The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

[Inquisitor]

Faith and works can not be seperated.

That is the line that matters.

Here is what you stated.

Faith and works can not be seperated.

That is the formal statement of heresy!

Does AI agree with the Inquisitor?

Scripture only

Yes.
The statement that salvation results from faith plus works is false according to the apostolic teaching.

Ephesians 2:8–9​

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;​

not from works, so that no one may boast.”​

​

Romans 11:6​

“But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.”​

​

Romans 4:5​

“But to the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.”​

​

Galatians 2:21​

“I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.”​

​

Titus 3:5​

“He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his mercy…”​

​

2 Timothy 1:9​

“Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace…”​

​

Isaiah 64:6​

“All our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.”​

​

Romans 3:10–12​

“None is righteous, no, not one… no one does good, not even one.”​

​

Apostolic distinction

Justification / Salvation​

by grace alone​

through faith alone​

apart from works​

Works​

follow salvation​

never produce it​

John 1:12–13​

“Who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”​

1 Corinthians 1:30–31​

“By his doing you are in Christ Jesus…​

so that, as it is written, ‘Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.’”​

Scriptural verdict
To say salvation is the result of faith plus works contradicts grace, nullifies the cross, and denies the gift nature of salvation.

Galatians 3:3​

“Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”​

Salvation is given, not achieved.
Faith receives it.
Works never earn it.

 

[TMS]

The Jews could only be justified before God by keeping the Law, but he or she has to be 100% perfect, which is impossible. A person can’t fail even once, not ever. But all have failed (Romans 3:23; 6:23) and that is why man is justified before God by faith and not by works of the law. (Philippians 3:9)

Justified by faith alone... we both agree

But not everyone is saved.
Not all that proclaim the name of Jesus.
Not all that think they are saved will be.


Mat 7:19-21
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Notice the WORKS, good fruit. He that does the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom..
By their fruit you will know them.
Doing the sayings of Jesus is wise.

It's about faith but a real faith that has fruits and follows God's will.
Faith without works is dead.

 

[Inquisitor]

Justified by faith alone... we both agree

But not everyone is saved.
Not all that proclaim the name of Jesus.
Not all that think they are saved will be.


Mat 7:19-21
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Notice the WORKS, good fruit. He that does the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom..
By their fruit you will know them.
Doing the sayings of Jesus is wise.

It's about faith but a real faith that has fruits and follows God's will.
Faith without works is dead.

Your still at it.

Here is what you stated.

Faith and works can not be seperated.

Faith without works is dead.

When will you understand the fundamental doctrine of Christianity?

Salvation is a free gift given to those that believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Do you understand the galactic difference between your pathetic works and the glory of
Jesus Christ in His atonement. We are saved by that atonement Jesus freely granted to us.
Not because of something you ever did.

How long will it take before you realize what the grace of God means?

How long before you understand that you had no part to play in your own salvation?

We boast not in Jesus plus our legal works.

We boast in the Christ and Christ alone.

Faith and works can not be seperated?

Sorry, never mention your works again when speaking about Jesus or that free gift of salvation.

 

[NightTwister]

Justified by faith alone... we both agree

But not everyone is saved.
Not all that proclaim the name of Jesus.
Not all that think they are saved will be.


Mat 7:19-21
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Notice the WORKS, good fruit. He that does the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom..
By their fruit you will know them.
Doing the sayings of Jesus is wise.

It's about faith but a real faith that has fruits and follows God's will.
Faith without works is dead.

Jesus did it all, then we have to do all the rest. I guess that makes sense to some.

 

[mailmandan]

No.. only Jesus has sufficiently obeyed the righteous standards. That's why we need salvation. We can't save ourselves..

Only Jesus indeed. (2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 2:22) Mankind has failed and has fallen short and needs a Savior. (Romans 3:23; 6:23)

God is judge, not any person but the Bible clearly states "keep God's commandments". Ps 119:115, Matt 19:17, John 14:15,21, 1 John 2:3, Rev 14:12..

"Keep" does not mean perfectly obey and don't conflate the old and new covenants.

Not because you aim to earn salvation but because you love Jesus.

Many people seek to merit salvation based on works at least in part. We love God because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19) The love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5)

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Old Testament, under the old covenant of law. You and your SDA friends relentlessly quote "keep the commandments" as if that's the gospel of salvation.

It isn't just the 4th commandment. But the devil knows ... Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Everyone is guilty. (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23)

The 4th or Sabbath commandment is the one people don't want to remember.

Who did God tell to remember in Exodus 20:8? The Israelites. Verse 2 - I am the Lord your God, who brought YOU out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Deuteronomy 5:15 - And remember that YOU were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded YOU to keep the Sabbath day.

