Pre Trib or Post trib rapture?

[Lemuel]

Now that's funny, Brother! You hold to the post trib view of the rapture so you have preconceived notions of a post trib rapture. I'm not playing word games. But if a person believes one thing and wonders if they are wrong then in order to double check themselves they must first pretend they dont think anything yet. Set that aside for the exercise of double checking oneself. Havent you ever done that to yourself when learning things?

If you hold to the posttrib view as you listen to the pretrib view being stated you would never catch any mistakes that way because your posttrib view would dominate your thoughts and block understanding.

So before you go into the "classroom" for a class, you have no view, you are...teachable. Does it make sense as stand alone data or not? It either makes sense or it dont. You post tribbers have not set me straight on anything so no one writes much in support of the posttrib view because there isnt any support for it academically, so people will either remain silent, or start calling names, lol! Can no one explain to the poor dogs a post trib rapture and make it make sense?!

I used to be post trib! Until I had a very good teacher who walked me through it (pre trib) and I understand it and it does make sense.

I suspect that people of a post trib position are the same people who have not done the homework for themself, so they are wrong and dont even know it.

I know, what preconceived notions are. You didn't really have to explain that. Of course I hold the posttribulational view. My opinion was shaped primarily by the study of the word of God and not by some teacher in contrast to some other person...

Your trying to make what I say match your preconconceived notions. You never will understand pretrib if you can not set aside your pre conceived notions and read with an open mind.

Good luck with that.

You still didn't explain what part of your post I supposedly tried to shape into something else. Was it just an empty accusation?

 

[Lemuel]

Well then, you might want to carefully examine another crucial, pivotal Hebrew wedding scenario, where the Kinsman Redeemer is doing His work.

******************************************************************************************************

This is one of the richest prophetic pictures in the entire Old Testament. The Book of Ruth is not just a love story — it is a prophetic model of the Church age and the redemption of the Gentile Bride by Christ.


I’ll walk it step-by-step and then show how the threshing floor = pre-trib rapture.


1. Boaz = Christ, the Kinsman-Redeemer

The Hebrew word is goel (גואל) — kinsman-redeemer.
A goel had to meet four legal requirements under the Law of Moses (Lev 25; Deut 25):


Requirement Boaz Jesus Must be a close relative
Boaz was Elimelech’s near kinsman
Jesus became human — “took on flesh” - Must be able to redeem
Boaz was wealthy - Christ possessed infinite worth
Must be willing - Boaz said “I will redeem” - Jesus willingly went to the cross
Must be free himself - Boaz had no debt - Christ was sinless

Boaz is explicitly called “a mighty man of wealth” (Ruth 2:1) — a prophetic shadow of Christ’s infinite redemptive power.


2. Ruth = the Gentile Bride (the Church)

Ruth is not Jewish — she is a Moabite, from a cursed Gentile nation (Deut 23:3). Yet:

“Your people shall be my people, and your God my God.” (Ruth 1:16)​

That is the confession of the Church.


Ruth represents Gentiles who attach themselves to Israel’s Messiah.


Just like the Church:
• She is foreign
• She is poor
• She has no inheritance
• She is brought into blessing by grace


She does not pursue Boaz.
Boaz pursues Ruth.


This mirrors Christ choosing the Church.


3. Naomi = Israel

Naomi is the Jewish mother figure.
Her name means “pleasant”, but she becomes “Mara” (bitter) — Israel in exile.


She returns to the land empty (Ruth 1:21).
This is Israel after rejection of Messiah.


But Ruth returns with her — the Gentile bride walking with Israel back into blessing.


4. The Harvests = Church Age

There are two harvests in Ruth:


• Barley harvest (Ruth 1–2) — Firstfruits CHURCH
• Wheat harvest (Ruth 2–3) — Full harvest ISRAEL AND THE WORLD POST-CHURCH


Ruth meets Boaz during the FIRST harvest — just as the Church is called out during the first harvest.


