Does the Parable of the Wedding Banquet confirm the abrogation of the Israelites and invitation to the Gentiles?

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To note: I don't think "abrogation" is a correct term. Access to the Father was not taken from the Israelites. In Christ, they receive direct access to the Father. This is true for the Gentiles as well.

Of course, in Christ an Israeli receives the right to rule over the whole of creation which includes the small, parcel of land currently labeled "Israel". In Christ, they give up nothing of value (a.k.a. their own lives) compared to the eternal access to God they gain as sons of God. The same is true for any Gentile in Christ.

I am not convinced that "abrogation of the Israelites" is exactly what the parable confirms either.
I think that it rather confirms a spiritual power shift within the house of Israel with massive implications for the nation.

Here is another parable that carries a similar theme:

Mathew 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

My Sunday school questions:

1.Who is the householder?
2.What is the vineyard?
3.Who are the husbandmen?
4.Who were the servants?
5.What did the husbandmen do to the servants?
6.Who was the Son?
7.What did the husbandmen do to the Son?
8.Why did they do it?
9.What will the Lord do to those husbandmen?
10. What is the NATION to whom the kingdom of God will be given?
 
I do not welcome those who mock my reasoning without explanation
.
Do you think Moses would have wanted to discuss your ''common sense'' thinking that resulted in something other than what he plainly stated? Im sure he would have been too busy for that:
then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes[a] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. 6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. Deut30:3-6
 
Do you think Moses would have wanted to discuss your ''common sense'' thinking that resulted in something other than what he plainly stated? Im sure he would have been too busy for that:
then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes[a] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. 6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. Deut30:3-6

If you do not want to discuss these things with me then don't.
I do not mind what you think, it makes no difference to me.
If on the other hand you want to discuss the scriptures with me and are willing to treat me with some degree of respect that is ok too, but it is well and truly your turn to answer the questions.
You can start with my Sunday school questions on the parable above.
 
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If you do not want to discuss these things with me then don't.
I do not mind what you think, it makes no difference to me.
If on the other hand you want to discuss the scriptures with me and are willing to treat me with some degree of respect that is ok too, but it is well and truly your turn to answer the questions.
You can start with my Sunday school questions on the parable above.
If you think I am going to discuss your attempts to overturn huge swathes of scripture all saying the same thing you are mistaken. And frankly, your comment telling me to b..... off relates well in my view to your common sense leading you astray
 
I welcome people who disagree with me.
I do not welcome those who mock my reasoning without explanation while continually asking me to explain every passage they paste.
I am too busy for that.
Sometimes we will be mocked. Is that not what the Savior said would happen? Next, you say you are too busy. Well, you know if you are busy or not but if what we are saying is true then it is good for other people to hear it and we have to come up with a better way to say what you believe.

Acts 17:2 says that Paul AS WAS HIS CUSTOM went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbaths he REASONED WITH THEM [his fellow Jews] from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Christ,” he declared.…
At this time, Paul's custom was to go into the synagogues and proclaim the gospel even when they disputed his claims
 
If you think I am going to discuss your attempts to overturn huge swathes of scripture all saying the same thing you are mistaken. And frankly, your comment telling me to b..... off relates well in my view to your common sense leading you astray

Yes, "bugger off" kind of has a harsh and insensitive tone to it I guess.
How do I bring you to your senses though?
Do you not know that it is also very rude to post all those huge swathes of scripture to me and deny me the right to respond or to use common sense?
You are constantly posting large volumes of questions to me, and while I have good answers all of them you consider it beneath your dignity to discuss them with me.
So if you want your views to remain unchallenged, I say to you feel free not to discuss them with me or anyone else who is inclined to challenge them.
I have a right none the less to ask that you stop harassing me.
 
Sometimes we will be mocked. Is that not what the Savior said would happen? Next, you say you are too busy. Well, you know if you are busy or not but if what we are saying is true then it is good for other people to hear it and we have to come up with a better way to say what you believe.

Acts 17:2 says that Paul AS WAS HIS CUSTOM went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbaths he REASONED WITH THEM [his fellow Jews] from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Christ,” he declared.…
At this time, Paul's custom was to go into the synagogues and proclaim the gospel even when they disputed his claims

Jimi, all I mean by "busy" is that I am in the middle of a harvest season.
I am an immature 57 year old with 4 un-grown up kids.
I am more than willing to take time out of this to REASON about the scriptures, but I was addressing a person who refuses to reason.
Reasoning also implies that we are reasonable, and as we approach the time of the end there is an increasing lack of reasonableness.
 
