Understanding apologetics

[Undergrace1]

No where does Rom 3:20-30 refer to the ten commandments as works of the law.

James tell us how we are saved and fits with Jesus' words. Works and works of the law must be different other you have a contradiction to resolve. Jesus himself violated the works of the law but not the TCs

Paul continually states you cannot be righteous/justified by works of the law/observing the law.
Why does he state this?
Once again, the legalistic law of rite, ritual and ceremony could faultlessly be obeyed. Law you can faultlessly obey you can in deed be justified by obeying. So, if there was no moral law you could be justified by the law, Jesus need not then have died at Calvary. So, when Paul continually states you cannot be justified by obeying the law, this is because of the moral law of the TC. Law Paul terms the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation(2Cor3:6-9)
Therefore, for the council of Trent to say salvation is of faith, baptism and obeying the TC, is not to understand Paul's message

 

[Nedsk]

Paul continually states you cannot be righteous/justified by works of the law/observing the law.
Why does he state this?
Once again, the legalistic law of rite, ritual and ceremony could faultlessly be obeyed. Law you can faultlessly obey you can in deed be justified by obeying. So, if there was no moral law you could be justified by the law, Jesus need not then have died at Calvary. So, when Paul continually states you cannot be justified by obeying the law, this is because of the moral law of the TC. Law Paul terms the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation(2Cor3:6-9)
Therefore, for the council of Trent to say salvation is of faith, baptism and obeying the TC, is not to understand Paul's message

The works of the law are the 613 laws that governed the lives of the jews. Works of the laws, washing your hands, sacrifices etc etc won't save but works complete faith. Ah James comes and saves the day for us. Nothing Jesus says violates the TCs

 

[Jordon]

Paul continually states you cannot be righteous/justified by works of the law/observing the law.
Why does he state this?
Once again, the legalistic law of rite, ritual and ceremony could faultlessly be obeyed. Law you can faultlessly obey you can in deed be justified by obeying. So, if there was no moral law you could be justified by the law, Jesus need not then have died at Calvary. So, when Paul continually states you cannot be justified by obeying the law, this is because of the moral law of the TC. Law Paul terms the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation(2Cor3:6-9)
Therefore, for the council of Trent to say salvation is of faith, baptism and obeying the TC, is not to understand Paul's message

If I'm understanding you correctly if there was no inner moral law from God in your conscience, then you could be justified by the law only .

 

[Undergrace1]

The works of the law are the 613 laws that governed the lives of the jews. Works of the laws, washing your hands, sacrifices etc etc won't save but works complete faith. Ah James comes and saves the day for us. Nothing Jesus says violates the TCs

Did you read what I wrote? Every time Paul says you cannot be justified/righteous by obeying the law, this is because of the TC

 

[Undergrace1]

If I'm understanding you correctly if there was no inner moral law from God in your conscience, then you could be justified by the law only .

No, because the law was not placed in the hearts and mind of those under the old covenant, but they still could not be justified by obeying the law. But the inner law is very important to this subject, and I hope will soon be discussed

 

[Jordon]

No, because the law was not placed in the hearts and mind of those under the old covenant, but they still could not be justified by obeying the law. But the inner law is very important to this subject, and I hope will soon be discussed

I was discussing the inner moral law that all people are graced with internally in the conscience Romans 2:15 this is speaking about unsaved people and saved people

Romans 2:15

New International Version



15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

I would have believed this moral law never leaves a person whether saved or unsaved.

 

[Jordon]

No, because the law was not placed in the hearts and mind of those under the old covenant, but they still could not be justified by obeying the law. But the inner law is very important to this subject, and I hope will soon be discussed

