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Lemuel
Guest
I don't see a change of subject. Jesus speaks about his return before the parable and he still speaks about it after it. In the whole speech he gives lots of different metaphors concerning his return.
Pre Trib or Post trib rapture?
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I don't see a change of subject. Jesus speaks about his return before the parable and he still speaks about it after it. In the whole speech he gives lots of different metaphors concerning his return.
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Lemuel
Guest
Are all lost people, people who lost their salvation, that is people, who once where saved and then fell away? No, I'm talking about all the lost people, who do not have Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour in their heart.
If this was your question.
But it is also true that we really dont know what happens in the spiritual realm when we take Communion. All we know is that it shows the intent and posture of our heart towards the Lord here in the physical realm.
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Lemuel
Guest
If they are left behind to suffer God's wrath like you said then they will suffer the same fate as unbelievers. SO that means they lose their salvation?
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Lemuel
Guest
Christians are not left behind. That's the point of being saved.
The passage, which speaks about the rapture, that you say is a different topic, clearly references what was said before in verse 31:
Matth 24:31:
And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Who are the elect of God according to for example Ephesians 1?
Why does not God speak plainly it would clear up so much confusion? Why did Jesus not explain plainly that He was in fact God? Why did He not say simply and straight up "I God have come in the form of a human to die as a sacrifice on the cross to redeem you all my friends"? Everyone including the Pharisee's would for sure, would have went ahhh.... now I see YAY!!!
There are so many people out there who read and look at the Word of God in the format of the bible and find everything seems to be in types, pictures and parables and end up just rejecting Him!
It might sound strange but God speaks in a way to both reveal and conceal, so that only those who genuinely want to understand will understand.
Just to be clear and plain, my answer is Yes God is also trying to hide the timing of the rapture from both unbelievers and those who don't fill their lamps up waiting for Him.
Its strange you don't see a difference, if I took a class of 10 children aged 11 who had zero knowledge and zero bias of the subject and asked if there was one or two comings here, they would say two! then they would explain to me why and how they seem to be different and the answer of course is one is known/expected and visible to everyone, and the other is unknown/secret.
I wont go in depth unless you want me to...
but Verse 21-26 is pretty clear that the the subject matter is during the great tribulation and they are warned there will be false Christs, but they are not to believe it for the coming of the son of man will come at the end of the tribulation, so we have the timing given to us, we know the hour of the coming is at the end of the 70th week. Like lightning flashing from the east to the west.Have you seen a thunderstorm where lightning fills the whole sky, where the earth shakes from the thunder, it is pretty cool, anyway it is a very visible experience!
verse 30 then the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven, we all know that a sign is visible and all the tribes of earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power and great glory.
So we are told the hour when the Lord will return to earth, it is not today not tomorrow, not 1 year into the tribulation, not two years into the tribulation, but visibly at the end. I know exactly when He is coming.
Then comes the contradiction, do you know what contradiction means? a statement, situation, or idea that presents opposing or inconsistent elements, meaning two parts cannot both be true or exist together
verse 36 of that day and hour know one knows
verse 37 But as in the days of Noah were, so also will be the coming of the Son of Man, 39: and did not know till the flood came and took them all away.
It is clearly now talking about an unexpected coming one where we do not now the hour an invisible coming.
Two men will be in the field, two on the roof, two grinding, and a taking/snatching away of some so we are instructed to be watchful for an imminent coming and a catching away, also referred by some as the rapture.
verse 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour is the Lord coming.
verse 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Im saying the Lords coming for His bride is imminent who would even say otherwise? verse 48, But if that evil servant says in his heart "My master is delaying his coming"
Anyway there are clearly two different comings presented in Matthew 24 or it is contradicting itself and the wonderful thing is all other scripture supports this view and lines up and explains it even more for us in simple plain language, well to those who can see it anyway.
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Lemuel
Guest
For you to in the middle of your post explain to me, what a contradiction is, as if I'm too stupid to know that, shows that you're being polemical.
There would be absolutaley no need for you to do that, if you were on the side of the truth.
There's no change of topic in the endtime-sermon of Jesus unless you want to force it in there.
Jesus speaks about the coming of the Son of Man and he references it several times and explains it in different pictures.
We have to be careful not to mix it up and make two visits sound like one. If He sends out His Angels to gather His elect (the saints) and then what about this time that He comes and for what reason?!
1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord..../KJV
Youu see? Two trips. At the (pretrib) rapture we meet Jesus in the air.
Then at the 2nd coming He comes to earth to the MT of Olives. You're mixing it up.
So you know when is the rapture? Oh. Scripture says this about it...
Matthew 24:36
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only..../KJV
Matthew 24:
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh..../KJV
So how can the rapture be after the great trib?! Impossible.
Sorry when I reread it, it does come of as condescending
Then explain the contradiction to me, how do I know the hour the Lord will return, which is after the 70th week, to how I do not the hour the Lord is coming? (to catch some away and not others)
When do you think the revealing of thr antichrist ant the beginning of the great tribulation is?