If you think contending for the faith (as you understand it) is a game then I suggest you do something else but responding with "bugger off" is not something any Christian should say. I recommend you look up this word

If you present me with even one of those verses from Zechariah my mind is exploding with responses that I want to post.
That is why I try to ask convenient bite size questions that invite others to respond.
I try not to abuse and reject people for holding a different view, because I know that we need each other for meaningful conversation.
It seems to me however that that poster was in need of a rebuke.
I do not live in an outstandingly civilized part of the world and have not been a Christian all of my life.
In the past if some clown treated me like that I would have instinctively put my fists where they seemed to belong, though hard to do on the internet.
"Bugger off" is a slight improvement from all that, but if you have an even better way of dealing with them I will listen.
 
The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman
and the planter by the one treading grapes.
New wine will drip from the mountains
and flow from all the hills,
14 and I will bring my people Israel back from exile.[f]
“They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the Lord your God.
Amos9:13-15

I will leave it there for now, to allow for your common sense to give me explanations

When studying prophetic scripture common sense will not aid with the understanding. Whenever possible, one must...
1. know if there is further revelation on this subject. (especially if the prophecy is in the Old Testament)
and
2. whenever possible, let the further revelation define the words of the prophesy

So here is the passage above starting at verse 11

11 “On that day I will raise up The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, And repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, And rebuild it as in the days of old; 12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,” Says the Lord who does this thing. 13 “Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord, “When the plowman shall overtake the reaper, And the treader of grapes him who sows seed; The mountains shall drip with sweet wine, And all the hills shall flow with it. 14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them. 15 I will plant them in their land, And no longer shall they be pulled up From the land I have given them,” Says the Lord your God."

At the time this was written the "tabernacle of David" was understood to be a temporary tent erected by King David on Mount Zion to house the Ark of the Covenant. The reference is here: LINK

***Hard Stop***

Let me go a different way. I realized this would require several pages of scripture and explanation. For those with a bias it would be lost on them. So I am going to pick out the main themes of the passage and set them in their proper place according to the revelation provided in the New Testament.

Tabernacle of David: This housed the Ark of the Covenant. In the tabernacle, David, a king, performed the duties of a priest by offering the (among others) the fellowship offering. Here in Jewish history is a Kingly Priest who is actually David. So what is being rebuilt and repaired is:
1. the testament of God's covenant with the people
2. the administration of a royal priesthood
3. the inclusion of the Gentiles within this covenant and administration ("And all the Gentiles who are called by My name...)

We should recognize this as the appearing of Jesus: He was of the line of David and the High Priest of the Melchizedek order (not Levi or Moses).

Levi and Moses represented the people before God.
Jesus and Melchizedek represented God before the people.

It's this royal, priestly administration that Jesus came to restore NOT the priests that were created at Sinai through the Law. This was a priesthood that represented God to the people and Jesus came to show us exactly that: the Father.

The "remnant of Edom" should be understood to be all of humanity or all of creation. This is a global administration.

Let's move forward.

The way that "the plowman shall overtake the reaper" is when the reaper is bogged down by the abundance of grain that the plowman overtakes the reaper. This hearkens back to God's promise in Joshua (Joshua or Yehoshua in the Hebrew is the name "Jesus" in the Old Testament) , hundreds of years before Amos was written:

"I have given you a land for which you did not labor, and cities which you did not build, and you dwell in them; you eat of the vineyards and olive groves which you did not plant.’"

This land of promise and the cites of promise are because of the abundance of Gentile believers.

In the kingdom of God, riches come into the throne room when those who were once NOT God's people (only those of promise are God's people) come to God. God doesn't let them win the lottery or give them insider trading information to amass wealth. No, He compounds the gains by gaining people unto himself. For example here:

All Kedar’s flocks will be gathered to you,
the rams of Nebaioth will serve you;
they will be accepted as offerings on my altar,
and I will adorn my glorious temple.