Here's a teaching from a good teacher

R.C. Sproul connected Romans 2:15—which speaks of the "work of the law written on their hearts"—to the Ten Commandments by arguing that the moral law of God is universal, eternal, and accessible to all mankind through conscience, not just those with the written Scriptures.
Key points of Sproul's connection include:
Universality of the Moral Law: Sproul taught that the moral law, exemplified by the Ten Commandments, reflects God's unchanging character and is binding on all people in all places at all times. Conscience as Witness: In his commentary on Romans 2, Sproul explained that even those without the Bible (Gentiles) possess an inward "factory-equipped conscience" that knows right from wrong, acting as a witness to God’s law written on their hearts The Function of the Law: The law written on the heart acts as a restraint against sin and causes the conscience to either accuse or defend a person, leaving humanity without excuse before God. Distinction from Ceremonial Law: Sproul differentiated the moral law (Ten Commandments) from the Old Testament's dietary or ceremonial laws, noting that the latter were for ancient Israel, while the moral law remains eternally relevant. Foundation for Guilt: Because this law is written in the heart, violations of the moral principles (such as lying or stealing) are not merely breaking man-made rules, but constitute rebellion against God.
In essence, Sproul used Romans 2:15 to argue that the essence of the Ten Commandments is embedded in human nature, confirming the guilt of all humanity and establishing the necessity of the Gospel.

 

[Undergrace1]

I was discussing the inner moral law that all people are graced with internally in the conscience Romans 2:15 this is speaking about unsaved people and saved people

Romans 2:15

New International Version



15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

I would have believed this moral law never leaves a person whether saved or unsaved.

This is a response to both posts. Once I got saved, the most noticeable difference in me was, I became aware of imperfections/sin before God in a real and profound way. Things I had previously done and thought little of, now left me feeling much guilt because I did them. It truly was a cut off in my life from before I got saved, it really was profound. . In my heart and mind, my most inward parts I could not escape my shortcomings before God, and they were a burden to me that got worse overe time.
So I could not equate a moral law within me prior to getting saved, in any way equal to the law inside of me once I got saved. Hope that makes sense

 

[Undergrace1]

The works of the law are the 613 laws that governed the lives of the jews. Works of the laws, washing your hands, sacrifices etc etc won't save but works complete faith. Ah James comes and saves the day for us. Nothing Jesus says violates the TCs

James in verse 24 is NOT talking about the TC, which is what our conversation should be focusing on, for it is that point in my original post that brought a response from you
I could give you twenty verses of Paul’s that all state we can have no righteousness of obeying the law. So it would not be wise to try and bring twenty verses to fit one, but rather the one to be in line with the twenty.
‘’’What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? ‘’’
Absolutely, and at the end I will give you an example
‘’’You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.’’’
Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness years before he was prepared to sacrifice Isaac. So, he was already righteous in God’s sight. James is giving an example of a person’s faith seen to bring results, but it has nothing to do with the TC!
A genuine faith brings the evidence of results. A faith that justifies will always bring results, and a faith that is not genuine will not bring results. So no results, no genuine faith, in that respect the two are linked, and unless you want to bring James into contention with Paul’s core message, that is the way it needs to be accepted. Paul agrees with that, scripture can be supplied if you need it.
Example. A man beats his wife, gets drunk every night, has multiple affairs and is a habitual thief. He professes to have gotten saved. And, under Paul’s message he would be instantly justified even in that condition under a righteousness of faith in Christ. But what if, three months later say there has been no change whatsoever in the man, he still beats his wife, still gets drunk every night, still has multiple affairs, and is still a habitual thief? He never had saving faith to begin with, for faith in this respect without works is dead.

 

[Jordon]

This is a response to both posts. Once I got saved, the most noticeable difference in me was, I became aware of imperfections/sin before God in a real and profound way. Things I had previously done and thought little of, now left me feeling much guilt because I did them. It truly was a cut off in my life from before I got saved, it really was profound. . In my heart and mind, my most inward parts I could not escape my shortcomings before God, and they were a burden to me that got worse overe time.
So I could not equate a moral law within me prior to getting saved, in any way equal to the law inside of me once I got saved. Hope that makes sense

That would be the same understanding for the sermon on the opening post,

Even know God was showing his people through Moses, they could have assurance it also took many miracles to convince them.

Before they could grow in belief and believe the God they where being asked to follow was the true God. Ie leaving Egypt.

But without some kind of inner moral law how could they even be convicted ?

 

[Undergrace1]

That would be the same understanding for the sermon on the opening post,

Even know God was showing his people through Moses, they could have assurance it also took many miracles to convince them.

