Controversial or finally the truth?

[pinebeach]

Good and valid questions.
Of course, I believe in the gifts of The Holy Spirit.
I believe the miracles stated in the Bible.
I believe that God can suspend the laws of physics, and there is the possibility that He has done it in modern times.

What I have never experienced is a Charismatic who has maintained a balanced and rational view of a spiritual life.
To a man, when challenged, they have muddied the waters on their assertions and have refused to answer questions.
If someone tells me they heard God tell them do thus and such, I have no way to disprove that.
It's frustrating when this same person participates in gossip that poisons relationships and is unwilling to hear correction.

I relent, no one is perfect, but how do you test the Spirits when the automatic response is that I am defying The Spirit of God?

I guess it's charitable to believe there are sincere Christians among the multitude that attend Joel Osteen's church, but what does that say about their discernment?

Who are the respected leaders of the Charismatic movement?
They are falling like dominoes. Who is left to carry on the principles of Charismatic beliefs?
What are those beliefs?
I don't know one name. I don't know one healthy belief other than the beliefs I hold to already.

No, I can't disprove that they didn't see someone raised from the dead, that a leg was elongated, or that an interpretation of tongues isn't spot on.
Proving a negative is problematic.
It would have been helpful if the supposed balanced ones denounced the frauds all along.
What are the odds that in 50 years and all of my encounters, I never met one?
The time spent on seeing angels, demons, and talking audibly to Jesus Himself drains their credibility.

Jaumel denounced the group himself.
This is compatible with my observations. Everyone outs their own churches and the hypocrisy that exists in them.
They just don't see it in themselves.

If God is unable to build a perfect church beyond reproach, He shouldn't have promised to.
That bride is meeting Jesus without spot or wrinkle; I guarantee it because God did.

Look, I've been avoiding sharing this because I haven't wanted to be viewed as an object of sympathy.
Everyone's lives have unique challenges, and these challenges shape how they think.
People with traumas are influenced in certain ways.

My situation is that my wife of 45 years is in the 6th stage of early onset Frontotemporal Dementia.
As a result, I have lived a life of intense isolation. This disease drives people away.
I have never been asked what my wife is experiencing or what I go through.
My opinions of Christianity aren't limited to Charismatics. I believe the entire church body is shot.
The "normal" Christians in our lives told us early on that they are "bad at texting". A couple told me how strapped for money they were when I had never solicited financial support. They wanted to head things off.

As a result, I have determined to go through this on my own. I have never used in-home nursing or respite care.
I have chosen not to administer medication because that would weaken her.
As a result, my wife talks nonstop for hours at a time, unintelligibly. This puts people off to the extent that when she could walk, neighbors would duck into their apartments, and now that she can't go for walks, it freaks people out, so they don't visit.

This progression is something we have been going through for ten years without a single Christian thinking anything of it.
Once I let it slip to one of my sons that I don't have significant conversations with people in person for weeks and months at a time.
I listened to his verbal incredulity expressed as this soaked in, but it didn't alter his behavior.

No, I'm not judgmental of every relationship in my life. Only leaders and people who state their values from their own mouths.
If a Charismatic has a book or a teacher that I can examine, it's never been offered to me before.
Trump promoted Kenneth Copeland.
Mainstream pastors get excited about people coming back from the dead without even considering that these authors might be scamming. They want so badly to believe. It tickles their followers' ears.
Fox News has promoted all kinds of false teaching.
Speaking of which, Fox News promotes all kinds of profane and depraved humor and has corrupted the Christian women anchors who normally would have had a decent Christian witness.

The church is more ill than most can even imagine.

Back to my situation. I have spent the majority of my Christian experience writing about my observations and reexamining them over and over. Especially in the past ten years, I have become more convinced that before the miracles, repentance, and revival are going to occur.
This isn't a prophecy, just a speculation. I want repentance over miracles anyway.

I know I'm not crazy because my wife understood what I was saying before my complete thoughts left my mouth.
She is the only person I would bank my life on her salvation.
She never obfuscated in our conflicts. My first indication of her dementia was that we started going to bed with unresolved issues.
It was because she couldn't follow the conversations or arguments. Before that, without exception, we came to agreement before going to sleep.
All our friends and relatives knew this.
This is what I'm searching for to be the norm in the church. This might be my last-ditch effort.

I can be fun, and I can be empathetic. I have no doubt of this. I dread confrontation and would rather go through my suffering without anyone thinking about me.

Suffering brings one closer to God. My God shall supply all our needs. We need suffering, it's no strange thing.

But to take your suffering and interpret it through the lens of miracles isn't healthy.
This is the state of the Charismatic movement.

