Understanding unconditional election

[JimiSurvivor]

This makes you making reformed faith deformingly acceptable then, and I should accept my reformed faith is deformed

I wonder what helped you choose and decide your perfect excuse

So this verse indicates God always gets what he wants


Isaiah 46:10

New International Version



10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’

 

[decipher]

I've answered your question twice already. This is the third time.


PaulThomson said:
You asked:
Why would Jesus want and desire to do his God's will?

I answered:

Because that was the plan of God when the Son and the Father and the Holy Spirit agreed to sending the Son into the world in the form of a human zygote to grow into a baby boy, and to grow up into a man, who would continue to love all mankind even while He allowed other humans to kill him. The crucifixion was the Son's idea. Why would he not want/desire/will to do what He had planned with the rest of the Godhead to do in order to convince mankind that God really wants to reconcile with mankind? But by the same token, being a human being subject to the horrors of excruciating pain through torture, why would He not also, on an instinctive level, want/desire/ will to avoid going to the cross?

What in my answer is incompatible with any scripture?

The reason Jesus wants to do the Father's will is because the Father's presence, mind, heart, and power resides in Jesus, and Jesus wants to show his love to the Father by obeying Him.

 

[decipher]

I have a good teaching in this by a good teacher to

John 3:16 and Man’s Ability to Choose God

It is ironic that in the same chapter, indeed in the same context, in which our Lord teaches the utter necessity of rebirth to even see the kingdom, let alone choose it, non-Reformed views find one of their main proof texts to argue that fallen man retains a small island of ability to choose Christ. It is John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

What does this famous verse teach about fallen man’s ability to choose Christ? The answer, simply, is nothing. The argument used by non-Reformed people is that the text teaches that everybody in the world has it in their power to accept or reject Christ. A careful look at the text reveals, however, that it teaches nothing of the kind. What the text teaches is that everyone who believes in Christ will be saved. Whoever does A (believes) will receive B (everlasting life). The text says nothing, absolutely nothing, about who will ever believe. It says nothing about fallen man’s natural moral ability. Reformed people and non-Reformed people both heartily agree that all who believe will be saved. They heartily disagree about who has the ability to believe.

Some may reply, “All right. The text does not explicitly teach that fallen men have the ability to choose Christ without being reborn first, but it certainly implies that.” I am not willing to grant that the text even implies such a thing. However, even if it did it would make no difference in the debate. Why not? Our rule of interpreting Scripture is that implications drawn from the Scripture must always be subordinate to the explicit teaching of Scripture. We must never, never, never reverse this to subordinate the explicit teaching of Scripture to possible implications drawn from Scripture. This rule is shared by both Reformed and non-Reformed thinkers.

As long as he remains in the flesh, unregenerate, he will never choose Christ.​

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https://share.google/cZsKTaiOfAT3Aqdch​

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I asked AI: From John 3: 16, if A is the phrase "everyone who believes in him" and B is the phrase "will not perish", can this scripture be interpreted as not a conditional statement but as those who will not perish are believers?
AI reviewed 15 sources and came up with the following: Yes , it can be interpreted that way, and the Greek grammar gives some support for reading it as a description of a group (the non-perishing ones are exactly the believers), not just a bare condition.
The phrase "everyone who believes in him" translate literaly "every believing one", with the Greek word for "every believing one as a present participle functioning like a noun (the believer).
Many grammarians note this can be rendered "the believer" or "the believing one," which sounds more like a description of a class of people than a one-time "if you do X, then Y" condition.
So, reading your A= "everyone who believes in him" and B= "will not perish," John 3: 16 can legitimately be taken not only as"if A, then B", but also as "those in B (the non-perishing ) are exactly those in A (the believers).

 

[GWH]

Understanding U is easy; it means God is unfair/unjust/unrighteous/unloving.
IF = MFW = no U means God does not show favoritism/is fair/just, etc.
Take your pick.

 

[decipher]

Understanding U is easy; it means God is unfair/unjust/unrighteous/unloving.
IF = MFW = no U means God does not show favoritism/is fair/just, etc.
Take your pick.

