with what the scriptures say, but rather to fulfill. For example, when Moses strikes a rock, and water comes out so that the thirsty people can drink, it is a picture of what Jesus came to fulfill. The rock is a picture of Jesus, and when he is struck (at the cross), the water of salvation is made available to those who thirst for salvation. "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. " How is the law fulfilled? By Jesus being everything the law speaks about.

John 4:21-24:
"Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. "

This scripture emphasizes that the Jews are the ones who have the truth in their scriptures, and in the God that first made himself known to them. The scripture continues that God the Father seeks persons to worship him. Worship is a matter of God's spirit given to men and a matter of truth (in agreement with the truth of the scriptures).

Did you still have something you feel I have not addressed and would like to consider in these verses, or something you wish to ask about?

Your comment about me having a Jewish background gave me a giggle, and perhaps just a bit of joy. In truth, I have no Jewish connections and very little knowledge of Judaism. What I do know is two things; history, and the Bible.

Beginning with Daniel, God’s people have been forced into making a simple choice, convert or die. This pattern has continued uninterrupted throughout history. Babylon, Assyria, Greece, Rome, the Constantinian Church, the Pope, radical Islam, the Protestants; all have forced this same question. Many modern churches maintain that a Jew must convert, they must publicly proclaim Yeshua as Lord and be baptized, else they burn in hell eternally. They must turn from the God of their Fathers and Grandfathers, the very God of their Bible, their God for countless generations who has held them close and always kept His promises; and then convert to a faith they find contrary.

I find myself standing on the edge of a vast chasm unable to cross. How can conversion be reconciled with God’s truth and this gaping crack closed? I refuse to accept a few out-of-context Bible quotes that attempt to solve this conflict but contradict Gods word.

Again, Yeshua is the savior for both Jews and gentiles, there is no debate. The best answer I have is that God has not explained this to us. We just don’t know how God’s chosen people, those who believe in YHWH and love their neighbor, are brought to salvation. I believe in my heart it is not by conversion.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

A shepherd executed by Temple and Synagogue leaders of his own faith? That plan God chose in His wisdom takes time.

Didn't Jesus say to a church,
I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 2

Dare we now condemn an entire race of men, people God chose for his own, because they held to their faith? Was this not God’s plan all along? God has provided for their redemption, and we know Yeshua is his instrument.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3

Jesus Christ stated to a ruler of the Jews, a Pharisee, the requirement for salvation. He rebuked the leadership frequently and harshly because they were misleading the world to Hell.
When they were supposed to be leading the gentile pagan nations to the Savior, the Root and Offspring of David, they condemned the only just one.

I don't see where that ever changed. It's the same old story with those who claim to be Jews, yet cannot trace any bloodlines back to Judah from whence the term originated. However the leadership has remained true to the faith of the Pharisees (today's Orthodox) and the Saducees (the liberal Jews.) The object of THEIR faith is their law and good works, none of which can add to the righteousness which Christ aka Messiah is.

a new Temple, and the restoration of all people, will be accomplished just as they were told; everything! Their faith has never been false.

And because of their faith we get to go too!

Those who had faith in the true Messiah, like the New Testament apostles and prophet John the Baptist, certainly had faith. That is in fact good news that they preached. Their faith was apart from the deeds of the law, whose object was Jesus Christ.

 

[rewriter]

Your comment about me having a Jewish background gave me a giggle, and perhaps just a bit of joy. In truth, I have no Jewish connections and very little knowledge of Judaism. What I do know is two things; history, and the Bible.

Beginning with Daniel, God’s people have been forced into making a simple choice, convert or die. This pattern has continued uninterrupted throughout history. Babylon, Assyria, Greece, Rome, the Constantinian Church, the Pope, radical Islam, the Protestants; all have forced this same question. Many modern churches maintain that a Jew must convert, they must publicly proclaim Yeshua as Lord and be baptized, else they burn in hell eternally. They must turn from the God of their Fathers and Grandfathers, the very God of their Bible, their God for countless generations who has held them close and always kept His promises; and then convert to a faith they find contrary.

I find myself standing on the edge of a vast chasm unable to cross. How can conversion be reconciled with God’s truth and this gaping crack closed? I refuse to accept a few out-of-context Bible quotes that attempt to solve this conflict but contradict Gods word.

