The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

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Second false move:
“The Mosaic law of rite, ritual and ceremony could faultlessly be obeyed, even by the worst of sinners.”

That statement directly contradicts Jesus.

Jesus said, “Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These defile a man” (Matthew 15:19–20).
.
Well firstly:

as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless. Phil3:6
In the niv 1984 edition it says:
As for legalistic righteousness faultless
So, was Paul, when he was the worst of sinners claiming he could faultlessly obey the entire law and not sin?
No! Because he could not obey the TC(Rom7:7-11)
Obeying the mosaic, non moral law was not a problem for the Pharisees either, it only concerned cleaning the outside of the cup!
And what do you think Matt15:19&20 concerns? It concerns moral law, not the Mosaic law of rite, ritual and ceremony
I am not going over anymore of your errors
 
Really? So the NIV 1984 edition is full of inaccuracies?
In that version works of the law are written as observing the law. So you understand better than the translators of that edition?
You do not understand Paul's message. You cannot be justified before God by obeying the law for it would require perfect obedience of it(Gal3:10&11)
The only reason Paul keeps insisting you cannot be justified by works of the law/observing the law is because of the moral law, mainly the TC.
I will repeat, the non moral law/mosaic law could faultlessly be obeyed
One of us is incredibly confused, that's for sure
the bible no , you are full of inaccuracies and changing the subject again to deflect , please stop peddling your false personal doctrines
 
Well firstly:

as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless. Phil3:6
In the niv 1984 edition it says:
As for legalistic righteousness faultless
So, was Paul, when he was the worst of sinners claiming he could faultlessly obey the entire law and not sin?
No! Because he could not obey the TC(Rom7:7-11)
Obeying the mosaic, non moral law was not a problem for the Pharisees either, it only concerned cleaning the outside of the cup!
And what do you think Matt15:19&20 concerns? It concerns moral law, not the Mosaic law of rite, ritual and ceremony
I am not going over anymore of your errors

your general understanding: of the bible -5/10

your twisting of scripture: 10/10

please stop bothering me.
 
your general understanding: of the bible -5/10

your twisting of scripture: 10/10

please stop bothering me.
Oh I twisted nothing. Paul said as a pharisee he was faultless concerning the law. Did he mean the entire law? Did the worst of sinners live a sinless life? No! He was only faultless concerning the mosaic law of rite, ritual and ceremony, he said he could not obey the moral law of the TC!!
And, concerning Jesus words you quoted to support your errant views, they concerned the moral, not Mosaic law
 
the bible no , you are full of inaccuracies and changing the subject again to deflect , please stop peddling your false personal doctrines
Where's the inaccuracies in the post you are responding to? I didn't change the subject at all, I simply responded to your claiming I had errant views
The NIV 1984 edition uses the words observing the law instead of works of the law, you can check it out
Gal3:10&11:
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to DO EVERYTHING WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”
No inaccuracy at all!
As Saul and the pharisees, as Jesus testified to cleaned the outside of the cup they faultlessly obeyed the non moral/Mosaic law of rite, ritual and ceremony, however, Jesus said they were full of wickedness, hypocrisy and everything unclean on the inside. Moral law again!
No inaccuracies on my part at all!
 
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the bible no , you are full of inaccuracies and changing the subject again to deflect , please stop peddling your false personal doctrines
I will leave you with this, it truly is frightening how casually you people who insist the TC must be obeyed are prepared to transgress what is written in those commands, it really is, try and remember the ninth one
 
I will leave you with this, it truly is frightening how casually you people who insist the TC must be obeyed are prepared to transgress what is written in those commands, it really is, try and remember the ninth one
Jesus insists they must be kept!

If ye love me, keep my commandments. (john 14:15)
If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (mat 19:17)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my word, he shall never see death.(John 8:51)
 
Jesus insists they must be kept!

If ye love me, keep my commandments. (john 14:15)
If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (mat 19:17)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my word, he shall never see death.(John 8:51)
Obviously refers to the commands Christ is teaching the people. All includes the ninth one-right?
 
God Loves to see us overcoming, to have victory and to obey Him. He provides the means we make the choice.
Sin = death and suffering, and God does not want us to suffer and die.

