Some thoughts on the apple....

[Seeker47]

The story of Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge is confusing. It is most frequently stated that the fruit gave man the ability to judge good and evil; yet this is contradictory to the story. It is clear man was told not to eat from the tree much earlier. Both Adam and Eve knew it would be a bad thing if they did so. They understood good and evil, obedience and sin, before they ate. What then was the issue?

The terms translated as “good” and “Evil” is, in Hebrew, Tob and Rah. The accepted translation is correct, but both Tob and Rah have other translations. These include the ideas of beneficial or harmful.

God used the term Tob to describe many things. Light is Tob and so is dry land; plants, animals, and women are Tob just to mention a few. Indeed, all creation is labeled Tob. Rah is the opposite of Tob. Note that none of these labels include any concept of morality, they just indicate things that are beneficial or harmful to man. Maybe what Adam and Eve learned about Tob and Rah was not morality, but the very nature of God himself. They lived in Tob, under God's many blessings. Maybe in the sin of disobedience, they began to understand Rah for the first time. They were not only subjected to the benefits of God, but now the absolute terror of His wrath.

For Adam and Eve, there was no relief from that terror once it entered their souls. There was no escape other than absolute, and yet impossible, obedience. That terror continued unabated until the teachings of Torah. Then YHWH, through Moses, gave them a way out, an escape; an escape at least from unintentional sin. God’s full nature would not be revealed until Yeshua. The cross revealed God’s absolute grace, his unfailing love for man, his selfless and unfaltering work to redeem his creation. Trust in Jesus finally put to rest the terror of God's righteousness.

Anyway, that’s where my thoughts ended up.

 

[tablet123]

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Adam and Eve were created in the image of God an innocent nature in flesh.

There is no reality they could know but what God told them.

They did not have a choice to determine their own fate.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden because He gave them a choice.

But it would of not entered their mind to eat of that tree unless an outside source tempted them.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Since God gave them a choice by that tree but they would not think to eat of the tree unless an outside source tempted them God allowed Satan to tempt Eve which she said they could not eat of the tree because that is all she could think and know.

So Satan tempted her with an alternate reality and she ate and sinned.

Then Eve was the outside source that tempted Adam and he ate and sinned.

Now they would have a choice between good and evil to choose their own ways.

And all their offspring are born with a choice.

Which some would choose the truth and some would not.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The enmity is between the good and bad, those who choose the truth and those who do not.

 

[Gideon300]

The story of Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge is confusing. It is most frequently stated that the fruit gave man the ability to judge good and evil; yet this is contradictory to the story. It is clear man was told not to eat from the tree much earlier. Both Adam and Eve knew it would be a bad thing if they did so. They understood good and evil, obedience and sin, before they ate. What then was the issue?

The terms translated as “good” and “Evil” is, in Hebrew, Tob and Rah. The accepted translation is correct, but both Tob and Rah have other translations. These include the ideas of beneficial or harmful.

God used the term Tob to describe many things. Light is Tob and so is dry land; plants, animals, and women are Tob just to mention a few. Indeed, all creation is labeled Tob. Rah is the opposite of Tob. Note that none of these labels include any concept of morality, they just indicate things that are beneficial or harmful to man. Maybe what Adam and Eve learned about Tob and Rah was not morality, but the very nature of God himself. They lived in Tob, under God's many blessings. Maybe in the sin of disobedience, they began to understand Rah for the first time. They were not only subjected to the benefits of God, but now the absolute terror of His wrath.

For Adam and Eve, there was no relief from that terror once it entered their souls. There was no escape other than absolute, and yet impossible, obedience. That terror continued unabated until the teachings of Torah. Then YHWH, through Moses, gave them a way out, an escape; an escape at least from unintentional sin. God’s full nature would not be revealed until Yeshua. The cross revealed God’s absolute grace, his unfailing love for man, his selfless and unfaltering work to redeem his creation. Trust in Jesus finally put to rest the terror of God's righteousness.

Anyway, that’s where my thoughts ended up.