Here, the first and second born of Ishmael, the Arabs, will be gathered to God. Largely, the Arabs are currently under the demonic rule of Islam yet it is prophesied that they will abandon their demonic god and turn to the Lord. When that happens all their riches (not just gold and silver but mostly their uniqueness in the Body of Christ) will benefit the whole house of God.

Let's move forward.

Sweet wine is understood to be new wine. New wine is typically sweeter. This is understood to be an increased harvest. Certainly, if that harvest occurs over the whole earth then multitudes no one could count would be included in the sweet wine.

"My people" should be understood to be "people of promise". Abraham (and his seed) are the inheritors of the world:

In Romans we read "It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith."

The priestly administration that secured the world for Abraham and his seed (meaning One Seed who is Christ Galatians 3:16, again going back to the tabernacle that is restored, a royal priesthood) is Melchizedek. This occurred 430 years before the law was given at Sinai. So, we are dealing with the people of Promise Israel NOT the people of natural DNA Israel. AS Paul wrote:

"For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed."

The children of promise are all who are contained in Christ, the High priest of the line of royal priests, the order of Melchizedek. This is the covenant that is being restored in the passage. Therefore, the lands that are given to them, the cities that are restored, are found in the whole earth. This is how complete the administration of Christ is: it covers the whole earth, a global kingdom.

To no longer be able to be uprooted requires the new earth.

Otherwise, God would undo, by His own hand, what He accomplished when the old heaven and old earth pass away:

This is in Revelation: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away..."

This is just a little ways further in the same passage: "“Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

We have come full circle back to the tabernacle of David, when God is in us and we are in Him... the fulfillment of the Jesus' prayer, our High Priest:

"...that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."

In Him, there is no Jew or Gentile. He is a New Man, having become One from the two. That's what we know from Paul's letter to the Ephesians:

"..so as to create in Himself one new man from the two (Jew and Gentile), thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross..."

Amen
 
When studying prophetic scripture common sense will not aid with the understanding. Whenever possible, one must...
1. know if there is further revelation on this subject. (especially if the prophecy is in the Old Testament)
and
2. whenever possible, let the further revelation define the words of the prophesy

So here is the passage above starting at verse 11

11 “On that day I will raise up The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, And repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, And rebuild it as in the days of old; 12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,” Says the Lord who does this thing. 13 “Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord, “When the plowman shall overtake the reaper, And the treader of grapes him who sows seed; The mountains shall drip with sweet wine, And all the hills shall flow with it. 14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them. 15 I will plant them in their land, And no longer shall they be pulled up From the land I have given them,” Says the Lord your God."

At the time this was written the "tabernacle of David" was understood to be a temporary tent erected by King David on Mount Zion to house the Ark of the Covenant. The reference is here: LINK

***Hard Stop***

Let me go a different way. I realized this would require several pages of scripture and explanation. For those with a bias it would be lost on them. So I am going to pick out the main themes of the passage and set them in their proper place according to the revelation provided in the New Testament.

Tabernacle of David: This housed the Ark of the Covenant. In the tabernacle, David, a king, performed the duties of a priest by offering the (among others) the fellowship offering. Here in Jewish history is a Kingly Priest who is actually David. So what is being rebuilt and repaired is:
1. the testament of God's covenant with the people
2. the administration of a royal priesthood
3. the inclusion of the Gentiles within this covenant and administration ("And all the Gentiles who are called by My name...)

We should recognize this as the appearing of Jesus: He was of the line of David and the High Priest of the Melchizedek order (not Levi or Moses).

Levi and Moses represented the people before God.
Jesus and Melchizedek represented God before the people.

It's this royal, priestly administration that Jesus came to restore NOT the priests that were created at Sinai through the Law. This was a priesthood that represented God to the people and Jesus came to show us exactly that: the Father.

The "remnant of Edom" should be understood to be all of humanity or all of creation. This is a global administration.

Let's move forward.

The way that "the plowman shall overtake the reaper" is when the reaper is bogged down by the abundance of grain that the plowman overtakes the reaper. This hearkens back to God's promise in Joshua (Joshua or Yehoshua in the Hebrew is the name "Jesus" in the Old Testament) , hundreds of years before Amos was written:

"I have given you a land for which you did not labor, and cities which you did not build, and you dwell in them; you eat of the vineyards and olive groves which you did not plant.’"

