Could you imagine standing in front of God and saying “look God, I did it. I’m perfect just like You.”?
Saving Faith in Christ is not Faith Alone in Christ
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Speaking of one that believes their works are good enough to save them. I can’t imagine the ego it must take.
What? That Faith Alone justification is with sinning, or not with sinning? There is no in-between doing good or evil with God.
1Jo 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
We are either doing good or evil, not both at the same time. Although the double hearted can do both good and evil at different times.
I see. You mean your alternative teaching for Faith Alone. First, it's not an answer to the challenge:
"When anyone says that their Faith Alone justifies them with Christ, even while doing evil, then I'll at least acknowledge their honesty, if not their delusion."
And so, I'm still waiting for someone to simply say yes or no, or even "We cannot tell..."
Thanks for giving your own form of Faith Alone. Let's look at it:
The opposing is equally true: Faith with evil works is Satan with Us.
And finally, There is no Faith with God alone without works, because God and His faith are never alone, and always doing good:
Jhn 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Luk 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.
It's not possible to be with God and do nothing. And so, It's not possible to have any faith with God, without doing anything, being alone and dead without God.
And so, it's not possible to be justified with God without works. Good works.
3 John{1:11}
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that is doing good is of God: but he that is doing evil hath not seen God.
Only babes in the womb are doing nothing, without works:
Rom 9:9
And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
This also isn't possible. Even as our faith cannot stand alone without works, neither can our salvation stand alone without us. No one is saved without being a participant in our salvation.
Even as there is no salvation apart from our works, there also is no salvation of our soul apart from our life. Both the soul and the life are one.
And of course, our participating contribution is first commanded, in order to receive God's saving faith: Repentance from dead works.
Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Cor 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:
Even as there is no saving faith alone without works, so also is there no faith toward God, nor salvation of God, without repentance from sins and trespasses. We do our own repenting of our own sins and trespasses.
Jesus died for us, but He cannot repent for us, since He has never done any evil to repent of.
Which is why all Faith Alone believers, also reject only doing good, but also doing evil works. Why? Well, because they have never repented of their transgressions at all, or only in part:
Ezek 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Jerem 3:10
And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
Faith Alone salvation is only for the half-hearted doers of the word of faith, that do not repent with a whole heart. Which is why they also believe the double heartedness of Romans 7, is their Christ's instruction manual for life.
Now this is very good. Well done. I would also say, Faith with Works is God with Us. Being only good works, of course. And, Faith without works is God without Us.
The opposing is equally true: Faith with evil works is Satan with Us.
And finally, There is no Faith with God alone without works, because God and His faith are never alone, and always doing good:
Jhn 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Luk 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.
It's not possible to be with God and do nothing. And so, It's not possible to have any faith with God, without doing anything, being alone and dead without God.
And so, it's not possible to be justified with God without works. Good works.
3 John{1:11}
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that is doing good is of God: but he that is doing evil hath not seen God.
Only babes in the womb are doing nothing, without works:
Rom 9:9
And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
This also isn't possible. Even as our faith cannot stand alone without works, neither can our salvation stand alone without us. No one is saved without being a participant in our salvation.
Even as there is no salvation apart from our works, there also is no salvation of our soul apart from our life. Both the soul and the life are one.
And of course, our participating contribution is first commanded, in order to receive God's saving faith: Repentance from dead works.
Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Cor 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:
Even as there is no saving faith alone without works, so also is there no faith toward God, nor salvation of God, without repentance from sins and trespasses. We do our own repenting of our own sins and trespasses.
Jesus died for us, but He cannot repent for us, since He has never done any evil to repent of.
Which is why all Faith Alone believers, also reject only doing good, but also doing evil works. Why? Well, because they have never repented of their transgressions at all, or only in part:
Ezek 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Jerem 3:10
And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
Faith Alone salvation is only for the half-hearted doers of the word of faith, that do not repent with a whole heart. Which is why they also believe the double heartedness of Romans 7, is their Christ's instruction manual for life.
If this is your specific alteration to Faith Alone, then it's not half bad, but also only half good. And I believe I understand what you mean, but first it's heresy to standard Faith Alone doctrine:
Standard Faith Alone without works, is never dead without works. Their Faith Alone is always alive to save. They either reject James 2 outright, or try to change the faith in James 2 from God's salvation, to another faith that only justifies the believer with men on earth.
The standard Faith Alone is not only without works when saved, but also apart from any works while saved. It's called 'Faith Alone standing Alone', apart from whatever the believer may be doing.
Their Faith Alone saved to begin with, and saves the same way unto the end apart from works. It's the classic unconditionally and eternally saved by having Faith Alone: OSAS.
That said, let's look at this in detail.
1. You are saying that the Faith Alone to begin with, was not 'really' Faith Alone at all, if not with works following? That cannot be true, since it was Faith Alone without works to begin with. Else, Faith Alone is no more Alone.
2. You are saying that the Faith Alone that saves to begin with is alive, but becomes dead without works following? That the beginning Faith Alone, must become faith with works? Heresy again, since the standard is, that only Faith Alone without works saves, not any faith with works.
3. You are agreeing with the standard Faith Alone without works only saves, and if without works following, that Faith Alone still saves as at the beginning. But, the faith with works does not 'do' the saving?
And yet again, without works following, that Faith Alone is become dead and so did not save in the beginning. It's not possible for Faith Alone without works to save, and then not save without works following.
The question becomes, why all the confusion by inserting 'Alone' in the beginning? If it's no more 'real' faith 'Alone' without works following? Why not just say what Scripture says, Faith without works following is a dead faith and not a saving faith to begin with.