I do not believe Adam and Eve knew what evil is. All they knew was that God had forbidden them to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

I also don't accept that all mankind lived in terror before the Law was given. Job predates the law as did Enoch. Job suffered much but was restored to a far better place after his ordeal

Men began to call upon the name of the Lord quite soon after the eviction from Eden, considering how long people lived in those days. Adam was still alive when Enoch was born. Enoch was so righteous that God did not allow him to see death.

My understanding of the world wide flood in Noah's time is that the DNA of mankind had mostly been corrupted by the "Sons of God". This, I believe, was Satan's plan to defile the bloodline of humanity and so prevent the "seed of the woman" from being born. Noah was not perfect, as his life after the flood showed. But God wiped out the hybrid human/ Sons of God race.

 

[Spiritwalker]

The story of Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge is confusing. It is most frequently stated that the fruit gave man the ability to judge good and evil; yet this is contradictory to the story. It is clear man was told not to eat from the tree much earlier. Both Adam and Eve knew it would be a bad thing if they did so. They understood good and evil, obedience and sin, before they ate. What then was the issue?

The terms translated as “good” and “Evil” is, in Hebrew, Tob and Rah. The accepted translation is correct, but both Tob and Rah have other translations. These include the ideas of beneficial or harmful.

God used the term Tob to describe many things. Light is Tob and so is dry land; plants, animals, and women are Tob just to mention a few. Indeed, all creation is labeled Tob. Rah is the opposite of Tob. Note that none of these labels include any concept of morality, they just indicate things that are beneficial or harmful to man. Maybe what Adam and Eve learned about Tob and Rah was not morality, but the very nature of God himself. They lived in Tob, under God's many blessings. Maybe in the sin of disobedience, they began to understand Rah for the first time. They were not only subjected to the benefits of God, but now the absolute terror of His wrath.

For Adam and Eve, there was no relief from that terror once it entered their souls. There was no escape other than absolute, and yet impossible, obedience. That terror continued unabated until the teachings of Torah. Then YHWH, through Moses, gave them a way out, an escape; an escape at least from unintentional sin. God’s full nature would not be revealed until Yeshua. The cross revealed God’s absolute grace, his unfailing love for man, his selfless and unfaltering work to redeem his creation. Trust in Jesus finally put to rest the terror of God's righteousness.

Anyway, that’s where my thoughts ended up.

Yes I agree with your assessment that it’s not about morality. It’s about the judgements we place on things which leads to suffering. God knew this this is why he warned us and now after the fall we seem to judge everything as good/ bad which backfires on us.

 

[Seeker47]

I do not believe Adam and Eve knew what evil is. All they knew was that God had forbidden them to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

I also don't accept that all mankind lived in terror before the Law was given. Job predates the law as did Enoch. Job suffered much but was restored to a far better place after his ordeal

Men began to call upon the name of the Lord quite soon after the eviction from Eden, considering how long people lived in those days. Adam was still alive when Enoch was born. Enoch was so righteous that God did not allow him to see death.

My understanding of the world wide flood in Noah's time is that the DNA of mankind had mostly been corrupted by the "Sons of God". This, I believe, was Satan's plan to defile the bloodline of humanity and so prevent the "seed of the woman" from being born. Noah was not perfect, as his life after the flood showed. But God wiped out the hybrid human/ Sons of God race.

Your points are well taken. I agree A and E did not know evil. In some ways that was my point. I think they did know right and wrong based on Eve's initial response to the serpent. I need to consider further the issue of righteousness between The Garden and Moses but I am not sure this negates the issue of terror (fear of God). Even as a believer today, part of our faith appears to include terror at God's righteousness. We are all still sinners who have placed our trust in Jesus Christ precisely because we know and fear that righteousness.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[studentoftheword]

It is most frequently stated that the fruit gave man the ability to judge good and evil;

It is not contradictory to the story --it is just plain ridiculous ---- whoever is Preaching that is definitely a WOLF IN 'SHEEP"S CLOTHING -----the Anti-Christ ----I say -----