This land of promise and the cites of promise are because of the abundance of Gentile believers.

In the kingdom of God, riches come into the throne room when those who were once NOT God's people (only those of promise are God's people) come to God. God doesn't let them win the lottery or give them insider trading information to amass wealth. No, He compounds the gains by gaining people unto himself. For example here:

All Kedar’s flocks will be gathered to you,
the rams of Nebaioth will serve you;
they will be accepted as offerings on my altar,
and I will adorn my glorious temple.


Here, the first and second born of Ishmael, the Arabs, will be gathered to God. Largely, the Arabs are currently under the demonic rule of Islam yet it is prophesied that they will abandon their demonic god and turn to the Lord. When that happens all their riches (not just gold and silver but mostly their uniqueness in the Body of Christ) will benefit the whole house of God.

Let's move forward.

Sweet wine is understood to be new wine. New wine is typically sweeter. This is understood to be an increased harvest. Certainly, if that harvest occurs over the whole earth then multitudes no one could count would be included in the sweet wine.

"My people" should be understood to be "people of promise". Abraham (and his seed) are the inheritors of the world:

In Romans we read "It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith."

The priestly administration that secured the world for Abraham and his seed (meaning One Seed who is Christ Galatians 3:16, again going back to the tabernacle that is restored, a royal priesthood) is Melchizedek. This occurred 430 years before the law was given at Sinai. So, we are dealing with the people of Promise Israel NOT the people of natural DNA Israel. AS Paul wrote:

"For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed."

The children of promise are all who are contained in Christ, the High priest of the line of royal priests, the order of Melchizedek. This is the covenant that is being restored in the passage. Therefore, the lands that are given to them, the cities that are restored, are found in the whole earth. This is how complete the administration of Christ is: it covers the whole earth, a global kingdom.

To no longer be able to be uprooted requires the new earth.

Otherwise, God would undo, by His own hand, what He accomplished when the old heaven and old earth pass away:

This is in Revelation: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away..."

This is just a little ways further in the same passage: "“Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

We have come full circle back to the tabernacle of David, when God is in us and we are in Him... the fulfillment of the Jesus' prayer, our High Priest:

"...that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."

In Him, there is no Jew or Gentile. He is a New Man, having become One from the two. That's what we know from Paul's letter to the Ephesians:

"..so as to create in Himself one new man from the two (Jew and Gentile), thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross..."

Amen
When did the following prophecy take place:
They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles UNTIL the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke21:24
 
When studying prophetic scripture common sense will not aid with the understanding. Whenever possible, one must...
1. know if there is further revelation on this subject. (especially if the prophecy is in the Old Testament)
and
2. whenever possible, let the further revelation define the words of the prophesy

So here is the passage above starting at verse 11

11 “On that day I will raise up The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, And repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, And rebuild it as in the days of old; 12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,” Says the Lord who does this thing. 13 “Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord, “When the plowman shall overtake the reaper, And the treader of grapes him who sows seed; The mountains shall drip with sweet wine, And all the hills shall flow with it. 14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them. 15 I will plant them in their land, And no longer shall they be pulled up From the land I have given them,” Says the Lord your God."

At the time this was written the "tabernacle of David" was understood to be a temporary tent erected by King David on Mount Zion to house the Ark of the Covenant. The reference is here: LINK

***Hard Stop***

Let me go a different way. I realized this would require several pages of scripture and explanation. For those with a bias it would be lost on them. So I am going to pick out the main themes of the passage and set them in their proper place according to the revelation provided in the New Testament.

Tabernacle of David: This housed the Ark of the Covenant. In the tabernacle, David, a king, performed the duties of a priest by offering the (among others) the fellowship offering. Here in Jewish history is a Kingly Priest who is actually David. So what is being rebuilt and repaired is:
1. the testament of God's covenant with the people
2. the administration of a royal priesthood
3. the inclusion of the Gentiles within this covenant and administration ("And all the Gentiles who are called by My name...)

We should recognize this as the appearing of Jesus: He was of the line of David and the High Priest of the Melchizedek order (not Levi or Moses).

Levi and Moses represented the people before God.
Jesus and Melchizedek represented God before the people.

It's this royal, priestly administration that Jesus came to restore NOT the priests that were created at Sinai through the Law. This was a priesthood that represented God to the people and Jesus came to show us exactly that: the Father.