Is it some sort of ideological demand to say Faith 'Alone', rather than Faith? I do know that I've never heard the standard Faith Alone doctrine, ever speaking of saving faith without it being Alone without works.
In any case, Scripturally, it's not possible to ever have Faith Alone, that is not dead faith. Faith Alone is never alive with God, and so can never save the man.
James{2:14}
What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?...Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Faith Alone is dead, not alive to begin with, nor dying without works. The dead don't die. "Faith Alone without works is a dead faith to begin with."
It's not the living faith of God, that is sown in the heart. It's a dead faith sown by another:
Mat 13:24
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
And so, we see that God's faith is only good seed, and is never dead nor dies.
Mat 13:25
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
He said unto them, An enemy hath done this.
And, we also see that bad seed is sown by the enemy of God.
I've considered this before, that as with all natural things, you are saying seed alone is sown without any roots. But without produce following, that seed was dead, when sown alone?
1. No seed of God is dead. It's the good word of faith toward God when sown. Therefore, the seed of God is never sown 'alone'.
2. For dead seed to be sown, it must be of dead faith, that is not sown by the Son of man, but only by His enemy the devil. Only a gospel of Faith Alone without works, can sow dead seed in the heart.
3. As with nature, so with God: No seed is ever 'alone', because the substance of the seed is the roots thereof, whether good and holy, or bad and ungodly:
Rom 11:16
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
For a seed not to produce, it's not the seed, but the ground sown in: Whether on the way side, or in stony ground, among thorns, or in the good ground.
And, I've also considered this before, and is part good and bad:
Faith Alone without works, is never Faith Alone with works, else it's not Faith Alone. Therefore, God's saving Faith Alone is always without works of man, and only with works of God.
Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
1Co 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
1. It carries the Scriptures too far, as though the servant of God does not do the works at all. Which is not only hyper-spiritual, but also rejects God's judgment of our works, that we do in our bodies:
2Co 5:9
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
The works that we do, are judged good through God, or bad through the devil:
1 John{2:29}
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that is doing righteousness is born of him.
1Jo 3:8
He that is committing sin is of the devil; for the devil is sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
True.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, that any man should boast.
Titus{3:4}
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Salvation is of God alone, which is why Faith plus works is incorrect.Thanks for giving your own form of Faith Alone. Let's look at it:
Now this is very good. Well done. I would also say, Faith with Works is God with Us. Being only good works, of course. And, Faith without works is God without Us.
The opposing is equally true: Faith with evil works is Satan with Us.
And finally, There is no Faith with God alone without works, because God and His faith are never alone, and always doing good:
Jhn 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Luk 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.
It's not possible to be with God and do nothing. And so, It's not possible to have any faith with God, without doing anything, being alone and dead without God.
And so, it's not possible to be justified with God without works. Good works.
3 John{1:11}
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that is doing good is of God: but he that is doing evil hath not seen God.
Only babes in the womb are doing nothing, without works:
Rom 9:9
And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
This also isn't possible. Even as our faith cannot stand alone without works, neither can our salvation stand alone without us. No one is saved without being a participant in our salvation.
Even as there is no salvation apart from our works, there also is no salvation of our soul apart from our life. Both the soul and the life are one.
And of course, our participating contribution is first commanded, in order to receive God's saving faith: Repentance from dead works.
Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Cor 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:
Even as there is no saving faith alone without works, so also is there no faith toward God, nor salvation of God, without repentance from sins and trespasses. We do our own repenting of our own sins and trespasses.
Jesus died for us, but He cannot repent for us, since He has never done any evil to repent of.
Which is why all Faith Alone believers, also reject only doing good, but also doing evil works. Why? Well, because they have never repented of their transgressions at all, or only in part:
Ezek 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Jerem 3:10
And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
Faith Alone salvation is only for the half-hearted doers of the word of faith, that do not repent with a whole heart. Which is why they also believe the double heartedness of Romans 7, is their Christ's instruction manual for life.
NightTwister said:
Faith + Works is God + Us.
Now I see what you mean. Which is why by Scripture, I would say Faith with Works is God with us.
Mat 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Salvation is with God, but salvation is not without man. Faith minus Works is God minus Us.
Jhn 3:30
He must increase, but I must decrease.
The Baptist doesn't say I must not exist. Or, I must have no part with Him.
No one saved and born into the body of Christ, has no participation with Him in our salvation:
Rom 12:5
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another...For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Phl 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
And of course, anyone doing evil has no part in the salvation and body of Christ.
"When anyone says that their Faith Alone justifies them with Christ, even while doing evil, then I'll at least acknowledge their honesty, if not their delusion."
If any one by Faith Alone says yes, then they are at least honest. If they don't want to say it, then they may still have conviction of the Spirit of grace, to repent of all their evil works by their own Faith Alone.
Repentance is both of evil works and bad faith.
James{2:21}
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? ...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only
As in this case, I always respond by Scripture to any point made by others. Not only out of respect, but also by love of learning, quoting, and teaching Scripture in response.
Also as in this case, Faith Aloners rarely return the respect by addressing points made by others. Instead just move on to another usual Faith Alone opinion against Scripture. But, so long as any point is made, then I'm all to glad to answer by Scripture of the Bible.
"When anyone says that their Faith Alone justifies them with Christ, even while doing evil, then I'll at least acknowledge their honesty, if not their delusion."
That is a very diplomatic way of saying of stating that he is a nutjob. I should take notes.