Jesus said:

“The harvest is the end of the age.” THIS IS THE WHEAT HARVEST AFTER THE CHURCH HAS BEEN RAPTURED​

5. The Threshing Floor = Rapture Type

Now the most important part.


In Ruth 3:

Boaz sleeps on the threshing floor after winnowing barley.​

Threshing floor in Scripture always represents judgment & separation (Matt 3:12, Rev 14).


Grain is separated from chaff.


This is end-of-age imagery.


What does Ruth do?

Naomi instructs her:

1. Wash
2. Anoint yourself
3. Put on garments
4. Go down secretly at night
5. Approach Boaz while he sleeps

That is a picture of the Church:


• Washed (justified)
• Anointed (Holy Spirit)
• Clothed (righteousness)
• Comes in the night (unexpected)
• Goes up to Christ


Ruth uncovers Boaz’s feet and lies down.


This is a marriage request in Hebrew culture.


Boaz responds:

“Fear not… I will do all that you ask.”​

Then he gives her six measures of barley — not seven.


Seven = completion.
Six = work unfinished.


Why?


Because the marriage has not happened yet.


6. Ruth Leaves BEFORE Judgment Falls

Ruth leaves the threshing floor before morning:

“Let it not be known that a woman came to the floor.” (Ruth 3:14)​

This is huge.


She is removed before daylight, before public judgment begins.


That is exactly the pattern of the pre-trib rapture:


• Night
• Secret
• Removed before wrath
• Bride taken
• Then legal judgments begin


After Ruth leaves…


Boaz goes to the city gate to settle the legal redemption.


The city gate = judgment seat.


That is when Christ deals with Israel and the land — AFTER the Church is gone.


7. Then the Marriage Happens

Ruth is not present at the gate.
The Bride is not involved in the judgment of the earth.


After redemption is legally settled:

“Boaz took Ruth, and she became his wife.” (Ruth 4:13)​

Then comes fruitfulness.


8. Why this proves Pre-Trib

Order in Ruth:

1. Gentile bride chosen
2. Taken secretly from threshing floor
3. Legal redemption of land (Israel)
4. Public marriage
5. Kingdom blessing

Order in prophecy:

1. Church called
2. Raptured
3. Israel redeemed during Tribulation
4. Marriage of the Lamb
5. Kingdom

They match exactly.


Final Truth

Ruth is not a romance.
It is a prophetic blueprint of Christ and the Church.


Boaz = Christ
Ruth = Gentile Bride
Naomi = Israel
Threshing floor = end-time separation
Removal at night = rapture
Gate judgment = Tribulation
Marriage = Kingdom


The Church is taken before the threshing of the nations begins.

At this point I was honestly more interested in the part, where one gets locked up with his newly wedded wife in a chamber for 7 days, quite disappointing, that it is missing.

Ruth went away before the wrath. Was there wrath in the Boaz-story? He just made the necessary negotiations, I don't think there's brawl documented between Boaz and the other candidate or anything of that sort.

 

[Lemuel]

pre or post-trib rapture?

Pre-trib is a fraud and false doctrine?

"What Saith The Scriptures"?:

The Many Scriptural Reasons I believe God's Sound Doctrine built on His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided!:

God's Great GRACE Departure! {aka Pre-Trib rapture}

Outline!:

"Do all things Decently And In Order!" (1 Corinthians 14:40 AV)

(1A) PEACE With God! Receiving The Holy Spirit For understanding?
(1B) 1A e-x-p-a-n-d-e-d for Clarification?

(2a) Which Bible: AV, or, any "newer modern version" will suffice?
(2b) AV And God's Bible study Rules!

(3a) God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided! - Brief Introduction...
(3b) Three "Ages" Rightly Divided! = God's Timelines?

(4) Which "Gospel" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"?
(5) GREAT Tribulation? or, tribulations/GREAT GRACE Departure!?