The "remnant of Edom" should be understood to be all of humanity or all of creation. This is a global administration.

Let's move forward.

The way that "the plowman shall overtake the reaper" is when the reaper is bogged down by the abundance of grain that the plowman overtakes the reaper. This hearkens back to God's promise in Joshua (Joshua or Yehoshua in the Hebrew is the name "Jesus" in the Old Testament) , hundreds of years before Amos was written:

"I have given you a land for which you did not labor, and cities which you did not build, and you dwell in them; you eat of the vineyards and olive groves which you did not plant.’"

This land of promise and the cites of promise are because of the abundance of Gentile believers.

In the kingdom of God, riches come into the throne room when those who were once NOT God's people (only those of promise are God's people) come to God. God doesn't let them win the lottery or give them insider trading information to amass wealth. No, He compounds the gains by gaining people unto himself. For example here:

All Kedar’s flocks will be gathered to you,
the rams of Nebaioth will serve you;
they will be accepted as offerings on my altar,
and I will adorn my glorious temple.


Here, the first and second born of Ishmael, the Arabs, will be gathered to God. Largely, the Arabs are currently under the demonic rule of Islam yet it is prophesied that they will abandon their demonic god and turn to the Lord. When that happens all their riches (not just gold and silver but mostly their uniqueness in the Body of Christ) will benefit the whole house of God.

Let's move forward.

Sweet wine is understood to be new wine. New wine is typically sweeter. This is understood to be an increased harvest. Certainly, if that harvest occurs over the whole earth then multitudes no one could count would be included in the sweet wine.

"My people" should be understood to be "people of promise". Abraham (and his seed) are the inheritors of the world:

In Romans we read "It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith."

The priestly administration that secured the world for Abraham and his seed (meaning One Seed who is Christ Galatians 3:16, again going back to the tabernacle that is restored, a royal priesthood) is Melchizedek. This occurred 430 years before the law was given at Sinai. So, we are dealing with the people of Promise Israel NOT the people of natural DNA Israel. AS Paul wrote:

"For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed."

The children of promise are all who are contained in Christ, the High priest of the line of royal priests, the order of Melchizedek. This is the covenant that is being restored in the passage. Therefore, the lands that are given to them, the cities that are restored, are found in the whole earth. This is how complete the administration of Christ is: it covers the whole earth, a global kingdom.

To no longer be able to be uprooted requires the new earth.

Otherwise, God would undo, by His own hand, what He accomplished when the old heaven and old earth pass away:

This is in Revelation: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away..."

This is just a little ways further in the same passage: "“Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

We have come full circle back to the tabernacle of David, when God is in us and we are in Him... the fulfillment of the Jesus' prayer, our High Priest:

"...that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."

In Him, there is no Jew or Gentile. He is a New Man, having become One from the two. That's what we know from Paul's letter to the Ephesians:

"..so as to create in Himself one new man from the two (Jew and Gentile), thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross..."

Amen
Should add, you don't have to reply to my previous post, I think it best to leave it there
 
When did the following prophecy take place:
They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles UNTIL the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke21:24

How is my teaching related to your question?
 
When did the following prophecy take place:
They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles UNTIL the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke21:24

Jerusalem was trampled under foot by Titus around 70AD. Given our expanded understanding of "Gentiles" due to revelation, that of people who are not people of promise (not non-Jews in the flesh), Jerusalem is, to this day, ruled by Gentiles. Presumably this will continue until the Lord returns with all who are His.
 
Sometimes we will be mocked. Is that not what the Savior said would happen? Next, you say you are too busy. Well, you know if you are busy or not but if what we are saying is true then it is good for other people to hear it and we have to come up with a better way to say what you believe.

Acts 17:2 says that Paul AS WAS HIS CUSTOM went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbaths he REASONED WITH THEM [his fellow Jews] from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Christ,” he declared.…
At this time, Paul's custom was to go into the synagogues and proclaim the gospel even when they disputed his claims

As long as Christians communicate these different ideas about Israel will meet, and I guess we need to find a better way.
You seem to have some maturity, and I hope you will not mind if I present my bite size question to you.

My thoughts go back to the scene of the crime where UG and I got our wires crossed.