I'm thinking in the 2030s after the EU's elections in 2029.
If a doctrine is not in early church history, that doesnt mean it is false.
Behold I show you a mystery...
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed..../KJV
So, Behold I shew you a mystery means, hey you never heard this before, but that dont mean that it is false! He just happens to be talking about the rapture too. Huh.
Need more? Ok.
First a wee question. Do you believe that He has made us Kings & Priests? I expect so, it's in there. SO in that context:
Proverbs 25:2
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter..../KJV
Does that make sense to you?
Pre-tribulation is false doctrine.. I thought you guys were suppose to be raptured last year or something.
You like mysteries...so let's try to solve it.
So the last trumpet will blast and the mystery will be revealed, right?
Revelation 10:7
When the seventh angel blows his trumpet, God’s mysterious plan will be fulfilled. It will happen just as he announced it to his servants the prophets.”
but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.
-You should look at what happened at all the those preceding trumpet sounds, it sure looks like maybe a tribulation might of happened...hmmm maybe....
Let's look some more....
When will Jesus return??
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
So here we are again, a trumpet will sound (last trump from 1 Corinthians 51-52, see below), dead will be raised, and the elect will be caught up to meet the Lord.
The scripture you used...
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Let's take a quick snapshot of the first 6 trumpets of Revelation, before we hit the seventh.....
Summary of the Plagues from the First 6 Trumpets
The first six trumpets in the Book of Revelation describe a series of plagues that will occur during the Great Tribulation. These plagues are part of a series of judgments from God that warn people to repent and return to faith in Him. Here is a brief overview of the first six trumpets:
- 1st Trumpet: Hail, fire, and blood are thrown to the earth, burning up a third of the trees and green grass.
- 2nd Trumpet: Something like a great mountain burning with fire is thrown into the sea, turning a third of it to blood and killing a third of all marine life and ships.
- 3rd Trumpet: A great flaming star called Wormwood falls from heaven, making a third of all freshwater bitter and poisonous.
- 4th Trumpet: A third of daylight, moonlight, and starlight is taken away, making days and nights significantly darker.
- 5th Trumpet: Locusts/scorpions are released from the bottomless pit to torture people without God’s seal on their foreheads for five months.
- 6th Trumpet: Four bound angels from the Euphrates river are released to command an army of 200 million mounted troops to kill a third of mankind.
What Are The 7 Trumpets In The Bible? - Christian Website
So, as you can see, before we hit the last trumpet in the book of Revelations, all hell brakes loose, or a great tribulation has happened. Good thing the elect don't have to be tortured by the 5th Trumpet! Praise the Lord! That sounds like a very miserable 5 months.
"kinda, you don't get it, I believe in pretribulation, because I seen the left behind series. My mind is made up". "You know who Kirk Cameron is right?"
Maybe there is some scripture, that could possibly summarize everything for us, so we don't get confused, because of this mystery thing. Detective work can be complicated. Well, let's see....
Mathew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mystery solved....
1. So, the book of Matthew confirms the summary, IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION, the sun will darkened.
(See 4th Trumpet in Revelation, it some how matches with Mathew 24:29, 4th Trumpet: A third of daylight, moonlight, and starlight is taken away, making days and nights significantly darker. ).
2. Then they shall the Son of Man be revealed, all the people of the earth will see Jesus!
The big finally.....
3. Then FINALLY a trumpet OR THE LAST TRUMPET will sound (last trumpet, 1 Corinthians 52), after the last trumpet blast, AND THEN THE ELECT WILL BE WITH JESUS FOR ETERNITY....
What proceeds the rapture?
A. 6 trumpets of tribulation
B. Sign of Jesus coming from Heaven
C. The final 7th Trumpet.
Remember, A before B, B before C, and A.B.C before the rapture.
O.k., bonus round....
Maybe the Biblical Holidays can shed some light to the subject matter...
Sure!
We have Yom Kippur, Feast of Trumpets, and Feast of Tabernacles.
Yom Kippur trumpets are sounding and it's a time of being humble/repentance before the Lord.
Feast of Trumpets is the Jewish New Year and a time of blowing trumpets, or shofars.
Feast of Tabernacles symbolizes dwelling with God.
You mean even the Biblical Holidays help solve the mystery?!?!
First is a time of repentance, then Trumpet will sound, and finally God dwells with man...
I hope this helps solve the mystery, if not I don't really want to talk about it. This topic has been discussed at nauseam.
I will just keep this little outline, for the next great pretrib encounter...Doh!
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Undergrace1
Guest
[QUOTE="kinda, post: 5679268, member: 16
Mathew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[/QUOTE]
Caused by an abomination that causes desolation
Mathew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[/QUOTE]
Caused by an abomination that causes desolation
"Why does not God speak plainly it would clear up so much confusion?"