(6) Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure Expectations!?
(7) God's Heavenly UPlook For His Body!?

(8) Watching, Waiting, And Looking: For WHOM! or, For "signs"?
(9) God's Removal Of His Body Of CHRIST!:

(10) "Day Of CHRIST { Light }!" / Rightly Divided from {RDf}:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \ "The Day Of The LORD [ Darkness ]!"?

(11) Confidence in death/resurrection, Or, in living/glorification!?
(12) CHRIST Will Come "Without Warning!"?

(13) The Two "Trumps" Of God, In His "Age Of GRACE"?
(14) Meeting Him "In The Air" Up To Heaven! vs U-turn (theology?)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Back down To earth?​

(15) Preparation For [ Israel's tribulation? OR: ]

The Judgment Seat Of Christ!? (1 Corinthians 3:8-15 AV)

(16) Post Departure Deception Question?
+
Note: any of the sections above are always open for discussion if you wish, just 'ask'...
+
Conclusion = Part 17:

God's Great GRACE Departure!​

​

"Wherefore Comfort one another With These Words!" (1 Thessalonians 4:18 AV)

Amen.

----------------------------

And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

What do the curly brackets do for you?

Could you please explain point (1B). I don't really know, which position you have or whether you have any position.

 

[cv5]

At this point I was honestly more interested in the part, where one gets locked up with his newly wedded wife in a chamber for 7 days, quite disappointing, that it is missing.

Ruth went away before the wrath. Was there wrath in the Boaz-story? He just made the necessary negotiations, I don't think there's brawl documented between Boaz and the other candidate or anything of that sort.

Rebekah, Asenath, Ruth, and Esther — the four great Gentile Bride types.

Esther = The Bride Hidden While Judgment Falls

Esther’s story is one of the clearest pre-tribulation pictures in the entire Old Testament.

1. Esther Is Taken Into the King’s House

Esther is:
• A foreigner
• An orphan
• Unknown
• Living among Gentiles


She is chosen by grace and brought into the palace before the crisis begins.

“Esther was taken into the king’s house.” (Esther 2:16)​

This is rapture imagery.


She doesn’t climb up — she is taken.


2. The Decree of Destruction Is Issued AFTER the Bride Is Secure

Only after Esther becomes queen does Haman issue the death decree:

“To destroy, to kill, and to annihilate all the Jews.” (Esther 3:13)​

That is the Tribulation decree.


The Jews are marked for death.
The world enters crisis.


But Esther is not in danger.


Why?


Because she is already in the palace.


3. Esther Is Hidden During the Threat

Her Jewish identity is hidden.


The king does not know who she is.


That is exactly the Church:
• Known to Christ
• Hidden from the world


She lives inside royal protection while judgment approaches.


4. Esther Appears AFTER Judgment Is Set in Motion

Esther does not reveal herself until the decree is already written.


Likewise, Christ does not reveal Himself to Israel until after the Tribulation begins.


5. The King Breaks the Decree for the Bride’s People

When Esther appears:


• Haman is destroyed
• Israel is delivered
• The kingdom is preserved


Just as Christ destroys Antichrist and saves Israel.


Why Esther Is the Final Piece

Ruth shows the call of the Bride
Joseph shows the taking of the Bride
Esther shows the Bride hidden during wrath


She is not raptured during the crisis —
She was already inside before it began.


God Wrote This On Purpose

Four women:
• Rebekah (chosen before Isaac meets her)
• Asenath (married before famine)
• Ruth (taken from threshing floor at night)
• Esther (inside the palace before decree)


One message:

The Bride is secured before judgment falls.​

 

[Omegatime]

Thank you for bringing up Joseph, yet another STUNNING PROOF of the pre-trib rapture!

**********************************************************************************************************

This is one of the clearest prophetic patterns of the Church hidden in Christ before Israel’s time of trouble begins — and it fits perfectly with the Ruth–Boaz pattern you were just studying.