Look at which threads get attention. Does that say anything to you about the mindset and character of Christians?

I have decades of observations I would refer to as insights. I have no reason to avoid them being vetted.
It's just that I get banned from churches before they will examine them.

But I would be more than willing to investigate the best of the best of Charismatic teachers and authors.

And the next time I hear, "No such thing as a perfect church", my reply will be, "Only because they serve an imperfect God."



.

That's alot to take in (as I'm sure you know) and I never expected so much info. I don't take any of what you stated lightly and I'm not going to avoid talking about it. You have said an awful lot and I have questions about some of it. I would never give all that info out in this forum or basically anywhere because I am a little too well versed in some of the things you mention and I have already discussed many concerns with people I trusted but I don't think I would even do that today. Will respond later and no, I don't say that and not mean it.

 

[JaumeJ]

Some of the writings important to this thread I must quote in my words, and hopefully they convey understanding.
There is a reference to the Great Whore with names of blasphemy all over her body. I have been given to believe those names are her daughters.
It is written that in the last days our Father will call is Children out of her. It stands to reason out of her daughters also.
In the Book, Revelation, There are two mentions which give great meaning and hope to all who believe. God will cahh his children out of her in the last days. It stands to reason He will call them out of her daughters also.
Also, I believe it is written in Daniel, or perhaps Revelation that people with knowledge will be scattered throughout this world.
With these teachings in mind, I have come to understand that in the last days, the vast majority of the world' populace just could be mainly demons following the dictates of their ruler.
It is a dark message but filled with great comfort for those who believe our Savior.

 

[Underd0g]

That's alot to take in (as I'm sure you know) and I never expected so much info. I don't take any of what you stated lightly and I'm not going to avoid talking about it. You have said an awful lot and I have questions about some of it. I would never give all that info out in this forum or basically anywhere because I am a little too well versed in some of the things you mention and I have already discussed many concerns with people I trusted but I don't think I would even do that today. Will respond later and no, I don't say that and not mean it.

Writers call it an information dump, and it's frowned upon.


.

 

[pinebeach]

Writers call it an information dump, and it's frowned upon.


.

Ok well, I've thought about how I'm going to tackle your info dump and I think not all at once, but break it down into more than one post.

If you can, I would appreciate you giving me a little leeway and let me finish....will say when....before responding. Otherwise, things might get somewhat hard to follow. In other words, I'm going to respond with more than one post so hold your breath until I'm done (actually no don't do that but do this )

Thanks

 

[pinebeach]

Good and valid questions.
Of course, I believe in the gifts of The Holy Spirit.
I believe the miracles stated in the Bible.
I believe that God can suspend the laws of physics, and there is the possibility that He has done it in modern times.

OK. Thanks was not sure if you did or not. I've seen a few things, but nothing to suspend the laws of physics. I also believe God still gives out gifts by His Spirit and I have a couple myself which I do not run around talking about. Real gifts are self evident.

What I have never experienced is a Charismatic who has maintained a balanced and rational view of a spiritual life.

What is your idea of balance here? I'm not a Charismatic and don't wish to be called one and the same goes for Pentecostal and the New Apostolic Reformation or any other 'we have the special anointing of God everybody is after' crowd. I especially abhor all the 'God told me to tell you' 'God told me you are going to marry a zebra and live on the African veldt' etc. kind of what I call Christian Fortunetelling. Run

Actually, that is the main point of the original video I posted. Very dangerous and not of God stuff. While we do see one prophet in the NT giving a personal word to Paul, is that the reason for the gift? Apparently alot of people seem to think that is a big part of it to the harm and detriment of thousands or more. If you watch the vid or even skip over it, you will see that is a major problem with one church in particular with one person in particular BUT and sadly, not something rare or astounding at this stage of the NT church.

You can reply about your idea of 'balance' when I post the final post.

To a man, when challenged, they have muddied the waters on their assertions and have refused to answer questions.

Am I right in thinking you are referring to your own questionning? At any rate, it is the leadership that is always to blame for the mud and shifting sands of their theology. You will find that addressed in the video also.

If someone tells me they heard God tell them do thus and such, I have no way to disprove that.
It's frustrating when this same person participates in gossip that poisons relationships and is unwilling to hear correction.

True. the biblical injunction to first go to a person privately, then take others, then in front of the entire congregation seems to be more along the lines of 'if you really want to make a mess, do such and such. After all we are not to judge.' (there's one of the biggest crocks of a leader being disobedient to correction and sometimes even disfellowship...and when would we ever do that anyway. I mean we are all sinners, right? Actually, no we are not. If you are in Christ, God does not accept you as a sinner. He accepts you through the righteousness of Christ. Which reminds me, foundational teaching of who we are in Christ and the basic doctrines of scripture seem to be as hard to come across as the famous unicorn. But I digress.