1Co 15:56-58
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

We must have a different belief about what it means to love the Lord.

You quoted the following verse.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus has conquered sin and death.

We have overcome, we are victorious, are saved, already perfect, through our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
all ten ! read your bible, jesus spoke many times of the 4th and how to follow it properly
I could say that you concerning works of the law meaning observing the law!
And the fact the Mosaic law could faultlessly be obeyed!
Jesus lived under the Old Covenant and was faithful to it.
Read your bible with discernment!
Paul lived under the new covenant:
Rom14:5&Col2:16
 
all ten ! read your bible, jesus spoke many times of the 4th and how to follow it properly

Jesus was under the law of Moses and Jesus was talking to those under the law of Moses.

Paul never mentions the sabbath because Paul was speaking to the Gentiles.

The Gentiles were never under the law of Moses and the Gentiles were not in covenant,
to obey the law of Moses.

Horses for courses.
 
Hi Inquisitor,
When Paul says “works of the Law” in Romans 3, he is not talking about doing good in general. He is talking about specific actions required by the Law of Moses that marked someone as Jewish and placed them under that covenant.
In simple words, “works of the Law” means doing the legal requirements of Moses’ Law in order to be counted as righteous.
Here is what that looked like in practice.
First, circumcision.
This was the clearest example. A man entered the covenant by being circumcised (Genesis 17). Many believed that without this act, a Gentile could not belong to God’s people.
Second, food laws.
Eating only clean foods and avoiding foods called unclean (Leviticus 11). This separated Jews from Gentiles every day, at every meal.
Third, ritual washings and purity rules.
Washings after contact with certain things, people, or events. These were not moral actions like loving or forgiving, but ritual rules.
Fourth, temple sacrifices and feast observances.
Bringing offerings, keeping the appointed feasts, and following temple rules tied to the priesthood.
These are called “works of the Law” because they are things written in the Law that must be done outwardly, often tied to identity, ritual, and covenant signs.
What they are not.
They are not loving God.
They are not loving your neighbor.
They are not obeying God from the heart.
Jesus made this clear.
Jesus said the greatest commandments are to love God and love your neighbor (Matthew 22:37–40). He said doing God’s will is what matters, not outward rule-keeping (Matthew 7:21). He rebuked people who kept rituals but ignored justice, mercy, and faithfulness (Matthew 23:23).
James, one of the Twelve, explains this plainly.
Faith that does not lead to obedience and right action is dead (James 2). These are works of faith, not “works of the Law.”
So the simple meaning is this.
“Works of the Law” are ritual and covenant requirements of Moses’ Law, like circumcision, food rules, and temple practices, done to claim righteousness or covenant status.
Faith that saves is not empty belief.
It is trusting God and obeying Him from the heart, the way Jesus taught.
That is why God can justify both Jew and Gentile.
Not by ritual markers, but by real faith that listens, follows, and endures.

Romans 3, "the works of the law."

There are two interpretations of this phrase.

1) the entire law of Moses.
2) food laws, sacrifices, offerings, e.t.c.

One interpretation will be correct and the other is a corruption of the text.

I asked AI to read the text (Romans 3) and tell us which interpretation is correct.

Scripture only


Key Text

Romans 3:20
“Because by works of law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.”


“Works of the law” defined by Paul
The law that defines sin

Romans 7:7
“I would not have known sin except through the law; for I would not have known coveting if the law had not said, ‘You shall not covet.’


The law that judges transgression

Romans 2:25
“For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the law; but if you are a transgressor of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.”


The law as a single, whole obligation

Galatians 3:10
“For as many as are of works of law are under a curse; for it is written,
Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to do them.’”


The law as one unit, not divided

James 2:10
“For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, has become guilty of all.”


Law contrasted with faith

Romans 3:27–28
“Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.”


Witnessed by the Law and the Prophets

Romans 3:21
“But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets.”


Conclusion (from Scripture)

  • “Works of the law” refers to doing the law as a whole.
  • The law Paul speaks of includes commandments that define sin, not only ceremonial observances.
  • Paul treats the law as a single, unified covenant, not divided into ceremonial vs moral parts.