Let’s walk it carefully.


1. Joseph = Rejected Messiah

Joseph is the most Christ-like figure in Genesis.


Joseph Jesus Loved by his father - Beloved Son of the Father
Rejected by his brothers - Rejected by Israel
Sold for silver - Betrayed for silver
Taken to the Gentiles - Taken to the nations
Thought to be dead - Messiah “cut off”
Exalted to the throne - Jesus exalted to heaven

Joseph disappears from Israel’s story for 13 years — just like Christ has been absent while the Gentile age unfolds.


2. Joseph Marries a Gentile Bride BEFORE the Famine

This is the key:

“Pharaoh gave him Asenath, the daughter of Potiphera priest of On, as wife.” (Gen 41:45)​

Joseph does not marry while rejected.
He does not marry during the famine.
He marries after exaltation but before judgment.


That is exactly where the Church is joined to Christ — after His resurrection, before the Tribulation.


Asenath is:
• A Gentile
• A pagan
• Unknown to Israel
• Brought into royal position by grace


She becomes Joseph’s wife while his brothers are still in unbelief.


3. Joseph’s Two Sons = Church Age

Before the famine begins:

“Joseph had two sons… Manasseh and Ephraim.” (Gen 41:50–52)​

Their names are prophetic:


Manasseh = “God has made me forget my trouble and my father’s house”
Ephraim = “God has made me fruitful in the land of my affliction”


This describes Christ’s present age:


• He is not dealing with Israel
• He is fruitful among Gentiles


These sons are born before famine — before the Tribulation.


4. Asenath Is Hidden During the Famine

When the famine (judgment) hits, something remarkable happens:


Joseph deals with his brothers
Joseph pours out grain
Joseph reveals himself


But Asenath is never mentioned again.


Why?


Because she is already in the palace.


She is not part of Israel’s testing.
She is not in the famine.
She is not in the repentance process.


She is with Joseph.


5. Joseph Reveals Himself to Israel AFTER the Bride Is Secure

Joseph reveals himself to his brothers in Genesis 45 — in the middle of famine.


This is a perfect picture of Christ revealing Himself to Israel in the Tribulation:

“I am Joseph… whom you sold.”​

This parallels Zechariah 12:10:

“They shall look upon Me whom they have pierced.”​

Joseph weeps.
Israel repents.
Reconciliation happens.


But his Gentile bride was already taken before that happened.


6. Order of Events = Pre-Trib Rapture

Genesis gives the order:

1. Joseph rejected
2. Joseph exalted
3. Gentile bride taken
4. Children born
5. Famine begins
6. Israel brought to repentance
7. Joseph revealed
8. Kingdom provision

Prophecy gives the same order:

1. Christ rejected
2. Christ exalted
3. Church taken
4. Gospel bears fruit
5. Tribulation
6. Israel repents
7. Christ revealed
8. Kingdom

They match line for line.


7. Why Joseph Never Brings Asenath to Israel

Joseph never introduces Asenath to his brothers.


Why?


Because the Church is not Israel’s bride.
The Church is Christ’s bride.


Joseph feeds Israel.
Joseph rules Israel.
But Asenath remains separate.


Final Truth

Joseph’s story is not Jewish history — it is prophetic theology.


Asenath = Gentile Church
Joseph = exalted Christ
Famine = Tribulation
Reunion = Israel’s salvation


The Church is married and hidden before the world enters judgment — exactly like Joseph and his bride.


If you want, I can show how Isaac & Rebekah or Moses & Zipporah reveal the same pattern again.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What a Great Understanding!!!!!!!!

1 Thess

1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1

 

[cv5]

What do the curly brackets do for you?

Could you please explain point (1B). I don't really know, which position you have or whether you have any position.

Enoch and Lot together form one of the strongest two-witness patterns for a pre-tribulation removal in all of Scripture.