I relent, no one is perfect, but how do you test the Spirits when the automatic response is that I am defying The Spirit of God?

Actually that is backwards. And of course we also have the contingency 'don't touch God's annointed'.

on to post 2 Sorry for spelling mistakes if you find them

 

[pinebeach]

I guess it's charitable to believe there are sincere Christians among the multitude that attend Joel Osteen's church, but what does that say about their discernment?

You do jump around, I'll give you that. Anyone I know will refer to Osteen's church as 'gospel light'. Sadly many do not want more but some just don't know any better either.

Who are the respected leaders of the Charismatic movement?
They are falling like dominoes. Who is left to carry on the principles of Charismatic beliefs?
What are those beliefs?
I don't know one name. I don't know one healthy belief other than the beliefs I hold to already.

Well it's always called the 'movement' but in truth, it's not new. Sexual sin is pervasive; and to the point the so called Evangelist, pastor, teacher are setting examples of how to be profane while teaching from the Bible in a good many cases. I do not want to 'carry on' the principles of Charismatic beliefs. Open the Bible; those are the beliefs to carry on. I don't know what beliefs you hold to, so you might explain those if you want. But Charasmatics are far from alone in their dubious practices.
.

No, I can't disprove that they didn't see someone raised from the dead, that a leg was elongated, or that an interpretation of tongues isn't spot on.

Generally, these things sort themselves out. Liars do get caught and those with discernment see it anyway and pray. As far as interpretation goes, there is guidance on that. That's an entire other subject though so not going there.

It would have been helpful if the supposed balanced ones denounced the frauds all along.
What are the odds that in 50 years and all of my encounters, I never met one?
The time spent on seeing angels, demons, and talking audibly to Jesus Himself drains their credibility.

Well I can't agree there. There are still trustworthy people who don't preach goosebumps and angel visitations or walking around heaven with Jesus in your spare time. People do like their goosebumps though

end of this post

 

[pinebeach]

Tomorrow. Thanks for your patience.

 

[Underd0g]

Tomorrow. Thanks for your patience.

I tend to overwhelm.
Personally, I think it's because so many issues never get addressed.
My wife used to keep me from humiliating myself.
I just discovered that it requires a subscription to PM people here.
I think I may have bitten off more than I can chew.
I appreciate the ear, never experienced that before.
Might be why I overshared.


.

 

[pinebeach]

I tend to overwhelm.
Personally, I think it's because so many issues never get addressed.
My wife used to keep me from humiliating myself.
I just discovered that it requires a subscription to PM people here.
I think I may have bitten off more than I can chew.
I appreciate the ear, never experienced that before.
Might be why I overshared.


.

Well I won't deny a little restraint could help. You cannot jump on everything and pour out frustrations and disappointments and want answers for that. See, you are basically talking about personal (I'll use the word values here but it's not the best word) values and wanting others to fulfill them for you. You want answers that jibe with your expectations. Doesn' come. You want people to change when you point out scripture to them that they are not following. Doesn't come. Actually, you want change that only God can effect. But like I said, going through your concerns a little slower should help and maybe give you time to think about your own responses without that emotional overload.

So no worries. Going to continue on with my response.

 

[pinebeach]

If God is unable to build a perfect church beyond reproach, He shouldn't have promised to.
That bride is meeting Jesus without spot or wrinkle; I guarantee it because God did.

Look, I've been avoiding sharing this because I haven't wanted to be viewed as an object of sympathy.
Everyone's lives have unique challenges, and these challenges shape how they think.
People with traumas are influenced in certain ways.

Are you able to show me where we find that God is building a 'perfect church beyond reproach'? Hint: We will never be perfect on this earth. Never. Read that several times and then try to filter it through your EXPECTATIONS. Don't let me startle or disappoint you with what I say next. God does not and has never said He is building a perfect church.

Question here: Have you ever studied or been taught who we are IN Christ or how God sees us POSITIONALLY IN His Son?

The answer to that question has the potential to help you and see things a little differently. Really.

Look, I've been avoiding sharing this because I haven't wanted to be viewed as an object of sympathy.

I'm not sure you believe that. However, if you are looking for sympathy here, you could probably get some.....but not from me. Obviously you hurt, but I don't want you to stay there. I can promise you though, that I have alot of patience and anyone really wanting to grow and stop the circular why why why, is going to benefit from that patience. And yes, I have counselled with and helped people so I'm not new at this. I have been one of the most impatient people and made some bad mistakes because of it.
I will tell you though, that you need to stop the emotional stress on yourself and start to make some changes to yourself and that includes more than anything, the process of getting understanding from the Bible and changing your mind by God's word and agree with what it says. And no you have not done that.