????

 

[decipher]

RC Sproul was a Calvinist --

AI

R.C. Sproul (1939-2017) was a prominent American theologian, author, and pastor known for being a staunch Calvinist, deeply rooted in Reformed theology, emphasizing doctrines like predestination and limited atonement, viewing himself as a successor to John Calvin, though he taught across various Reformed and Presbyterian institutions.

Theology: Sproul strongly affirmed core Calvinistic tenets, including the sovereignty of God in salvation, unconditional election, and Christ's specific atonement for the elect.


I say ---God wants all people saved ----God does not choose some for Heaven and some for Hell as the Calvinist think -----Scripture refutes that theory -----with this one scripture -----

View attachment 284452

God Almighty can do anything He wants. If He desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, then all men would be saved and there would be no need for a savior. This cannot be the truth. The truth is that no human deserves to be saved and justice has to be upheld in God's kingdom. There are spiritual beings who are observing how God is dealing with humanity's imperfection. All humans are imperfect and God's Justice demands demands that all be condemned. If He condemns all, He would be merciless. If He saves all, He would be allowing disobedience and imperfection in His kingdom. To demonstrate His Justice and Mercy, He saves a few by forgiving their sins and perfecting them. Jesus the Lord and God of our reality died to save all men, but the Almighty God the Father who is the Lord and God of all realities including ours, chooses who He will save.. 1 Tim 2: 4 cannot be referring to the Almighty God.

 

[GWH]

God Almighty can do anything He wants. If He desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, then all men would be saved and there would be no need for a savior. This cannot be the truth. The truth is that no human deserves to be saved and justice has to be upheld in God's kingdom. There are spiritual beings who are observing how God is dealing with humanity's imperfection. All humans are imperfect and God's Justice demands demands that all be condemned. If He condemns all, He would be merciless. If He saves all, He would be allowing disobedience and imperfection in His kingdom. To demonstrate His Justice and Mercy, He saves a few by forgiving their sins and perfecting them. Jesus the Lord and God of our reality died to save all men, but the Almighty God the Father who is the Lord and God of all realities including ours, chooses who He will save.. 1 Tim 2: 4 cannot be referring to the Almighty God.

God DOES desire all to be saved per 1Tim. 2:3-4! IF? This cannot be true?!
It certainly can, and the reason all need the Savior is because God also desires for His will to be resistible, which all do (Rom. 3:23).
MFW is what it means to be created as humans in God's image rather than as animals or robots.

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (Deut. 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God.

The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (Gal. 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (Isa. 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (Gal. 6:7-9, Heb. 9:27-28). Evil people grieve God and punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail. This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge) who enforce the rules.

The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance, but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain ultimate perfect justice. It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (MT 5:38), after which their souls are destroyed forever (per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14).

 

[studentoftheword]

the Almighty God the Father who is the Lord and God of all realities including ours, chooses who He will save.. 1 Tim 2: 4 cannot be referring to the Almighty God.

You can think that ---but the scripture makes it very clear -----but your showing you don'y believe the scripture ------so you can't believe some scripture and throw out other scripture ----you either believe all scripture or you believe none of it ------

you can't change the Scripture to suit your twisted thinking ------

Your saying people do not have free will to choose to accept Jesus or reject Jesus ---your saying that God chooses to send people to Hell and that is False Doctrine ----

-We send ourselves to HELL for Rejecting Jesus Christ ---who took our Sin upon Himself -------

Your Blaming God for your own choice to believe Human False Doctrine from a Human False Calvinism Religion -who has twisted the Scripture in Romans 9 ----and other scripture ----that Calvin misinterpreted and made up his own Doctrine to ------

AI Overview



Predestination is seen as "wrong" by critics because

it challenges human free will, implies an unjust God who predetermines some to damnation, contradicts scripture about God's desire for all to be saved,

disempowers individuals by negating the impact of their choices, and makes evangelism seem pointless.

Critics argue it portrays God as a cruel dictator, not a loving Father, where real love and moral responsibility become meaningless if destinies are fixed before birth, say critics of predestination.