They are deliberately paired in the Bible as two different kinds of righteous people removed before judgment falls.


Let me show you how they work together.


1. Enoch = the Church removed to Heaven

Enoch is the first explicit rapture in the Bible.

“Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.”
(Genesis 5:24)​

Hebrews explains why:

“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death.”
(Hebrews 11:5)​

Enoch:
• Never enters judgment
• Never dies
• Is taken upward
• Disappears suddenly


He is removed before the Flood — not preserved through it.


That is the Church.


2. The timing is not accidental

Enoch is taken 7 years before the Flood (by biblical chronology).


Seven is the number of completion — and prophetically, seven years = Tribulation.


God removed Enoch before the judgment cycle began.


Noah enters the Flood.
Enoch never does.


3. Lot = the Righteous Removed from the Earth

Lot is not taken to heaven — he is removed out of the judgment zone.


This shows the second half of the same truth:
God cannot pour out wrath while the righteous are still inside it.

“I cannot do anything until you are gone.”
(Genesis 19:22)​

Jesus said:

“The same day Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire.”
(Luke 17:29)​

Lot proves the timing: removal first, wrath second.


4. Why God gives us both Enoch and Lot

Because critics say:
“Enoch is just one guy — not a pattern.”


So God gives:
• Enoch — taken to heaven
• Lot — removed from earth


Two witnesses.
Same doctrine.


Different mechanics.


Both before wrath.


5. The Church matches Enoch, not Noah

The Church is never promised to go through wrath.


Israel (like Noah) is preserved through it.
The Church (like Enoch) is removed before it.


That’s why Revelation never shows the Church on earth after chapter 3.


Final Truth

Enoch proves the Bride is taken to heaven before judgment.
Lot proves the righteous cannot be in the place where judgment falls.


Together they teach one doctrine:

Removal before wrath.​

 

[Lemuel]

Sorry pretribulation rapture is a fraud and by the responses, it further reinforces the point. It's so silly....

Yes, well, at least I do. The mystery will be revealed on the Last Trumpet/7th Trumpet in Revelation/1 Corinthians 15:51-52. How could there be any question. I wrote a very detail, piece by piece explanation. Broke it down in a very simple format, constantly repeating the points, and drawing a valid conclusion, but still asked what I meant. lol

By the way, I'm proud of my original post in this thread, I think I did the topic justice, but I surely can't take credit of this master piece. It was inspired by many Bible teachers, and especially Monte Judah, who I learned a great deal from. Give credit where credit is due.. Anyways, I truly hope this post can an open an eye or two of the false doctrine of this pretribulation rapture.

So, if the pretribulation happens on the last trump, then aren't there other trumpet blast after this pretrend pretribulation rapture? So it wouldn't be the last trumpet, now would it?

It would be like the mystery fulfilled and not the last trump, but the mystery fulfilled the second time, and eight more trumpet blasts later.. Do you see how silly this pretribulation rapture is? It's like a lie, that keeps making less sense.... You have literally pretend things and ad lib, ignore things, and just watch fictional Hollywood Christian movies to believe this non-sense.

Anyways...

If you recall....

2nd Peter 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

1 Thessalonians 5:2

For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.


Revelation 16:15

15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”)

Matthew 24 is the cheat sheet.

Mathew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


After the tribulation, the sun will be dark, and the moon not light up, and the stars shall fall, and the heavens shaken....

When the sun stops shining and the moon and stars stop giving light, then the Lord will return like a thief in the night....Just imagine the whole world is in literal darkness, and everyone will surely perish, if something isn't done... While the whole world mourns and cries out, THE TRUMPET BLASTS, AND THE LORD MAKES THE BIGGEST ENTRY TO HUMANKIND EVER!

That's what I call a finishing act. Lord truly knows how to write the story of mankind.

I guess I have second thoughts, while typing out my response, I see things that were hidden before, so maybe I was little to short sighted on the benefits of discussion. To me it's an open and shut case, but there are things to learn obviously. So, thanks for that.