Everyone's lives have unique challenges, and these challenges shape how they think.
People with traumas are influenced in certain ways.

And that right there, is problematic. The word is what should be shaping how we think. And you will see that once you start to actually do that. It's work but when someone digs themself into a trench and only pops up to say see? that's why I'm in this trench, nothing changes....maybe gets worse, but not better. That is not denying your situation; that is addressing your situation in the only way sustainable and I do know what I'm talking about here. The answer to the why is not going to be found charging people with a response that will satisfy what you want; change and responsibility.

 

[pinebeach]

My situation is that my wife of 45 years is in the 6th stage of early onset Frontotemporal Dementia.
As a result, I have lived a life of intense isolation. This disease drives people away.
I have never been asked what my wife is experiencing or what I go through.
My opinions of Christianity aren't limited to Charismatics. I believe the entire church body is shot.
The "normal" Christians in our lives told us early on that they are "bad at texting". A couple told me how strapped for money they were when I had never solicited financial support. They wanted to head things off.

I do feel for you. I would handle things differently but that would be my choice and no blame either way.

The entire church body is not shot. Understand there are many many walking wounded on this spiritual battlefield, you just might be making more noise about it then most even if only to yourself.

You may not agree with what I'm going to say, but isolating yourself is detrimental and quite possibly making the way you think worse. From what you say, you are very disappointed in the way other people have reacted, understandable, but they are not responsible for how you receive their actions or lack thereof. They are probably very relieved to not be in your situation.

As a result, I have determined to go through this on my own. I have never used in-home nursing or respite care.
I have chosen not to administer medication because that would weaken her.
As a result, my wife talks nonstop for hours at a time, unintelligibly. This puts people off to the extent that when she could walk, neighbors would duck into their apartments, and now that she can't go for walks, it freaks people out, so they don't visit.

Not using help that is available, does not make you a hero. I would advise you to change that and receive the help that you can. My dad suffered a terrible stroke and believe me, we availed ourselves of respite and the help they provided. I loved my dad very much, still love him, but respite is offered for the very good and simple reason that looking after someone who cannot look after themself 24/7 is draining and in the end, the caregiver's aid will suffer and sometimes people may even become resentful towards the one that takes up their energy and time. I am NOT saying that is you, but that can and does happen.

Medication can serve to aid in the care. You say your wife talks nonstop for hours. How does that help her? I would think it does not and probably the more she talks, the more she will talk. Sorry, but no kidding it puts people off. My dad yelled and would not sleep at bedtime. The medication calmed him down so he would not yell and would sleep. We certainly needed to sleep so everyone was better off.

I'm not making light of the condition of your wife or how you deal with it. It is draining and adding to the stress you feel and don't think it doesn't. I don't think your post is only about 'the church'. I think you just might be expressing some of your frustration with your situation onto things that add to your disappointment but are not, again NOT, the cause of your wife's illness. Forgive my being so blunt, but do you want hours of counselling (not from me) but from a professional who tries to get you to come to the answers yourself? That, is how counselling can work. Alot of $ tied up in that.

You love your wife and probably feel guilty at the way you think sometimes (am I wrong, I could be wrong) I do have an analytical mind and that's how I approach things, so I try and understand sides of a problem and not just a one off answer as in do this or do that.

This progression is something we have been going through for ten years without a single Christian thinking anything of it.
Once I let it slip to one of my sons that I don't have significant conversations with people in person for weeks and months at a time.
I listened to his verbal incredulity expressed as this soaked in, but it didn't alter his behavior.

I am saddened that is so. I gather his behavior was simply to move on. I really do think if you took advantage of respite and either got out of the house even if just for a walk or window shopping or whatever, you might just clear your head a little. Your wife won't be offended or judgemental so go ahead. Take care of yourself a little.

No, I'm not judgmental of every relationship in my life. Only leaders and people who state their values from their own mouths.
If a Charismatic has a book or a teacher that I can examine, it's never been offered to me before.
Trump promoted Kenneth Copeland.
Mainstream pastors get excited about people coming back from the dead without even considering that these authors might be scamming. They want so badly to believe. It tickles their followers' ears.
Fox News has promoted all kinds of false teaching.
Speaking of which, Fox News promotes all kinds of profane and depraved humor and has corrupted the Christian women anchors who normally would have had a decent Christian witness.