Therefore, “works of the law” in Romans 3 refers to the entire Mosaic Law, not merely the ceremonial law.
 
Jesus was under the law of Moses and Jesus was talking to those under the law of Moses.

Paul never mentions the sabbath because Paul was speaking to the Gentiles.

The Gentiles were never under the law of Moses and the Gentiles were not in covenant,
to obey the law of Moses.

Horses for courses.


This is what Scripture says.

First, God Himself wrote the Ten Commandments, not Moses:

“And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.”
Exodus 31:18 KJV

Second, God Himself calls the Ten Commandments “the covenant”:

“And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.”
Deuteronomy 4:13 KJV

Third, God spoke these words directly, wrote them, and added nothing else:

“These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.”
Deuteronomy
5:22 KJV

Fourth, the Ten Commandments were placed inside the ark of the covenant, showing they stand apart:

“And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.”
Deuteronomy 10:5 KJV

Fifth, the rest of the law was written by Moses, not by God’s finger, and was kept beside the ark, not inside it:

“And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.”

Deuteronomy 31:24–26 KJV

The difference is clear and written in Scripture itself.
God wrote the Ten Commandments.
God called them His covenant.
God added no more to them.
Moses wrote the rest.

so, except for 4 items of the law of Moses , the Jerusalem Council decided to give only these four items of the law of Moses to keep as I explained many times on this thread already. it is not about the ten commandments that the 12 teaches and paul sais they were good and just.

Mat 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.

Mat 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,

Mat 28:20 and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

This is not an opinion. This is what Scripture says. How many times must I repeat this?
 
Romans 3, "the works of the law."

There are two interpretations of this phrase.

1) the entire law of Moses.
2) food laws, sacrifices, offerings, e.t.c.

One interpretation will be correct and the other is a corruption of the text.

I asked AI to read the text (Romans 3) and tell us which interpretation is correct.

Scripture only


Key Text

Romans 3:20
“Because by works of law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.”


“Works of the law” defined by Paul
The law that defines sin

Romans 7:7
“I would not have known sin except through the law; for I would not have known coveting if the law had not said, ‘You shall not covet.’


The law that judges transgression

Romans 2:25
“For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the law; but if you are a transgressor of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.”


The law as a single, whole obligation

Galatians 3:10
“For as many as are of works of law are under a curse; for it is written,
Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to do them.’”


The law as one unit, not divided

James 2:10
“For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, has become guilty of all.”


Law contrasted with faith

Romans 3:27–28
“Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.”


Witnessed by the Law and the Prophets

Romans 3:21
“But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets.”


Conclusion (from Scripture)

  • “Works of the law” refers to doing the law as a whole.
  • The law Paul speaks of includes commandments that define sin, not only ceremonial observances.
  • Paul treats the law as a single, unified covenant, not divided into ceremonial vs moral parts.

Therefore, “works of the law” in Romans 3 refers to the entire Mosaic Law, not merely the ceremonial law.

continue to trust AI and fail understanding. AI Cannot understand spiritual concepts and never will.
 
@Inquisitor , written this morning to clarity misconceptions I saw on this thread.

Works of the Law Explained
Introduction
The phrase “works of the law” appears in the Bible and is often misunderstood. Many people think it means all obedience or all good works. But when we read carefully, using the words of Jesus first, then the apostles, and finally Paul, a clearer picture appears. This paper explains what “works of the law” truly means, using simple language, and shows how faith, obedience, and God’s grace fit together.

All Scripture quotations are from the New King James Version (NKJV).

The Law According to Jesus
Jesus never spoke against obedience to God. He never taught that God’s commandments were a problem. Instead, He corrected false ideas about how people used the law.

Jesus said He did not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets, but to fulfill them (Matthew 5:17). He warned that whoever breaks even the least commandment and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:19).

Jesus explained that true obedience begins in the heart. Anger is the root of murder (Matthew 5:21–22). Lust is the root of adultery (Matthew 5:27–28). This shows that the problem was never the law itself, but the way people tried to keep it outwardly while their hearts stayed unchanged.

Jesus also made clear that eternal life is connected to obedience. He said, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17). He also said, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word” (John 14:23), and “Blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it” (Luke 11:28).