Before they could grow in belief and believe the God they where being asked to follow was the true God. Ie leaving Egypt.

But without some kind of inner moral law how could they even be convicted ?

Everyone has a particular moral compass they live by, and it varies from person to person. And everyone is born with that. However, man's natural m oral compass, in my view is not to the standard God's laws are set at.
IE, would mans moral compass tell him it was wrong to desire something another owned if he simply desired it but no more?
In my view, there would have to be a difference between the two, based on my experience when I got saved

 

[Jordon]

Everyone has a particular moral compass they live by, and it varies from person to person. And everyone is born with that. However, man's natural m oral compass, in my view is not to the standard God's laws are set at.
IE, would mans moral compass tell him it was wrong to desire something another owned if he simply desired it but no more?
In my view, there would have to be a difference between the two, based on my experience when I got saved

Ok so if a man's moral compass was something they live by alone before being saved How could they experience guilt when being convicted by Gods law.

I'm sure what your describing is a growing awareness to the inner moral law upon being saved,

Knowing right from wrong etc, lying stealing.

Where talking about not you learning right for wrong by yourself but being made to feel Guilt by God, before being saved and after.

 

[Undergrace1]

Ok so if a man's moral compass was something they live by alone before being saved How could they experience guilt when being convicted by Gods law.

I'm sure what your describing is a growing awareness to the inner moral law upon being saved,

Knowing right from wrong etc, lying stealing.

Where talking about not you learning right for wrong by yourself but being made to feel Guilt by God, before being saved and after.

Because at conversion God writes applicable law in the mind and places it on the heart of a believer

 

[Jordon]

Because at conversion God writes applicable law in the mind and places it on the heart of a believer

I think where going of track here.

The moral law of God im talking about being wrote in every single conscience, as in an act of grace by God, before being saved is the works of the law, knowing not to commit that wrong doing.

 

[Undergrace1]

I think where going of track here.

The moral law of God im talking about being wrote in every single conscience, as in an act of grace by God, before being saved is the works of the law, knowing not to commit that wrong doing.

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[b]
17 Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more Heb 10:15-18

Not everyone is in covenant are they, only those who are in covenant get the law written in their minds and placed on their hearts, so it must be different than before you get saved

 

[Jordon]

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[b]
17 Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more Heb 10:15-18

Not everyone is in covenant are they, only those who are in covenant get the law written in their minds and placed on their hearts, so it must be different than before you get saved

I think this is where lots of confusion sets in,

Leading up to the final days of Moses is when all the Israelites people of Israel where circumcised in heart

Deuteronomy 30:6

New International Version


Intended for all the Israelites people roughly 2 million people.

Whether every individual existing then experienced this circumcision at this time is a matter of faith. But before that it's widely believed they where blessed with an inherent moral law based on principles etc.

And it's widely believed all people of today are blessed with moral principles of the law , especially my reformed church, as they grow there hearts get circumcised by Gods word,

This all happens before a new heart is given.


Deuteronomy 30:6

New International Version

6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

This is Just before the final stages of there journey roughly before they entered the promised land just months before.

But before they entered the promised land,

lets call it 2 million people grew in Gods mercy more so than they did before, through being graced with God's morally law inwardly. more than they had done before this circumcision, to there conscience, of knowing right from wrong. was more so after less so before.

They expressed kindness obedience worship prayer before the circumcision 2 million people did that for 40 years. But now they would do it more so in the final few months of the desert.

Right after this circumcision like 3 months after, 1 million people got left in the desert but it was more like 600.000 people, the rest went into the promised land

The ones that got left in the wilderness, we know they may have died, but we don't know how they died. And it's a matter of faith if they to where left with a circumcised heart.

Roughly 200 year later after the circumcision in the promised land now, there's talk of. Being given a new heart. Thought to be a prophecy of the future for Christ to change your heart all Togeather,

So now if all them people got circumcised in the heart then in some way,

It's a matter of faith whether all people today are not blessed with moral law first before circumcised in the heart in some way. Before a new heart.