It's the one that people are quick to make excuses for not keeping. The other 9 isn't an issue for m ost people. But they are all important.

NT believers are not OT Israelites living under the law. (Exodus 31:14-17; 35:1-3; Numbers 15:32-36)

Faith and works can not be seperated.
True faith will result in works.

Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate, there is no root. True faith does result in works and all believers are fruitful yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

The problem in Christian theology for many is the doctrine of cheap grace. The doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which Jesus hates, Rev 2:6, 15, was all about cheap grace, they taught that people can do as they please, (sin), and as long as they believe in Jesus they are saved.

Heretical groups who practice sin do not believe in Jesus unto salvation. Jesus commended the church in Ephesus for hating their deeds. The main problem I see in professing Christianity is the doctrine of salvation by works/works righteousness.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

 

[mailmandan]

Justified by faith alone... we both agree

You say you agree with justification by faith alone but you are quick to mention works.

But not everyone is saved.
Not all that proclaim the name of Jesus.
Not all that think they are saved will be.

True.

Mat 7:19-21
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

In context, Jesus is discussing false prophets. Verse 15 - Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. Jesus is also contrasting genuine believers with make believers. A good tree bears good fruit but a bad tree bears bad fruit. In Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as some would suppose.

Notice the WORKS, good fruit. He that does the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom..
By their fruit you will know them.
Doing the sayings of Jesus is wise.

The will of the Father that is unto salvation is believing in Jesus for salvation. (John 6:40) There is a difference between doing Gods will in order to become saved (John 6:40) AND doing God's will after we have been saved. (1 Thessalonians 5:14-18)

It's about faith but a real faith that has fruits and follows God's will.
Faith without works is dead.

Seeking salvation by works is not following God's will. (Matthew 7:21-23) It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[TMS]

Well as you transgress the TC, will you not inherit eternal life? Or does that only apply to others?

Salvation is a free gift. You can not earn it.
I quoted verses that Jesus Paul and John wrote. Showing that those that love Jesus KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.

 

[TMS]

That is the line that matters.

Here is what you stated.

Faith and works can not be seperated.

That is the formal statement of heresy!

Does AI agree with the Inquisitor?

Scripture only

Yes.
The statement that salvation results from faith plus works is false according to the apostolic teaching.

Ephesians 2:8–9​

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;​

not from works, so that no one may boast.”​

​

Romans 11:6​

“But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.”​

​

Romans 4:5​

“But to the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.”​

​

Galatians 2:21​

“I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.”​

​

Titus 3:5​

“He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his mercy…”​

​

2 Timothy 1:9​

“Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace…”​

​

Isaiah 64:6​

“All our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.”​

​

Romans 3:10–12​

“None is righteous, no, not one… no one does good, not even one.”​

​

Apostolic distinction

Justification / Salvation​

by grace alone​

through faith alone​

apart from works​

Works​

follow salvation​

never produce it​

John 1:12–13​

“Who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”​

1 Corinthians 1:30–31​

“By his doing you are in Christ Jesus…​

so that, as it is written, ‘Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.’”​

Scriptural verdict
To say salvation is the result of faith plus works contradicts grace, nullifies the cross, and denies the gift nature of salvation.

Galatians 3:3​

“Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”​

Salvation is given, not achieved.
Faith receives it.
Works never earn it.

I said that in my posts, I've been very clear that our works do not save us. Faith in Jesus alone saves.. But I don't want to use this as an excuse to sin.

Jesus said ... Mat 7:16-18 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

If you really love your Lord and saviour it will be seen.

True faith results in works.

 

[Inquisitor]

Salvation is a free gift. You can not earn it.
I quoted verses that Jesus Paul and John wrote. Showing that those that love Jesus KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.

Where are the following commandments in the ten commandments?

1 John 3:23
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

John 15:12
This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

1 Corinthians 14:37
If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment.

1 Timothy 6:14
That you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thessalonians 4:2-3
For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God,
your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality.

Paul never mentions the sabbath in his letters except once in Colossians, and that concerns not letting
someone judge you regarding a sabbath day.

Paul writes about everything but the sabbath and why is that?

 

[Inquisitor]

I said that in my posts, I've been very clear that our works do not save us. Faith in Jesus alone saves.. But I don't want to use this as an excuse to sin.

Jesus said ... Mat 7:16-18 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

If you really love your Lord and saviour it will be seen.

True faith results in works.

Ultimately, your fruit will be seen in that love for your brethren.

God is love and the penultimate commandment is that deep love (in the Spirit) for even your enemies.