That is just such NONSENSE -----

. Both Adam and Eve knew it would be a bad thing if they did so. They understood good and evil, obedience and sin, before they ate

No----Just to Clarify --------- they Did Not understand good and evil, obedience and sin, before they ate the fruit ---all God said was ---you will surly die -----so that is all they knew -----

They were created to only know God and what is good -----they were living in paradise and had everything provided for them and they were created to have a personal relationship with God ---they were Holy as God's breath which He breathed into them was Holy ----

They did not know anything about Evil -----Sin or anything pertaining to sin ---the scripture says Nothing about them knowing all of that ----

They were naked and had no knowledge of that -----until they partook in breaking God's Command ----then and only then did they feel shame from their Exposed Naked bodies and guild then crept in --cause -they hid from God -----

They were Given a COMMAND by God and they broke that Command ------then and only then did they know Good from Evil ------their Eyes only saw holiness -----until they fell ------

Adam could have Saved the day if he had of refused to take the fruit from Eve ----Adam was a type of Christ and was the head of looking after the Garden and the future of this world --Eve was his Supporter and Helper in his endever ----but Adam was created first and he was at the Helm of the Ship in the Garden -----

Adam and Eve were created to live as long as God wanted them to on this earth ---they lived in Harmony with all living things on this earth ----there was no sickness or disease in the Garden only health and prosperity indwelled there ------until they disobeyed God's command --------

AND
It wasn't just Adam and Eve who fell -----the whole Earth fell -----and became cursed and the curse on this earth remains today until Jesus Comes back and changes this Old Earth to the New Earth ----

 

[Seeker47]

It is not contradictory to the story --it is just plain ridiculous ---- whoever is Preaching that is definitely a WOLF IN 'SHEEP"S CLOTHING -----the Anti-Christ ----I say -----

That is just such NONSENSE -----





No----Just to Clarify --------- they Did Not understand good and evil, obedience and sin, before they ate the fruit ---all God said was ---you will surly die -----so that is all they knew -----

They were created to only know God and what is good -----they were living in paradise and had everything provided for them and they were created to have a personal relationship with God ---they were Holy as God's breath which He breathed into them was Holy ----

They did not know anything about Evil -----Sin or anything pertaining to sin ---the scripture says Nothing about them knowing all of that ----

They were naked and had no knowledge of that -----until they partook in breaking God's Command ----then and only then did they feel shame from their Exposed Naked bodies and guild then crept in --cause -they hid from God -----

They were Given a COMMAND by God and they broke that Command ------then and only then did they know Good from Evil ------their Eyes only saw holiness -----until they fell ------

Adam could have Saved the day if he had of refused to take the fruit from Eve ----Adam was a type of Christ and was the head of looking after the Garden and the future of this world --Eve was his Supporter and Helper in his endever ----but Adam was created first and he was at the Helm of the Ship in the Garden -----

Adam and Eve were created to live as long as God wanted them to on this earth ---they lived in Harmony with all living things on this earth ----there was no sickness or disease in the Garden only health and prosperity indwelled there ------until they disobeyed God's command --------

AND
It wasn't just Adam and Eve who fell -----the whole Earth fell -----and became cursed and the curse on this earth remains today until Jesus Comes back and changes this Old Earth to the New Earth ----

You state: "- they Did Not understand good and evil, obedience and sin, before they ate the fruit-" I believe they understood obedience and sin but did not know the consequences. When confronted by the serpent, Eve said "...but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden." She clearly

 

[Seeker47]

You state: "- they Did Not understand good and evil, obedience and sin, before they ate the fruit-" I believe they understood obedience and sin but did not know the consequences. When confronted by the serpent, Eve said "...but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden." She clearly

Sorry, I took too long to edit my original response and got cut off.

You state: "- they Did Not understand good and evil, obedience and sin, before they ate the fruit-" When confronted by the serpent Eve said, "...but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden." She clearly understood it was forbidden and eating was disobedience. I believe Adam knew too, based on his weakling excuse when confronted by YHWH.