Zechariah 8:23: Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

I am aware that belief in a future fulfillment of this verse has become popular for the promotion of modern Israel.
I am also aware that the verse fits very well with what happened after Jesus was risen.
Most chapters in the book of Zechariah have a reference to the time of Jesus.
Here is the one from chapter 9:

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

This verse is very famous prophesy about Jesus, and as far as I know is not projected into future times by anyone.

I am not asking you to abandon support for political Zionism, but it troubles me that verses so often seem to be isolated from their context and used for political causes, just because they sound convenient.

My question is:

How do we determine which OT prophesies belong to the future and which to the past?
 
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You have to reconcile the revelation of "One new man" and "The Lion of the Tribe of Judah" to understand.

As I said, we retain the promises given to Judah; namely the right to rule as kingly rulers ("The scepter shall not pass from Judah"). So, in Christ, whose Body is made up of all who receive Him, we are co-heirs to the same promises.

It works like this: Judah, the man, is deceased. As a dead man he can no longer hold a scepter of rule. Furthermore, the "Lion of the tribe of Judah" refers to the eternal Christ - a being with no end or beginning. He always was, and is, and is to come. He was always the Lion of the tribe of Judah, even before Judah was born.

Judah appeared in time and space in his given time. His line was blessed with the right to rule namely in the manner he secured his own promise to return Benjamin.

Genesis 44:32 "For your servant became surety for the lad to my father, saying, ‘If I do not bring him back to you, then I shall bear the blame before my father forever.’"

This is juxtaposed against Reuben's promise to allow his own sons to be killed "Reuben spoke to his father, saying, “Kill my two sons if I do not bring him back to you; put him in my hands, and I will bring him back to you.”

So Judah, like Christ, promised to give his own life for the redemption of his brother. This was the spirit of Christ being spoken forth from Judah before the birth of Christ.

So, when the house of Judah is blessed with the royal scepter, it secured the reality that the Messiah had to come through Judah's line since the Messiah would be the "King of kings".

That's what Paul was teaching when he wrote this:

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Wait, Paul wrote "once Gentiles in the flesh"... aren't they still Gentiles and not Jews?
Let's read on...

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.

No, in Christ, we are not Gentiles. And the Jews are not Jews. Together we represent one new man.
And what do we gain by being in Christ?

18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Access to the Father. This goes back to eternity before flesh was made. We become a member of the beloved of God Who was One with the Father in the beginning. This reality is the answer to Jesus' prayer before His crucifixion:

This is Jesus: "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."

(Some may say "God does not share His glory with another" They are correct. BUT, in Christ, we are not another. We are His flesh and His bones.)

Jesus continued: “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world."

This goes back to eternity, from the foundation of the world: before Adam and Eve and Noah and Abram, etc... Redemption in Christ restores us to the relationship between the Son and Father that existed before creation.

Cliff's Notes version: The kingly rule of Judah was a spiritual quality of the eternal Christ. Judah appeared as a Hebrew man, but the Christ appears as the new man made up of Jew and Gentile. In Christ we obtain the inheritance of the Only Begotten Son, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, which is the Spiritual reality of Christ, the eternal Messiah.

@Magenta @Cameron143 @posthuman @Pilgrimshope

Blessings
Both dynamics are true.
You are making it "either...or", when I can say both are true.

...and both are true.
You are thinking your verses cancel out other verses.

Partial truth is deception.

Spurgeon said: "discernment is not knowing right from wrong. It is knowing right from partially right."
 
Where could we go if we were to pursue this debate further?
I could opine that Ruth Naomi Obed and Boaz all lived together in Bethlehem, and that Obed drank from Ruth's breast.
You could insist that as Obed was the heir he must be fed proper Jewish milk.
I could insist that it is already too late to un-Gentilize him because Ruth has already given birth to him and therefore the only option is to accept Ruth as a Jew.

Both of us would be arguing opinions and things that we do not know.

You may think that you have found a ground shaking theology there,
I respect your opinion but disagree.
You made the claim.
Now you are just shooting words at it.

I was wondering how Ruth and Boaz were not involved in the taking of the child.

I wanted to know how you centered on "took", and contested the child was given to Naomi.
....when it is implied the child was not just snatched away.

I don't see any profit in your objection and "correction".