 

[Inquisitor]

I said that in my posts, I've been very clear that our works do not save us. Faith in Jesus alone saves.. But I don't want to use this as an excuse to sin.

Jesus said ... Mat 7:16-18 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

If you really love your Lord and saviour it will be seen.

True faith results in works.

But faith and works are not joined at the hip.

 

[TMS]

Your still at it.

Here is what you stated.

Faith and works can not be seperated.

Faith without works is dead.

When will you understand the fundamental doctrine of Christianity?

Salvation is a free gift given to those that believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Do you understand the galactic difference between your pathetic works and the glory of
Jesus Christ in His atonement. We are saved by that atonement Jesus freely granted to us.
Not because of something you ever did.

How long will it take before you realize what the grace of God means?

How long before you understand that you had no part to play in your own salvation?

We boast not in Jesus plus our legal works.

We boast in the Christ and Christ alone.

Faith and works can not be seperated?

Sorry, never mention your works again when speaking about Jesus or that free gift of salvation.

My works do nothing to earn salvation. But Jesus does not want us to do nothing.
We should be growing closer to Jesus each day. Aiming to be more like the perfect standard of righteousness, Jesus Christ.

Abels faith was tested
Noahs faith was tested
Abraham's faith was tested.
Moses's faith was tested.
And all the other witnesses we have as examples, Heb 11.

Heb 12:1-2
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Let us run the race..

If our faith is going to be tested, will it be able to withstand the trials.
If it's all about us doing nothing our faith will not grow.

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

All of the examples given in Heb 11 had works and actions and choices that reflected the faith in their hearts.

 

[TMS]

Ultimately, your fruit will be seen in that love for your brethren.

God is love and the penultimate commandment is that deep love (in the Spirit) for even your enemies.

I agree the fruits will be seen naturally because you love your neighbour as yourself.
But your fruit will be seen in your love for God too.

I keep the sabbath because I love God.

It isn't to earn salvation it is love for God.

Mat 22:37-38
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Can you see how faith and works can not be seperated. Because you love God.

 

[Undergrace1]

Salvation is a free gift. You can not earn it.
I quoted verses that Jesus Paul and John wrote. Showing that those that love Jesus KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.

Yes you quoted these from the NT:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I quote:
Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 1John3:22&23

I mean, you dont keep the TC do you, you transgress them. Why not admit that?
When Jesus says if you love me obey my commandments he is referring to the commands he is teaching the people, the ones you never mention!
And Paul says the TC are the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation

 

[Undergrace1]

So how do we obey Jesus commands:
Carry each others burdens(love them) and so fulfil the law of Christ Gal6:2
Jesus commands are mainly examples of loving others, hence Paul’s words.
If you love someone enough you will lend to them without expecting anything back
If you love someone enough, you will happily carry a heavy load of theirs not one mile but two
If you loved your enemies enough, you would offer them more than what they stole from you
If you loved the poor, blind, lame and beggars enough, you would invite them home for a meal, rather than friends and family etc
What commands did John not consider burdensome?
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1John3:22&23

The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Gal5:6
The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Rom13:9&10
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another John13:34

 

[Qt]

If one reads Romans 2:6-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works.

No, one would understand that we will be judged by our works, like it says. Take not to the future tense being applied and the judgement by Jesus Christ according to the Gospel.

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[Qt]

for things those who insist you must obey the TC would lightly dismiss. And, I speak of what I have witnessed in four decades

Your stated opinion of others is noted.
But that is all it is and it is rather pointless to bring it up.

 

[Undergrace1]

Your stated opinion of others is noted.
But that is all it is and it is rather pointless to bring it up.

It is opinion based on facts, what I actually witnessed

 

[mailmandan]

No, one would understand that we will be judged by our works, like it says. Take not to the future tense being applied and the judgement by Jesus Christ according to the Gospel.

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

I already covered this in post #3,066. Are you seeking justification by the law? (Galatians 2:16) Paul's argument in regard to judgment highlights that God will judge the hidden, internal secrets of all people through Jesus Christ. Whether Jew or Gentile, with or without the law, we are shown to be righteous at the judgment based on our deeds, yet only in Jesus Christ, by grace and through faith, (Ephesians 2:8,9) will anyone be accounted as righteous and given eternal life. (Romans 4:2-6)

 

[mailmandan]

But faith and works are not joined at the hip.

Where people cross the line is where they basically teach that faith "is" obedience/works. Roman Catholics for example teach that faith is not simply believing but includes works and that we are saved by faith "infused" with works and then those works become meretorious towards receiving salvation. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith (James 2:14-26) but not the very essence of faith and also, not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)