Core Objections to Predestination

Challenges Free Will: It suggests human choices and actions don't truly matter, as God has already decided eternal outcomes, reducing people to puppets.

Questions God's Justice & Love: If God predetermines some for hell, it's seen as unjust and sadistic, contradicting the idea of a loving, good God who wants everyone saved (1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9)
.
Contradicts Scripture: Opponents point to verses showing God's universal desire for salvation, arguing these conflict with a selective predestination.

Disempowering & Demotivating: Believing one's future is set can feel hopeless; the idea of shaping one's own destiny through choice is more empowering.

Makes Evangelism Illogical: If salvation is solely predestined, preaching the Gospel to everyone seems like dangling false hope, notes this article from The Oops of Calvinism.

Reduces Moral Accountability: If sin isn't a free choice, humans can't be held responsible for it, and God wouldn't punish them for involuntary acts,.


Alternative Perspectives

Many theological views emphasize God's sovereignty while upholding human free will, suggesting God has foreknowledge but doesn't cause every choice.

Some traditions see God as working with human choice, not overriding it, allowing for genuine love and relationship,.


I say ----Calvinist Put God in a Box and Make HIM responsible because we Humans don't like taking the Blame for our own Bad Choices in this fallen world -----

 

[Jordon]

You can think that ---but the scripture makes it very clear -----but your showing you don'y believe the scripture ------so you can't believe some scripture and throw out other scripture ----you either believe all scripture or you believe none of it ------

you can't change the Scripture to suit your twisted thinking ------

Your saying people do not have free will to choose to accept Jesus or reject Jesus ---your saying that God chooses to send people to Hell and that is False Doctrine ----

-We send ourselves to HELL for Rejecting Jesus Christ ---who took our Sin upon Himself -------

Your Blaming God for your own choice to believe Human False Doctrine from a Human False Calvinism Religion -who has twisted the Scripture in Romans 9 ----and other scripture ----that Calvin misinterpreted and made up his own Doctrine to ------

AI Overview



Predestination is seen as "wrong" by critics because

it challenges human free will, implies an unjust God who predetermines some to damnation, contradicts scripture about God's desire for all to be saved,

disempowers individuals by negating the impact of their choices, and makes evangelism seem pointless.

Critics argue it portrays God as a cruel dictator, not a loving Father, where real love and moral responsibility become meaningless if destinies are fixed before birth, say critics of predestination.

Core Objections to Predestination

Challenges Free Will: It suggests human choices and actions don't truly matter, as God has already decided eternal outcomes, reducing people to puppets.

Questions God's Justice & Love: If God predetermines some for hell, it's seen as unjust and sadistic, contradicting the idea of a loving, good God who wants everyone saved (1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9)
.
Contradicts Scripture: Opponents point to verses showing God's universal desire for salvation, arguing these conflict with a selective predestination.

Disempowering & Demotivating: Believing one's future is set can feel hopeless; the idea of shaping one's own destiny through choice is more empowering.

Makes Evangelism Illogical: If salvation is solely predestined, preaching the Gospel to everyone seems like dangling false hope, notes this article from The Oops of Calvinism.

Reduces Moral Accountability: If sin isn't a free choice, humans can't be held responsible for it, and God wouldn't punish them for involuntary acts,.


Alternative Perspectives

Many theological views emphasize God's sovereignty while upholding human free will, suggesting God has foreknowledge but doesn't cause every choice.

Some traditions see God as working with human choice, not overriding it, allowing for genuine love and relationship,.


I say ----Calvinist Put God in a Box and Make HIM responsible because we Humans don't like taking the Blame for our own Bad Choices in this fallen world -----

all I'm hearing is roman Catholic dogma here.

 

[studentoftheword]

all I'm hearing is roman Catholic dogma here.

All I have to say to That is

 

[Jordon]

All I have to say to That is

all I have to say is awee you don't have to say you love me just because you can

 

[Jordon]

all I have to say is awee you don't have to say you love me just because you can

lol this message just reminded me of a song, the best ever version in my book

I thinks roman Catholics would do week to listen to this song and bind it to there conscience quite simply put