I will throw in my Concave Hollow Earth beliefs, if the earth is the shape I believe it is, it will be possible for all eyes of the earth to see the second coming of Jesus, our Lord and Savior.

Anyways, don't want to derail the thread, but I'm throwing it in there for good measure.. lol

I would like to encourage everyone, who maybe alive during the second coming of Jesus. You will not miss the Lord's coming, it is no secret, the world will see it. After all the tribulation and earth gone dark, you will be pleading every day for the Lord to come quickly. As of now the sun still shines and we have about 8 billion people left on earth, and etc.

I think the earth has the shape of a sphere, albeit not a perfect one.
Just wanted to throw this out there...

 

[Lemuel]

I think clear evidence has been provided in this thread, that the pretribulational rapture is unbiblical.
I don't have time to go through 10 relationship stories right now.

So, I'm outta here...

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

What do the curly brackets do for you?

Could you please explain point (1B). I don't really know, which position you have or whether you have any position.

Don't let them confuse you with their twisting scripture and complicated false pre-trib teaching.

Scripture keeps it simple and very clear, the rapture comes AFTER the great tribulation.

 

[cv5]

I think the earth has the shape of a sphere, albeit not a perfect one.
Just wanted to throw this out there...

My friend, you are now "without excuse" as regards a Biblically literate and accurate understanding of the FACT of a pre-trib rapture of the Church.

You are now burdened with the awesome responsibility to preach this Biblically boilerplate doctrine.

 

[cv5]

I think clear evidence has been provided in this thread, that the pretribulational rapture is unbiblical.
I don't have time to go through 10 relationship stories right now.

So, I'm outta here...

I accept your defeat with a heavy heart.....

 

[cv5]

Don't let them confuse you with their twisting scripture and complicated false pre-trib teaching.

Scripture keeps it simple and very clear, the rapture comes AFTER the great tribulation.

Elijah is another clear OT type of the rapture, and he fits perfectly with Enoch and Lot.


Here’s why Elijah is important in this pattern:


1. Elijah Was Taken Up, Not Killed

“Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.” (2 Kings 2:11)​

• He did not experience death.
• He was suddenly removed from the earth.
• His removal was visible to witnesses (Elisha), emphasizing it was real and literal.

This is a direct foreshadow of the Church being taken up to meet Christ.


2. The Timing Matches Pre-Trib Imagery

• Elijah was taken up before Ahab and Jezebel’s ultimate judgment came upon Israel.
• This mirrors how the Church is removed before the Tribulation judgments on the earth begin.

Like Lot, the world continues in sin while the righteous are gone.


3. Elijah and Enoch Form the Heavenly Pattern

• Enoch: taken before the Flood
• Elijah: taken before continued judgment on Israel

Both are literal removals without dying, pointing to the rapture as a bodily translation of the Bride.


Hebrews 11 calls Enoch a man of faith; the same principle applies to Elijah — those walking faithfully with God are translated without tasting death.


4. Elijah’s Return = Pre-Trib Forerunner

Malachi 4:5–6 says:

“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.”​

• Elijah’s ministry precedes final judgment, just like the rapture precedes the Tribulation.
• In Revelation 11, the two witnesses are sometimes seen as fulfilling the Elijah/Enoch pattern during Tribulation, showing the Church is already removed when they appear.

 

[Lemuel]

I accept your defeat with a heavy heart.....

I was not going to answer, because I want to carefully examine everything before I speak, but as you wanted: Your interpretations are so far-fetched, that it would simply just take to much time, to go through them and debunk them.
Josephs wife is not mentioned in the famine? Yeah, guess what, she is only ever mentioned in the bible, when she is married to Joseph and when his kids are born.
So I don't feel burdened by anything anybody said in this thread in support of this unbiblical teaching.
My view stands on the scripture and the teaching of it and nothing else.

