144,000: The first resurrection and rapture of the church

[LTL]

I have yet to see anyone in the discussion, save myself, identify WHAT the 144k are.
The bible says they are FIRSTFRUITS.

Maybe, just maybe, the bible is correct.
FIRSTFRUIT Jews.

That would be an excellent starting place.
So many here are extremely troubled by who and what the 144k jews are.
...so they make up all kinds of things about them.

Why must they be Jews? The tribe of Judah was the southern kingdom. The northern kingdom was Ephraim. Both kingdoms were scattered throughout the known world. Ephraim first and then Judah. While Ephraim mixed with the populations, Judah did not.

Christians today are not Jews. But they do belong to Christ as Israel. If they are of Christ, but not of the house of Judah, then they are of Ephraim, the tribe that grows into a great multitude via the birthright (Gen 48:13-20).

If you say that you are not of the house of Ephraim, and you are not of the house of Judah, then you are not of Israel. But we know that all Christians are of the house of Israel. Since they are not all of the house of Judah, then they are all of the house of Ephraim.

It is for this reason that the 144,000 listed in Rev. 7:4-8 are of the house of Ephraim and not Judah. Thus, the 144,000 are not Jews but Ephramites.

 

[Psalm1]

Why must they be Jews? The tribe of Judah was the southern kingdom. The northern kingdom was Ephraim. Both kingdoms were scattered throughout the known world. Ephraim first and then Judah. While Ephraim mixed with the populations, Judah did not.

Christians today are not Jews. But they do belong to Christ as Israel. If they are of Christ, but not of the house of Judah, then they are of Ephraim, the tribe that grows into a great multitude via the birthright (Gen 48:13-20).

If you say that you are not of the house of Ephraim, and you are not of the house of Judah, then you are not of Israel. But we know that all Christians are of the house of Israel. Since they are not all of the house of Judah, then they are all of the house of Ephraim.

It is for this reason that the 144,000 listed in Rev. 7:4-8 are of the house of Ephraim and not Judah. Thus, the 144,000 are not Jews but Ephramites.

Paul called them Jews.( which is against your theory)
Paul himself said he was a Jew.( again, against your theory)
Paul is from Benjamin, not Judah.

The bible helps rule out supposition and we can say what the bible says.

144,000 Jews, or Israelis, or Hebrews, whatever, of those 3, a person who wants to line up with the Bible, can agree with.

Otherwise we see many who are doing the "non Scriptural tribe shell game."

Ahem....and all of them are replacement theology.... whooda thought ?

Paul declares "Jew" and "Israel" the same.
I will agree with the bible.

 

[LTL]

Paul called them Jews.( which is against your theory)
Paul himself said he was a Jew.( again, against your theory)
Paul is from Benjamin, not Judah.

The bible helps rule out supposition and we can say what the bible says.

144,000 Jews, or Israelis, or Hebrews, whatever, of those 3, a person who wants to line up with the Bible, can agree with.

Otherwise we see many who are doing the "non Scriptural tribe shell game."

Ahem....and all of them are replacement theology.... whooda thought ?

Paul declares "Jew" and "Israel" the same.
I will agree with the bible.

Israel was traditionally the name for Ephriam where the kingdom was divided in the OT.
Paul was from Israel being a member of Judah and Benjamin, the southern kingdom.
The Bible does not say 144,000 Jews, or Hebrews, but from Israel; twelve tribes. Two are from the lower kingdom, and ten are from the northern kingdom. All twelve tribe are from Israel, not just Judah and Ben. If you agree with the bible then you must agree with this. Rev. 7:4-8, twelve tribes in Israel, not two.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Israel was traditionally the name for Ephriam where the kingdom was divided in the OT.
Paul was from Israel being a member of Judah and Benjamin, the southern kingdom.
The Bible does not say 144,000 Jews, or Hebrews, but from Israel; twelve tribes. Two are from the lower kingdom, and ten are from the northern kingdom. All twelve tribe are from Israel, not just Judah and Ben. If you agree with the bible then you must agree with this. Rev. 7:4-8, twelve tribes in Israel, not two.