Jesus never used the phrase “works of the law,” but He clearly rejected the idea that outward religious actions, done for pride or self‑justification, could make someone righteous before God (Matthew 6:1–5). This prepares us to understand the phrase later used by Paul.

True Works as Jesus Taught Them
Jesus clearly explained what true works look like in the eyes of God. These works do not come from trying to earn righteousness, but from love, mercy, and obedience that flow from the heart. This is the kind of work God seeks.

Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love God with all the heart, soul, and mind, and the second is to love your neighbor as yourself. He added, “On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets” (Matthew 22:37–40). This shows that love is the core of the law, and all true works come from love.

Jesus gave clear examples. He said feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, welcoming the stranger, clothing the naked, caring for the sick, and visiting prisoners are works done to Him personally (Matthew 25:35–40). These are not rituals or identity markers. They are acts of mercy done out of love.

Jesus also taught that forgiveness is a true work of faith. He said, “If you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you” (Matthew 6:14). Refusing to forgive shows a heart that has not truly understood God’s mercy.

He taught that obedience itself is a work that comes from love. “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15). Obedience is not opposed to love. Obedience is love lived out.

Jesus warned against empty works done for show. He spoke against giving, praying, and fasting to be seen by others (Matthew 6:1–18). These actions looked religious, but they were not true works because they did not come from love for God.

He also said, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven” (Matthew 7:21). Doing the Father’s will is the true work that matters.

Jesus said, “A good tree bears good fruit” (Matthew 7:17). True works are the fruit of a good heart changed by God. They grow naturally from faith and love.

What the Apostles Taught
The disciples of Jesus continued His teaching. They did not say the law was evil. They taught that obedience must come from real faith.

James said that faith without works is dead (James 2:17). He explained that Abraham’s faith was made complete by his actions (James 2:22). These works did not replace faith. They showed that faith was alive.

James also spoke of the royal law and the law of liberty (James 2:8, 2:12). This shows that God’s law, when lived from the heart, brings freedom, not bondage.

Peter warned believers not to use freedom as a cover for evil, but to live as servants of God (1 Peter 2:16). John said, “He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar” (1 John 2:4).

The apostles never taught that obedience earns salvation. They taught that obedience is the fruit of salvation.

What “Works of the Law” Means in Paul’s Letters
Paul is the only biblical writer who uses the exact phrase “works of the law.” To understand him correctly, his words must be read in context.

Paul said, “By the works of the law no flesh shall be justified” (Romans 3:20). He also wrote, “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ” (Galatians 2:16).

Paul was not attacking obedience itself. He was speaking against the idea that people could be declared righteous by God through law-based actions, especially outward rituals and identity markers.

In Paul’s time, many believed circumcision, food laws, ritual purity, and calendar observances could place someone in right standing with God. Paul argued that these things could not justify anyone before God.

First, circumcision. This was the clearest example. A man entered the covenant by being circumcised (Genesis 17). Many believed that without this act, a Gentile could not belong to God’s people. Paul directly opposed this idea when circumcision was treated as a requirement for justification (Galatians 5:2).

Second, food laws. Eating only clean foods and avoiding foods called unclean separated Jews from Gentiles every day, at every meal (Leviticus 11). These rules marked identity, but they did not change the heart.

Third, ritual washings and purity rules. These included washings after contact with certain things, people, or events. These were not moral actions like loving or forgiving. They were ritual rules tied to ceremonial purity.

Fourth, temple sacrifices and feast observances. Bringing offerings, keeping appointed feasts, and following temple rules were tied to the priesthood and the sacrificial system.

These are called “works of the law” because they are things written in the law that must be done outwardly, often tied to identity, ritual, and covenant signs.

What they are not. They are not loving God. They are not loving your neighbor. They are not obeying God from the heart.

Paul also said the law is holy, just, and good (Romans 7:12). The problem, he said, was sin in the human heart (Romans 7:13).

Paul spoke of the obedience that comes from faith, calling it “the obedience of faith” (Romans 1:5). True faith produces obedience.


To conclude, “Works of the law” does not mean obedience to God in general. It means relying on law‑based actions, especially outward and ritual acts, as a way to be justified before God.

