Ruth 4:16 And Naomi took the child, and laid it in her bosom, and became nurse unto it.
A lot of grandmothers do that.
I feel sorry for these people, it sounds like they can't even do a poo without someone building a theology on it.
Does the Parable of the Wedding Banquet confirm the abrogation of the Israelites and invitation to the Gentiles?
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Ruth 4:16 And Naomi took the child, and laid it in her bosom, and became nurse unto it.
A lot of grandmothers do that.
I feel sorry for these people, it sounds like they can't even do a poo without someone building a theology on it.
Correct, Naomi would be like modern day Israelites who are redeemed by the Savior who is neither Jew nor Gentile.
The difference, of course, is that Naomi pined for the appearing of her redeemer whereas the Jews in Jesus’ day rejected Him and still do.
I would never build my approach to Biblical theology on an interpretation of prophesy.
Abraham and Sarah did that, and they concluded that they must have a son from Hagar, otherwise God could never bring the Messiah to the world (Galatians 4).
Having said that I will give you my overview of Zechariah 14 although I have only recently changed my view of some verses and expect to make mistakes.
I know that some interpret this into the time of Antichrist, but I think that it has its fulfillment from shortly after the building of Nehemiah's wall to the beginning of Christs kingdom.
I think we are in Christs kingdom now.
v.2 From Zerubbabel's restoration until the time of Jesus Jerusalem was subject to many savage attacks, but at first were privileged with the protection of God.
Here the church is warned that God's hand of protection is going to be removed in part for a time.
The Roman empire was a gathering of nations, and it is indicated here that God was involved in gathering them.
It is under Rome that this particular attack on Jerusalem is to happen.
v.4 and 5 I used to accept a metaphorical interpretation of this, until I read a link provided by commenter CR that presents evidence that a landslide of the once much bigger mount of olives together with the earthquake described indeed happened.
Maybe when he gets back he can show you that one, if you ask nicely?
Vs.6 and 7 Sounds like the signs at the crucifixion?
Vs.8 The language from here on becomes metaphorical and appropriately so, because the subject is the spiritual kingdom of Christ.
The gospel is referred to as"living water" in many other parts of the Bible.
Here are a few: Isiah 44:3, Isiah 55:1, Ezekiel 36:25, Ezekiel 47:1, Jeremiah 2:13, John 4:10.
Under the kingdom of Christ heavenly Jerusalem becomes a known reality, and is referred to in v.11 in that context with God's protection.
The verses continue in language understandable to the church of Zechariah's time.
v.12 I do not think this is about a nuclear Armageddon as some say, but it speaks of God's complete protection of heavenly Jerusalem, and the utter futility of opposing it.
Will become physical reality in the final judgement.
V.13 to the end: We are reading about the controversies of the gospel and the blessings of it spoken in terms understandable to the church of Zechariah's time. The "Canaanite" in v. 21 means the unbeliever.
U
Undergrace1
Guest
Thank you for your thoughts, but whenever I have read verse twelve I do think it is descriptive of what happened at Hiroshima. There's an awful lot of plain texts that seem to all be saying the same thing, you are welcome to keep explaining the texts placed before you, I do find your responses fascinating. Can you tell me when all the following took place?
This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Just as I had determined to bring disaster on you and showed no pity when your ancestors angered me,” says the Lord Almighty, 15 “so now I have determined to do good again to Jerusalem and Judah. Do not be afraid. 1 Zech8:14&15
This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, 21 and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty. I myself am going.’ 22 And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.”
23 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’” 20-23
“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman
and the planter by the one treading grapes.
New wine will drip from the mountains
and flow from all the hills,
14 and I will bring my people Israel back from exile.[f]
“They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the Lord your God.
Amos 9:13-15
The Savior is Jewish.
You left out that the child is given to Naomi so that her lineage may continue.
We see Paul refer to his Jewish ethnicity, even as a born again believer.
Ever seen what RT adherents do to the 144,000 ?
It is bizarre.
1) They magically are not 144,000
2)And the bible is wrong about them being Jews.
3) And the tribe dynamic is "anything but tribes"
The Bible could not be any plainer about a Jewish second harvest.
In the 7 year tribulation, it is called "Jacobs trouble", which is, "Israel's trouble."
Once that replacement theology path is Opened up, it slams into Several impossibilities
Boaz was not the Messiah in her thoughts.
Boaz and the first next of Kin were Jewish kinsman.
So Boaz, through redeeming her land, was the kinsman redeemer willing to include Ruth.
You are partially correct.
The entire picture, must be included.
Spurgeon once said ,"discernment is not knowing right from wrong. It is knowing right from almost right".