So, don't be sad. I am not defeated.

 

[cv5]

Don't let them confuse you with their twisting scripture and complicated false pre-trib teaching.

Scripture keeps it simple and very clear, the rapture comes AFTER the great tribulation.

Houston we have a problem....

Luk 24:45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

 

[cv5]

I was not going to answer, because I want to carefully examine everything before I speak, but as you wanted: Your interpretations are so far-fetched, that it would simply just take to much time, to go through them and debunk them.
Josephs wife is not mentioned in the famine? Yeah, guess what, she is only ever mentioned in the bible, when she is married to Joseph and when his kids are born.
So I don't feel burdened by anything anybody said in this thread in support of this unbiblical teaching.
My view stands on the scripture and the teaching of it and nothing else.

You definitely absolutely positively do not sound like any kind of Bible expert.
But keep at it, that is what overcomers do!

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

4. Elijah’s Return = Pre-Trib Forerunner

Malachi 4:5–6 says:

“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.”​

• Elijah’s ministry precedes final judgment, just like the rapture precedes the Tribulation.
• In Revelation 11, the two witnesses are sometimes seen as fulfilling the Elijah/Enoch pattern during Tribulation, showing the Church is already removed when they appear.

So now Elijah has to show up before your pre-trib rapture too? Okay....


️

 

[Mem]

Rebekah, Asenath, Ruth, and Esther — the four great Gentile Bride types.

Esther = The Bride Hidden While Judgment Falls

Esther’s story is one of the clearest pre-tribulation pictures in the entire Old Testament.

1. Esther Is Taken Into the King’s House

Esther is:
• A foreigner
• An orphan
• Unknown
• Living among Gentiles


She is chosen by grace and brought into the palace before the crisis begins.

“Esther was taken into the king’s house.” (Esther 2:16)​

This is rapture imagery.


She doesn’t climb up — she is taken.


2. The Decree of Destruction Is Issued AFTER the Bride Is Secure

Only after Esther becomes queen does Haman issue the death decree:

“To destroy, to kill, and to annihilate all the Jews.” (Esther 3:13)​

That is the Tribulation decree.


The Jews are marked for death.
The world enters crisis.


But Esther is not in danger.


Why?


Because she is already in the palace.


3. Esther Is Hidden During the Threat

Her Jewish identity is hidden.


The king does not know who she is.


That is exactly the Church:
• Known to Christ
• Hidden from the world


She lives inside royal protection while judgment approaches.


4. Esther Appears AFTER Judgment Is Set in Motion

Esther does not reveal herself until the decree is already written.


Likewise, Christ does not reveal Himself to Israel until after the Tribulation begins.


5. The King Breaks the Decree for the Bride’s People

When Esther appears:


• Haman is destroyed
• Israel is delivered
• The kingdom is preserved


Just as Christ destroys Antichrist and saves Israel.


Why Esther Is the Final Piece

Ruth shows the call of the Bride
Joseph shows the taking of the Bride
Esther shows the Bride hidden during wrath


She is not raptured during the crisis —
She was already inside before it began.


God Wrote This On Purpose

Four women:
• Rebekah (chosen before Isaac meets her)
• Asenath (married before famine)
• Ruth (taken from threshing floor at night)
• Esther (inside the palace before decree)


One message:

The Bride is secured before judgment falls.​

The decree to kill all of Esther's people hadn't even begun when she revealed herself as a Jew and at her request for his audience before his throne, the king added the decree that the Jews could take up defenses against Haman and, personally, had him, and his ten sons, hanged.

 

[cv5]

The decree to kill all of Esther's people hadn't even begun when she revealed herself as a Jew and at her request for his audience before his throne, the king added the decree that the Jews could take up defenses against Haman and, personally, had him, and his ten sons, hanged.