I don't beleive Trump is a Christian and Copeland needs deliverance. Moving on, you cannot cause other people to act in a manner you approve of. Personally, and remember I have also been abused spiritually, I did try to get 'help' and soon realized the help needed help. Fox News is a worldly business so why on earth, let me repeat that, why on earth, would you try and hold them up to biblical standards? I wonder if certain people want the proof of their faith with all the (cough cough) goosebump causing miracles.
Rhetorical question I think.

Regarding Fox women anchors, wearing a cross around your neck does not make you a follower of Jesus and a good number are Catholic but I'm not going down that rabbit hole

 

[pinebeach]

The church is more ill than most can even imagine.

That, if you believe, is not your personal cause to take on or use as an excuse for continued wringing of the hands and emotional backpack that is too heavy to wear for the rest of your life.

 

[pinebeach]

I dread confrontation and would rather go through my suffering without anyone thinking about me.

Suffering brings one closer to God. My God shall supply all our needs. We need suffering, it's no strange thing.

But to take your suffering and interpret it through the lens of miracles isn't healthy.
This is the state of the Charismatic movement.

Not sure how you are seeing suffering in the C movement through the lens of miracles? Do you mean 'healings' and such?

Look at which threads get attention. Does that say anything to you about the mindset and character of Christians?

The threads that seem to get the most attention are those that present unbiblical ideas/opinions and then you have a flock of believers who are quick to point those errors out. I am one of those on a regular basis. The other threads that get so much attention, are those who present doctrines that seem to be the opposite of each other such as the 'can we really exercise free wil' at 1783 submissions with no resolutions. There are some here using this forum as their personal platform because, apparently, they do not have one anywhere else.

I have decades of observations I would refer to as insights. I have no reason to avoid them being vetted.
It's just that I get banned from churches before they will examine them.

But I would be more than willing to investigate the best of the best of Charismatic teachers and authors.

And the next time I hear, "No such thing as a perfect church", my reply will be, "Only because they serve an imperfect God."

Do you mean actually banned as in 'we never want to see you here again.'?

Perfect by our expectations or perfect from God's who looks on the heart and has told us that the chaff grows up with the wheat?

 

[pinebeach]

OK. That's it for that post. If you want to respond, please don't use that overwhelming method. That is just about impossible to deal with.

Thanks

 

[Underd0g]

@pinebeach

There's no way I would overwhelm you with a response like that.
You nailed it and ironically proved my point.
I needed someone to listen.
You were right on with so many insights.
A couple of issues you may have missed context because you don't know me perfectly, but they didn't matter.
I feel this huge sense of relief.
Because I interacted with you, I received significant clarity.
I no longer regret it.
Don't get a big head.

 

[pinebeach]

@pinebeach

There's no way I would overwhelm you with a response like that.
You nailed it and ironically proved my point.
I needed someone to listen.
You were right on with so many insights.
A couple of issues you may have missed context because you don't know me perfectly, but they didn't matter.
I feel this huge sense of relief.
Because I interacted with you, I received significant clarity.
I no longer regret it.
Don't get a big head.

OK then

 

[pinebeach]

I too have received some significant clarity. Some people think you have as much time to waste as, apparently, they do. I see a pattern of self inflicted problems and no resolution other than to blame everyone else. May have got too close to home. shrugs

Live and learn I guess.

In other news, if anyone is interested, Bethel church is issuing apologies for their lack of honesty, integrity and responsibility. The actual main focus on the video was so called personal prophecy and the harm it does when operating through a false prophet. Bethel has been off the rails for many years.

 

[Underd0g]

I too have received some significant clarity. Some people think you have as much time to waste as, apparently, they do. I see a pattern of self inflicted problems and no resolution other than to blame everyone else. May have got too close to home. shrugs

Live and learn I guess.

Oh, I guess it wasn't kindness after all... my bad.

 

[ResidentAlien]

The real problem with Bethel is their false doctrine and false prophets. They can express contrition over this Shawn Bolz thing all day long, but until they clean up their own house it's just empty words.

 

[pinebeach]

The real problem with Bethel is their false doctrine and false prophets. They can express contrition over this Shawn Bolz thing all day long, but until they clean up their own house it's just empty words.

Totally agree. We had some discussions here some years back about Bethel and IHOP (internationl house of prayer) IHOP no longer around with sexual abuse, including homosexuality and of course false prophecy their 'fruit' and Bethel known for their 'ministries' and music industry. It seems they have been 'protecting' false people for a long time and when it's exposed, do they warn people or apologize? Nope. They just start deleting photos and videos.

I don't think they are still doing the 'grave sucking' thing but who knows. Many more out there