Actually the child was given to Naomi because her lineage was wiped out....and the child would go on to be an important key in the leneage of Jesus .
I am over 70 and I have never seen a granny handed to grandson to nurse.
never heard of it either.
No, Naomi would have been partially blinded to the full truth by means of the Mosaic law. Paul, a full Jew, said as much:
“Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded.”
Paul goes on the reveal that the veil is only taken away by Christ:
“For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.”
Perhaps Naomi could only see that her redeemer was an Israelite BUT it was his union with a gentile woman that was required for her redemption. Nevertheless, she welcomed the day of her deliverance. The Jews should have seen this but could not because of their bias. Kinda like yours.
Christ is no longer Jewish.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
And:
16 “Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.”
To do so otherwise is to present a different Christ.
Almost all of the Reformers (with a very few exceptions persecuted the Jews stripping them of their rights as citizens which subjected them to many hardships. They also persecuted those they labelled "heretics" such as the Anabaptists who were drowned and burned at the stake primarily because they refused to baptize INFANTS but instead baptized only REPENTANT ADULTS.
Ruth 4:16 And Naomi TOOK the child, and laid it in her bosom, and became nurse unto it.
The Bible does not say that Naomi was handed the baby or that it was for that reason.
Either I have missed something in the verses or that part came from you.
If you can show me relevant verses I am grateful, but please understand that I do not go by opinions.
The parable could be taken that way but there were more people involved than just the first group that was invited. For instance there were many that were able to enter the Banquet because they were needy and poor and had nothing else. Were these merely Jews or did they represent anyone who heard the words of Jesus and were drawn by their inner hunger for righteousness?
In the Beatitudes, Jesus said: 6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
(Matthew 5:6)
Was this promise only for Jews who "hungered and thirsted after righteousness" or was it for ANYONE who wanted God?
The Bible also says: "On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood up and called out in a loud voice,
“If ANYONE is THIRSTY, let him COME TO ME and DRINK. Whoever BELIEVES in Me, as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him.’”
(John 7:37-38)
First, does "anyone" refer to Jews only? This seems unlikely. Rather, the promise of ever-renewing eternal life conditioned upon faith in the Messiah Himself. This was not a call to moral reform nor did it entail a return to the Mosaic Covenant This was the brand new Good News of the Kingdom of God. Jesus was offering Himself as the source of life to anyone who believed. Already Jesus was extending the promise of life far beyond the Jews.
Isaiah had said the good news would come by the Messiah and the Baptist had already revealed the identity of this Messiah who he referred to as "the Lamb who would takes away the sin of the world" This matched the Prophecy of Isaiah:
…6Therefore My people will know My name; therefore they will know on that day that I am He who speaks. Here I am!”
(Isaiah 52:7)
When comparing the parable to the unfolding of the NT, I agree with this explanation.
Yes, Jerusalem was later destroyed.
It was within the house of Israel that the invitations of the prophets were given, and within Israel that they were killed.
It was also within the house of Israel that Jesus went and found the twelve disciples.
The 3000 souls saved on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) were mainly Jewish men (Acts 2:5).
So we can see that the hiring and firing originally occurred within the house of Israel under Jesus, and although Gentiles were afterward invited too.
Some Israelites seem to indeed have been abrogated and some Gentiles indeed invited, but the focus is on the wedding garment of faith, not on the ethnicity of the person.
I see the early controversy around the Gospel of Christ as a matter of regime change within the house of Israel, not as the beginning of a new kingdom.
I see the Gentile contingent of it as the ones who "hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew" (Zechariah 8:23) asking the way to God.
Those who are faithful are fully grafted into the olive tree of true Israel with Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
Galatians 3:29.
U
Undergrace1
Guest
True, but if God decides, at a time yet to come to turn Israelites enmasse to his son and bring them to true faith and reveal his son to them, if he has such a plan, he has every right to do it, because He is God Almighty
Zech8:23
I believe there should come a time, when we seek to theologise away, multiple scriptural prophecies all saying the same thing, we should stand back and ask ourselves, could I be wrong?
I can see that from after the time Rom 11 was written that God had a remnant of people from the Israelites that He intends to save to faith in Jesus.
Who these people are and how it will happen (or has happened) I do not know.
You ask a good question when you ask 'what time did this happen".
Asking this has nothing to do with theologising anything away.
I would expect people who genuinely want to know the truth about a prophesy to first ask:
When was this word given?
Who first received it? What were their circumstances? How was this relevant to them?
A good sign of those who seek to make politics out of a prophesy is that they neglect to seek the answers to common sense questions.