Again, Yeshua is the savior for both Jews and gentiles, there is no debate. The best answer I have is that God has not explained this to us. We just don’t know how God’s chosen people, those who believe in YHWH and love their neighbor, are brought to salvation. I believe in my heart it is not by conversion.

I might be showing my age here, but back in the 70's in ecumenical circles there was a joke addressing this issue.

"The Day of the Lord came while Christians and Jews were arguing over the Messiah and what Jesus meant for the faiths. After all these great minds were in the undeniable presence of God but still arguing, a small voice arose. "God, we really want to know. was this the first time you came to earth or the second?" The entire crowd grew still and waited for the answer. After a lengthy pause, God, sitting on His throne, responded, "No comment."

 

[birdie]

Your comment about me having a Jewish background gave me a giggle, and perhaps just a bit of joy. In truth, I have no Jewish connections and very little knowledge of Judaism. What I do know is two things; history, and the Bible.

Beginning with Daniel, God’s people have been forced into making a simple choice, convert or die. This pattern has continued uninterrupted throughout history. Babylon, Assyria, Greece, Rome, the Constantinian Church, the Pope, radical Islam, the Protestants; all have forced this same question. Many modern churches maintain that a Jew must convert, they must publicly proclaim Yeshua as Lord and be baptized, else they burn in hell eternally. They must turn from the God of their Fathers and Grandfathers, the very God of their Bible, their God for countless generations who has held them close and always kept His promises; and then convert to a faith they find contrary.

I find myself standing on the edge of a vast chasm unable to cross. How can conversion be reconciled with God’s truth and this gaping crack closed? I refuse to accept a few out-of-context Bible quotes that attempt to solve this conflict but contradict Gods word.

Again, Yeshua is the savior for both Jews and gentiles, there is no debate. The best answer I have is that God has not explained this to us. We just don’t know how God’s chosen people, those who believe in YHWH and love their neighbor, are brought to salvation. I believe in my heart it is not by conversion.

Thanks Seeker47. I think I am starting to understand where you are coming from. Forced conversion by men is what you are disliking. Also, you feel that certainly a loving Jewish person who does not confess Christ must still be possible to be saved by God. Let's cover the first idea first - forced conversion. The Bible does not say that Christians are to force people to convert or die in any political or physical way. When you read in history books about countries that are claiming to be majority Christian or any other religion who say convert of die, you are looking at something other than the Bible way. The Bible says that we are to share the gospel and it is up to the person whether they receive it or not. If God quickens a person's heart to believe on him unto salvation then that is God who has acted to give them a new life in Christ. Their sins are forgiven them. If the person does not receive the gospel as truth, then they are still in their sins for they have rejected the one (Jesus) whom God has sent to save. Conversion to Christ is necessary not just for Jews but for Gentiles as well. But it is a new resurrected spirit that the person receives, not a political confession with no heart basis. There is no other plan given by God by which we must be saved, no plan besides the blood of Jesus. This is not what a few verses of the Bible say but what the entire Bible attests to. Incidentally, God's 'chosen people' are those who do receive the gospel message and do put their trust in Jesus. Not all Jews are to be called Gods chosen people. Not all Gentiles either. Ones converted in the heart to God, to Jesus, are the ones who love God and others in truth as God enables them . How can someone say that they love God and love their neighbor if they reject God in reality. The heart of men is wicked and can not see the truth unless God opens the heart. When Jesus appeared to the Pharisees in the Bible and they desired to kill him, they were not believing God, who stood right in front of them. They wanted to follow themselves and their own heart and not God - but that leads to death. No eternal life in that path.

The second idea, of having loving neighbors who are non-Jesus-believing Jews (or any others backgrounds or religions who do not receive the gospel) but who are wonderful nice people, will they be saved? We all know many persons like this. The Bible does not direct us to condemn such people. Who knows what the future holds for that person in relation to the gospel and to God. In fact, if it were me, I would simply pray that God open their understanding to receive Christ in their hearts, if he has not already. It is a bit of a red flag if someone does not receive the gospel or Jesus' message, though. It is only up to us to share the gospel. It is up to God what the outcome is for the person.

What about you? Do you believe that Christ came to die for our sins, and have you put your trust in him with your eternal soul or in something else?