1. Esther’s Jewish Identity Is Secret When She Is Taken to the King

“And the king loved Esther more than all the women, and she obtained grace and favor in his sight more than all the virgins; so he set the royal crown upon her head and made her queen instead of Vashti. And the king did not know Esther’s people or her kindred” (Esther 2:17–18, ESV).​

• The king did not know she was Jewish.
• Her identity was hidden during the entire process of selection and coronation.
• This is a clear type of the Church being hidden from the world until God acts.

2. Mordecai Instructs Her to Keep It Secret

“And Esther obeyed the command of Mordecai, as when she was brought up by him. For she did not reveal her people or her kindred” (Esther 2:20).​

• Repeated emphasis that she concealed her ethnicity and faith.
• This is prophetic of the Church’s hidden status before the Tribulation.

3. Hidden Until the Crisis

The decree to destroy the Jews (Haman’s plot) comes after Esther is already queen, but her people are still threatened:

“Then Haman said to King Ahasuerus, ‘There is a certain people scattered abroad… their laws are different… they do not obey the king’s laws…’” (Esther 3:8–9)​

• At this point, Esther’s Jewish identity is still hidden from the king.
• God has positioned her in the palace before the world’s judgment begins.
• Only later does she reveal herself (Esther 4–5) to intercede for her people.

Summary of the Hidden Bride Type

1. Esther is taken into the palace (positioned in safety)
2. Her Jewish identity is secret (hidden from the world)
3. Threat/decree comes against her people (judgment approaching)
4. She acts after she is secure (intercedes for Israel)

This mirrors the pre-trib rapture pattern:

• The Church is hidden in Christ
• Judgment comes on the earth after the removal
• Then God works through His people to accomplish His plan

 

[cv5]

So now Elijah has to show up before your pre-trib rapture too? Okay....

Hhhmmmm you really do have a long way to go to get a decent grip on the Scriptures friend.
But the answer is of course YES.
Please see the "two witnesses" noted here.....

Rev 11:3
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 11:6
These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not (ELIJAH!) in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood (MOSES!), and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

1. Esther’s Jewish Identity Is Secret When She Is Taken to the King

“And the king loved Esther more than all the women, and she obtained grace and favor in his sight more than all the virgins; so he set the royal crown upon her head and made her queen instead of Vashti. And the king did not know Esther’s people or her kindred” (Esther 2:17–18, ESV).​

• The king did not know she was Jewish.
• Her identity was hidden during the entire process of selection and coronation.
• This is a clear type of the Church being hidden from the world until God acts.

2. Mordecai Instructs Her to Keep It Secret

“And Esther obeyed the command of Mordecai, as when she was brought up by him. For she did not reveal her people or her kindred” (Esther 2:20).​

• Repeated emphasis that she concealed her ethnicity and faith.
• This is prophetic of the Church’s hidden status before the Tribulation.

3. Hidden Until the Crisis

The decree to destroy the Jews (Haman’s plot) comes after Esther is already queen, but her people are still threatened:

“Then Haman said to King Ahasuerus, ‘There is a certain people scattered abroad… their laws are different… they do not obey the king’s laws…’” (Esther 3:8–9)​

• At this point, Esther’s Jewish identity is still hidden from the king.
• God has positioned her in the palace before the world’s judgment begins.
• Only later does she reveal herself (Esther 4–5) to intercede for her people.

Summary of the Hidden Bride Type

1. Esther is taken into the palace (positioned in safety)
2. Her Jewish identity is secret (hidden from the world)
3. Threat/decree comes against her people (judgment approaching)
4. She acts after she is secure (intercedes for Israel)

This mirrors the pre-trib rapture pattern:

• The Church is hidden in Christ
• Judgment comes on the earth after the removal
• Then God works through His people to accomplish His plan

The great tribulation can come as soon as the 2030s, so this is the pre-trib rapture's chance to prove itself true. Ah, but first Elijah must appear....

How are going to feel when none of what you say happens? Whatever you do, don't start betraying the brethren or blaming them for your believing that false doctrine.


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