Of course Prophets will often speak of things that are to happen after the time, but if the answers to these questions can be found, you are on the road to understanding.
In Zachariah 8 there are some clues given to the first question, although some of them are also in chapter 7.
7:1 says "it came to pass in the fourth year of king Darius, that the word of the Lord came unto Zechariah in the fourth day of the ninth month"
That is helpful, given that Zechariah writes out these prophesies in chronological order.
The subject matter of 7 also confirms that the captivity is about to end.
So now in 8 we find ourselves in Jerusalem (v.3), so a reasonable guess is it is early days there for Zerubabbel's remnant.
Confirmation of this can be found in v.9 which speaks of building the foundations of the Temple.
Now we know that this word is coming to a people who are used to being attacked and are in an apparently dangerous and vulnerable situation.
God intends to do them good, and gives them encouraging promises so that they might do their building work without fear.
As in other Zechariah prophesies of encouragement the time of the gospel is also referred to, as this is the reason that God is doing good to Israel in the first place.
As I mentioned in my previous post the congregation of Jesus was in the beginning almost entirely Jewish.
How people can call it a "Gentile Church" is beyond my understanding.
With all this in mind, it is not hard for us to understand that the fulfillment of v.23 began in the time of the gospel.
We would not get much if we asked Ahab to lead us to God, so best to be sure that God is with the Jew before doing the asking.
It seems that you and I are grabbing hold of Zechariah at this time.
Best to approach his words with commonsense, or meeting him could be embarrassing.
U
Undergrace1
Guest
Best to approach his words with common sense?
Best not to approach his words with common sense I would say, as Paul says:
The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise are futile 1Cor3:20
Best to rely on the Holy Spirit to lead you into truth when reading the bible, the Holy Spirit who showed the prophets what to wrote down!
They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles UNTIL(UNTIL) the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke21:24
Going to great lengths to overturn so much of the plainly written word, is what the natural mind does/common sense, but the natural mind does not lead into spiritual truth, lets turn somewhere else, Im sure your common sense will not fail you:
In those days and at that time,
when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all nations
and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat.[b]
There I will put them on trial
for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel,
because they scattered my people among the nations
and divided up my land.
3 They cast lots for my people
and traded boys for prostitutes;
they sold girls for wine to drink.
4 “Now what have you against me, Tyre and Sidon and all you regions of Philistia? Are you repaying me for something I have done? If you are paying me back, I will swiftly and speedily return on your own heads what you have done. 5 For you took my silver and my gold and carried off my finest treasures to your temples.[c] 6 You sold the people of Judah and Jerusalem to the Greeks, that you might send them far from their homeland.
7 “See, I am going to rouse them out of the places to which you sold them, and I will return on your own heads what you have done. 8 I will sell your sons and daughters to the people of Judah, and they will sell them to the Sabeans, a nation far away.” The Lord has spoken.
9 Proclaim this among the nations:
Prepare for war!
Rouse the warriors!
Let all the fighting men draw near and attack.
10 Beat your plowshares into swords
and your pruning hooks into spears.
Let the weakling say,
“I am strong!”
11 Come quickly, all you nations from every side,
and assemble there.
Bring down your warriors, Lord!
12 “Let the nations be roused;
let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat,
for there I will sit
to judge all the nations on every side.
13 Swing the sickle,
for the harvest is ripe.
Come, trample the grapes,
for the winepress is full
and the vats overflow—
so great is their wickedness!”
14 Multitudes, multitudes
in the valley of decision!
For the day of the Lord is near
in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and moon will be darkened,
and the stars no longer shine.
16 The Lord will roar from Zion
and thunder from Jerusalem;
the earth and the heavens will tremble.
But the Lord will be a refuge for his people,
a stronghold for the people of Israel.
Blessings for God’s People
17 “Then you will know that I, the Lord your God,
dwell in Zion, my holy hill.
Jerusalem will be holy;
never again will foreigners invade her.
18 “In that day the mountains will drip new wine,
and the hills will flow with milk;
all the ravines of Judah will run with water.
A fountain will flow out of the Lord’s house
and will water the valley of acacias.[d]
19 But Egypt will be desolate,
Edom a desert waste,
because of violence done to the people of Judah,
in whose land they shed innocent blood.
20 Judah will be inhabited forever
and Jerusalem through all generations.
21 Shall I leave their innocent blood unavenged?
No, I will not.”
The Lord dwells in Zion!
Joel ch3
Sorry if my efforts have not been of much value to you.
I will try to adopt a less "commonsense" approach to this one:
V.13 means kill anyone you "feel led" to kill.