 

[homwardbound]

I understand what you are saying, but I also know too many people who say, "If I had known I would have done ...", but later, when they know about a situation and promise to take action, they find excuses why they cannot until their promises are forgotten, much like the parable of the Sower, intent is good but worldly cares override.

Thank you I agree time to maybe see deeper, wider and higher. This started with the first Adam, Eve with him. It was the woman. The woman it was the serpent.
Religious leaders seek out proselytes (People) and when get them in with them, they make them twice the sons of hell as themself. We all are first born with the knowledge of right and wrong to stand in doing what is right, no matter what others think. Many choose what is selfish, for their own favor and hide, not wanting to die. No one is first born a sinner, all are born after Adam to have the same knowledge he got from eating on that tree. We all remain to have free choice to choose God in Spirit and truth or self to do our own thought what is right or not. Most do what they think and do not take all thought captive, I am learning to daily do that standing in trust to God Father through risen Son. I have chose wrong in past, do not care to do that anymore ever or blame anyone else for my actions or reactions. I am accountable

In the self anger that happens over not getting approved, from anyone, especially God. As did happen between Cain and Abel, the first murder. Still going forward today daily. people stealing, killing and destroying one another. Emotion is the thief in John 10:10a
We still get the choice to choose. I see what God said to Cain before Cain killed Abel. We still can choose no to do wrong knowing wrong.
Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. So today we have a lot of self righteous people. A lot of legalists, no love and mercy unless we agree between one another. As Jesus said God requires mercy over sacrifice.
So we do have the opportunity to do right having the knowledge of right and wrong? The problem forward to the day of Son was/is not one other person but Son was is perfect and even afterwards in his death, burial and resurrection. God left only one choice left to choose after Son did what is done once for everyone to choose, God, self or others in flesh also. To believe God or not in risen Son for them personally, then one will do right automatically God leading, no more having to, which having to brings on sin in having to do it. Romans 7 explains that one.

God Called all the time to believe God, trust God, by continuing giving free choice to choose God to lead them or not from day one in the first Adam. Man, keeps saying I will lord and then goes out and does their own thing, not wanting to die. Now in Son as risen we have are freed from Spiritual death John 16:33
So Son and God saw for Son to become flesh and die once for us all to forgive us all 100% from his sight to us all. that got done, proven in the resurrection. For us each to choose to believe God personally and be set free and thus love all in the same love and mercy of Son given first, John 13:34 Thank you God by Son we now can enter your throne of grace and get taught new in love to all and no more excusing or accusing anyone else, Thank you

No more excusing accusing, abusing or misusing. This today is standing in trust to God Father in risen Son, seeing 1 John 2:27

To see daily I choose to reckon me dead to sin, thanks to Son for me and everyone else as well, whether they see it or not yet
God knows all, I trust God even in troubles and I have had my share, still no way even close to what Jesus went through to save us all.
Has left for all in love to all, the free choice to choose God is for us or not, thank you Father and Son as Won (One) I choose, chose you and see to not deny you ever thank you for this gift

 

[TruthDefender]

Thanks Seeker47, for your point that many ancient Jews would not have had the 'old testament' section of the Bible to read, or even be able to read. That certainly seems likely. Jesus did make a statement in John 5 that Jews know what they worship, for salvation is of the Jews. In contrast the Samaritans did not know what they worship. Nevertheless, the time came that all who received Christ could worship in spirit and in truth.

It is interesting that you feel like people are condemning the entire race of Jews (however such a term 'Jews' might be defined in that context). Where have you found such people? And it is interesting that you mention 'replacement' and single it out as evil. Is that the same as 'replacement theology'? I don't know too much about so-called 'replacement theology'. I am personally extremely grateful that God used Jews in the past so thoroughly, and that Jesus came in the form of a Jewish man. I am also happy that Jews and Gentiles (every person on the planet) who believes the good news of the gospel will be saved, with no difference between all, so there is no longer a dividing wall between believers in Christ.

I’ve never heard of replacement theology, but in part, the NT teaches us that God’s people are now Christians and not Jews. We are spiritual Jews, circumcised in the heart and not in the flesh. We are considered children of Abraham, through Isaac, because of the blood of Christ.

However, there is a caveat, we are only His IF we do His will.