I go with all people of today have an inner moral law blessing first.

Then a circumcision then a new heart.

And my faith is set with that one

 

[Undergrace1]

I think this is where lots of confusion sets in,

Leading up to the final days of Moses is when all the Israelites people of Israel where circumcised in heart



6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

But when does this circumcision take place, in the dessert? No"
When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes[a] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. 6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. Deut30:1-6
It didnt happen in the dessert, its part of the OT prophecies concerning the Israelites being returned to the land after their exile:
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. Ezekiel36:26-28

 

[Jordon]

But when does this circumcision take place, in the dessert? No"
When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes[a] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. 6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. Deut30:1-6
It didnt happen in the dessert, its part of the OT prophecies concerning the Israelites being returned to the land after their exile:
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. Ezekiel36:26-28

Deuteronomy 30:6 happened roughly about 3 months before entering the promised land, they were some of the last words of Moses, did Moses enter the promise land ?

where was they when this circumcision took place ? Is seen as the wilderness, in my meaning the desert.

It makes no difference and doesn't rule out what I said m.

The fact is before the circumcision 2 million people where expressing affection and mercy, from God's blessing to them, known as the universal blessing to all mankind of today of common grace, to all mankind.

It's where a person can know right from wrong before being saved.

The new heart is future prophecy after circumcision and circumcision is a process of that which flows out of the inner common grace blessing

All of which being the process of grace alone being the first step of growing in his faith alone as in his mercy alone, before growing in Christ alone where your gifted with a measure of Christs faith alone.

 

[Undergrace1]

Deuteronomy 30:6 happened roughly about 3 months before entering the promised land, they were some of the last words of Moses, did Moses enter the promise land ?

where was they when this circumcision took place ? Is seen as the wilderness, in my meaning the desert.

It makes no difference and doesn't rule out what I said m.

The fact is before the circumcision 2 million people where expressing affection and mercy, from God's blessing to them, known as the universal blessing to all mankind of today of common grace, to all mankind.

It's where a person can know right from wrong before being saved.

The new heart is future prophecy after circumcision and circumcision is a process of that which flows out of the inner common grace blessing

All of which being the process of grace alone being the first step of growing in his faith alone as in his mercy alone, before growing in Christ alone where your gifted with a measure of Christs faith alone.

No, you have to read it in conjuncture with the previous five verses, Moses is speaking of the Israelites being banished from the land, and what would happen when God brought them back. How were their hearts circumcised in the dessert? God told Moses the Israelites were a stiff necked heathen people who would soon dessert him once they reached the promised land. Their history as a nation was, most of the time rebelling against God, turning away from him, then crying out to God for help, he delivered them from their enemies, then they turned away again. That is not people with circumcised hearts
In ezekiel36:16-28 Ezekiel is prophecying of when God would bring the Israelites back from exile to their biblical homeland, at that time God would put a new heart within them, not before. That is in line with Moses words

 

[Jordon]

No, you have to read it in conjuncture with the previous five verses, Moses is speaking of the Israelites being banished from the land, and what would happen when God brought them back. How were their hearts circumcised in the dessert? God told Moses the Israelites were a stiff necked heathen people who would soon dessert him once they reached the promised land. Their history as a nation was, most of the time rebelling against God, turning away from him, then crying out to God for help, he delivered them from their enemies, then they turned away again. That is not people with circumcised hearts
In ezekiel36:16-28 Ezekiel is prophecying of when God would bring the Israelites back from exile to their biblical homeland, at that time God would put a new heart within them, not before. That is in line with Moses words

roughly there is about a 700 year gap between Deuteronomy 30:6 and Ezekiel 36

The exile you refering it is when they where held captive in Babylon, a consequence of there disobedience.

He then spoke about a future promise to a spiritual new heart and profound change of heart and mind , meaning Christ points to a definite future covenant.

Deuteronomy 30:6 can be seen as a renewal and change of the existing covenant at that time.
And it says the lord your God will circumcise your heart, which also speaks of now. It doesn't say I will give a new heart like Ezekiel does.

They are Distinct to each other they can't be considered the same passage tho they explore similar themes.