Jesus taught obedience from the heart. The apostles taught that real faith produces works. Paul taught that justification comes by grace through faith, not by trusting in law‑keeping. All of them agree that a saved person will walk in obedience, not to earn life, but because life has already been given.

Grace is the starting point. Faith receives it. Love fulfills the law. Obedience is the fruit.
 
The law did indeed come as one whole law, however:

If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless. Phil3:4-6

So Paul said he was faultless concerning the law as a Pharisee. He couldn't mean the whole law, because he told Timothy he was the worst of sinners. The NIV 1984 explains it as:
As for legalistic righteousness, faultless.
In other words, Saul could faultlessly obey the legalistic law of rite, ritual and ceremony. Rom 7:7-11 con firms this, for Saul the Pharisee could not obey the TC, so he could not obey the moral law, only the legalistic/Mosaic law.
Law you can faultlessly obey you can indeed be justified by obeying. So, if only the Mosaic law of rite, ritual and ceremony had been given at Sanai, Saul, could have been justified by the law. But he countinually states you cannot be justified by obeying the law.
Therefore, he only insists this because of the moral side of the law/TC
Notable, Paul gave an example of why he had to die to the law as he put it/righteousness of obeying it. The example he gave was one of the TC, (Rom7:7-11)confirming the above
 
Jesus was under the law of Moses and Jesus was talking to those under the law of Moses.

Paul never mentions the sabbath because Paul was speaking to the Gentiles.

The Gentiles were never under the law of Moses and the Gentiles were not in covenant,
to obey the law of Moses.

Horses for courses.

Jesus was under the law of Moses and Jesus was talking to those under the law of Moses. His message was first to the Jews His people chosen by God and HE DID send the 12 to teach all he said and did his message was therefore for everyine, this is confirmed in scripture No one can say the contrary

Paul never mentions the sabbath because Paul was speaking to the Gentiles. Paul did say the commandmente were good and Just, he also kept the sabbath

The Gentiles were never under the law of Moses ( true) and the Gentiles were not in covenant( false) , the believing gentiles who kept the ten commandments that the 12 were teaching ( the COVENANT) were under it not like the old one, the letter but in the new, the spirit of the law ( love)
to obey the law of Moses. gentiles were asked to keep only 4 items of the law of Moses
 
continue to trust AI and fail understanding. AI Cannot understand spiritual concepts and never will.

The letter to the Romans is not a spiritual text.

As I said before, many times, the letter to the Romans is a text document.

AI can read any text document in the N.T and read that text document in the given context.

You know the Jews were the circumcised; they were in the Mt Sinai covenant to obey the law.

That is a legal, binding covenant that the Jews agreed to.

The only way you can slip out of that legal, Mt Sinai covenant is by inferring that the Gentiles are also under the law.

No where in the O.T does it say the Gentiles were under the ten commandments or the law?

So how do you do that? How can you include the Gentiles in that old covenant law?

By saying that the law is eternal, that the law is moral, and by saying Adam was under the law.

Once you do that then mankind is under the covenant at Mt Sinai to obey the law.

That is your error and it is a serious error to make.

The Genesis text never states that Adam had the ten commandments or the law.

The scripture never includes the Gentiles in the Mt Sinai covenant.

The scripture never calls the law a moral law.

Paul said the Gentiles never knew God and never had the law, the temple, or even the covenants.

Romans 9:3-5
For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren,
my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons,
and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed.

How do you read Romans 9:3-5?

Tell me how you read it!

Your in direct conflict with the Biblical facts.

AI can see this and your ancient interpretation is incorrect.
 
The Gentiles were never under the law of Moses ( true) and the Gentiles were not in covenant( false)

Here is the faulty interpretation which you stated.

The Gentiles were never under the law of Moses ( true) and the Gentiles were not in covenant( false)

You contradicted yourself.

The law of Moses is the ten commandments plus other commandments in the Mt Sinai covenant.

The Gentiles did not sign the Mt Sinai covenant and therefore, were never under the law of Moses.

It is a powerful legal point that you are evading.

The Gentiles never knew God or the covenants.

The Gentiles had no knowledge of the ten commandments nor were they legally in covenant to
obey the ten commandments.