He does. The rapture is ENCODED intentionally into the Hebrew wedding protocol.
See steps #7 and #8.
Only after the rapture does the Second Coming FOR ISRAEL occur, and only after the nation goes thru
the GT, and in their distress call upon Him to deliver them from certain destruction by the anti-Christ
and his armies.
[Hos 5:14-15 KJV]
14 For I [will be] unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, [even] I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue [him].
15 I will go [and] return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.
[Hos 6:1-2 KJV]
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After ***two days*** will he revive us: in the ***third day*** he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
[Zec 12:9-10 KJV]
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
[Jer 30:7-11 KJV]
7 Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, [that] I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make [him] afraid.
11 For I [am] with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
[Mat 23:37-39 KJV]
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
[Dan 12:1 KJV] 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
****************************************************************************************
The 12-Step Hebrew Wedding Pattern
1) The Bride Is Chosen by the Father
In ancient Israel, the father of the groom chose the bride.
Spiritual meaning
God the Father chose the Church for His Son before the world began.
“You did not choose Me, but I chose you…” — John 15:16
“He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world…” — Ephesians 1:4
“He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world…” — Ephesians 1:4
2) The Bride Price Is Paid
The groom paid a mohar (bride price) to redeem the bride.
Spiritual meaning
Jesus paid the price with His blood.
“You were bought with a price.” — 1 Corinthians 6:20
3) The Marriage Covenant (Betrothal) Is Made
The couple drank from a cup of wine sealing the covenant (kiddushin).
They were legally married — though not yet living together.
Spiritual meaning
The New Covenant was sealed at the Last Supper.
“This cup is the new covenant in My blood.” — Luke 22:20
The Church today is betrothed — not yet living with Christ physically.
4) The Bride Is Set Apart
The bride was now consecrated to her groom alone.
Spiritual meaning
The Church is sanctified — set apart for Christ.
“I betrothed you to one husband… Christ.” — 2 Corinthians 11:2
5) The Groom Leaves to Prepare a Place
The groom returned to his father’s house to build a bridal chamber.
He could not return until his father approved the place.
Spiritual meaning
Jesus ascended to Heaven to prepare our dwelling.
“I go to prepare a place for you.” — John 14:2
6) The Bride Waits — Not Knowing the Day or Hour
Only the father decided when the groom could go get his bride.
The bride lived in expectation — always ready.
Spiritual meaning
No one knows when Christ will return.
“No one knows the day or hour…” — Matthew 24:36
7) The Groom Comes With a Shout and a Trumpet
When the father approved, the groom went to fetch the bride.
He came at night with:
• a shout
• a trumpet blast
• a procession
Spiritual meaning
This is the rapture signal.
“The Lord Himself will descend with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God…” — 1 Thessalonians 4:16
8) The Bride Is Taken Away (This Is the Rapture)
The bride was lifted up and carried away to the groom’s house.
She did not walk — she was taken.
Spiritual meaning
The Church is caught up.
“We who are alive… shall be caught up together… to meet the Lord in the air.” — 1 Thessalonians 4:17
This is where Chronister places the rapture — before judgment.
9) The Bride Enters the Bridal Chamber
The couple entered the chuppah (bridal chamber) for about 7 days.
The door was shut.
Spiritual meaning
The Church is in Heaven while Earth goes through the 7-year Tribulation.
“Come… enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you.” — Isaiah 26:20
10) The Marriage Is Consummated
The bride and groom became one.
Spiritual meaning
The Church is permanently united with Christ.
“They are no longer two but one.” — Matthew 19:6
11) The Bride Is Revealed
After the chamber period, the bride appeared publicly.
Spiritual meaning
The Church returns with Christ in glory.
“When Christ appears, you also will appear with Him in glory.” — Colossians 3:4
12) The Marriage Supper
A huge public feast followed.
Spiritual meaning
This is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
“Blessed are those invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” — Revelation 19:9
Why This Is So PowerfulThis wedding model:
- Explains why the Church is removed before judgment
- Matches rapture language exactly
- Explains “no one knows the day or hour”
- Explains the 7-year separation
- Explains why the Church returns with Christ
It is not a metaphor invented later — it is built into Jewish marriage itself, which God designed to be a prophetic blueprint.
"You like mysteries...so let's try to solve it."
No mystery about the rapture whatsoever. Not if you understand what Jesus is saying and doing.
And BTW, the Church is NEVER MENTIONED after Revelation chapter 4....!
Because of course they have been removed before the tribulation every begins.
Rev 3:10
“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
[Mat 26:27-29 NKJV]
27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
29 "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."
Rev 3:10
“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Here we are in heaven now enjoying our 7 year honeymoon union-ed with Christ, with robes, crowns and thrones.
Rev 4:4
Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns[fn] of gold on their heads.
Rev 4:10
the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
Rev 4:11
“You are worthy, O Lord,[fn]
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist[fn] and were created.”