I believe they understood obedience and sin but did not know the consequences. That was the intent of my OP.

I apologize my response got messed up and really appreciate your reply. Open and honest discussions are the whole reason I post here. Thanks!

 

[studentoftheword]

No apologize needed ---

-I know your think that Adam and Eve both knew the full Consequences of eating the fruit but that is not right ------

I believe they knew that it was not good to disobey God's command ---but they did not know the full consequences of their disobedience ------

God never told either one that by eating the fruit that they would have committed treason and that they would die spiritually ---and be abandoned from the Garden and would be cursed ----so they did not know the full consequences of their bad decision to listen to the serpent and eat the fruit of the wrong tree ---

All God said was ---

15 So the Lord God took the man [He had made] and settled him in the Garden of Eden to cultivate and keep it.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely (unconditionally) eat [the fruit] from every tree of the garden;

17 but [only] from the tree of the knowledge (recognition) of good and evil you shall not eat,
otherwise on the day that you eat from it, you shall most certainly die


I say ------there were actually 2 trees in the middle of the Garden ---the Tree of Life and the tree of Good and Evil ---they were allow to eat from the tree of Life -----just not the one beside it ----good and evil

this is the scripture Genesis 2

9 And [in that garden] the Lord God caused to grow from the ground every tree that is desirable and pleasing to the sight and good (suitable, pleasant) for food;

the tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the [experiential] knowledge (recognition) of [the difference between] good and evil.

I say -------Did they know which tree was the tree of good and evil -------as the tree of life was there to ---

Did God show them which tree was the tree they couldn't eat from --the scripture doesn't say ----but the serpent knew which tree they were not to eat from and the serpent deceived Eve through trickery to eat of the wrong tree ------and then Eve offers the fruit to Adam ---who could have refused it but took it ----did he know it was from the wrong tree ??????? ----there were 2 trees there together in the middle of the Garden -----

And Eve ate some of the fruit -----it never says what fruit it was ---the apple thing came from our thinking -----
and she did not right away know good from evil ---it wasn't until Adam took the fruit that they became aware of their nakedness and hid from God ----that is when the sin was known -------after the Captain ate the fruit -----

 

[studentoftheword]

Then YHWH, through Moses, gave them a way out, an escape; an escape at least from unintentional sin.

How do you see that Moses gave them a way out --???--
can you explain what you mean here ---thanks

And all sin is intentional ----there is no such thing as unintentional sin ----

Don't know where you get your unintentional sin from ??????

 

[Seeker47]

How do you see that Moses gave them a way out --???--
can you explain what you mean here ---thanks

And all sin is intentional ----there is no such thing as unintentional sin ----

Don't know where you get your unintentional sin from ??????

How do you see that Moses gave them a way out --???--
can you explain what you mean here ---thanks

And all sin is intentional ----there is no such thing as unintentional sin ----

Don't know where you get your unintentional sin from ??????

Leviticus Chapter 4 identifies sacrificial atonement available for unintentional sin. The atonement is available for priests, the entire Israelite community, for the Israelite leaders, and for individuals. The Hebrew word is Segagah which means a mistaken or inadvertent transgression. There is no sacrificial atonement available for intentional sin.

Of course, there can be many interpretations of intentional and inadvertent. My own belief is that sins compelled by human weakness are inadvertent. Intentional sins are those that deliberately, willfully and purposely challenge God and hold him in contempt. In other words blasphemy.

But that is my conclusion.

 

[studentoftheword]

Leviticus Chapter 4 identifies sacrificial atonement available for unintentional sin.

Thanks for your reply -----

Ok I see what you are focusing on here -----in Leviticus 4 ----people who sin out of ignorance of God's laws --still needed to have their sins covered by the blood of animals ---

I say ----But today all sin for all people have been atoned for by the Shed blood of Jesus --Sin now is not an issue ---all sin intentional and unintentional have been atoned for ----