Revelation 7 does not actually list the 12 tribes of natural Israel. Levi was never one of the 12 tribes, nor was Joseph, yet they are in Rev 7; and Ephraim and Dan are missing. So Revelation 7 is obviously referring to spiritual Israel

 

[LTL]

Revelation 7 does not actually list the 12 tribes of natural Israel. Levi was never one of the 12 tribes, nor was Joseph, yet they are in Rev 7; and Ephraim and Dan are missing. So Revelation 7 is obviously referring to spiritual Israel

So with regard to Paul being from Israel and more specifically the tribe of Benjamin, you take that as literal. And with regard to Rev. 7:4-8 you regard that as spiritual.
And that in your opinion is correct interpretation.
How about Paul being from Benjamin, a tribe in Israel, literally.
And Rev. 7:4-8 representing Israel? After all, the sealing of the 144,000 is the marriage which is literally Or do you think the marriage is spiritual as well.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

So with regard to Paul being from Israel and more specifically the tribe of Benjamin, you take that as literal. And with regard to Rev. 7:4-8 you regard that as spiritual.
And that in your opinion is correct interpretation.
How about Paul being from Benjamin, a tribe in Israel, literally.
And Rev. 7:4-8 representing Israel? After all, the sealing of the 144,000 is the marriage which is literally Or do you think the marriage is spiritual as well.

Yes, Paul was literally of the tribe of Benjamin due to his natural birth.

Revelation 7:4-8 is not an accurate list of the 12 natural tribes of Israel, for the reasons I mentioned. So the logical conclusion is that it must mean something else besides physical tribes. A reasonable conclusion IMO is that it pertains to spiritual realities.

I do not believe the sealing of the 144,000 is a marriage. I see it as an anointing or commissioning for purpose.

 

[LTL]

Yes, Paul was literally of the tribe of Benjamin due to his natural birth.

Revelation 7:4-8 is not an accurate list of the 12 natural tribes of Israel, for the reasons I mentioned. So the logical conclusion is that it must mean something else besides physical tribes. A reasonable conclusion IMO is that it pertains to spiritual realities.

I do not believe the sealing of the 144,000 is a marriage. I see it as an anointing or commissioning for purpose.

Okay. Very good. We have a foundation to agree on. That your interpretation and my interpretation are on equal footing. Since you do not believe the sealing of the 144,000 is the marriage, and you see it as an anointing. That is good news to me. There is hope for you after all.

And as I shared, I found the four storylines in the Book of Revelation. Look at the chiasmus that I placed on my last thread. The storylines can be cross-referenced.

Come on ChristRoseFromTheDead. Look at what I have shared with you. No one else has found this. The tribulation is ready to begin. Putin has said he is going to nuke Germany and the UK. The US is ready to attack Iran. Russia has told the US not to do that. The powder keg is ready to explode. Take a serious look at my chiasmus work on the Book of Revelation. The thread is The Book of Revelation, verse-by-verse, conclusion.

I am pulling for you. Take a serious look.

 

[ewq1938]

Levi was never one of the 12 tribes,

You are wrong.



Num_3:6 Bring the tribe of Levi near, and present them before Aaron the priest, that they may minister unto him.



********************************

Gen 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
Gen 49:2 Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father.
Gen 49:3 Reuben 1, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:
Gen 49:4 Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy father's bed; then defiledst thou it: he went up to my couch.
Gen 49:5 Simeon 2 and Levi 3 are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in their habitations.
Gen 49:6 O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.
Gen 49:7 Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.
Gen 49:8 Judah 4, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.
Gen 49:9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
Gen 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Gen 49:11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
Gen 49:12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.
Gen 49:13 Zebulun 5 shall dwell at the haven of the sea; and he shall be for an haven of ships; and his border shall be unto Zidon.
Gen 49:14 Issachar 6 is a strong ass couching down between two burdens:
Gen 49:15 And he saw that rest was good, and the land that it was pleasant; and bowed his shoulder to bear, and became a servant unto tribute.
Gen 49:16 Dan 7 shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.
Gen 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.
Gen 49:18 I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.
Gen 49:19 Gad 8, a troop shall overcome him: but he shall overcome at the last.
Gen 49:20 Out of Asher 9 his bread shall be fat, and he shall yield royal dainties.
Gen 49:21 Naphtali 10 is a hind let loose: he giveth goodly words.
Gen 49:22 Joseph 11 is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
Gen 49:23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
Gen 49:24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel
Gen 49:25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
Gen 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.
Gen 49:27 Benjamin 12 shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil.
Jacob's Death and Burial
Gen 49:28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

You are wrong.
Num_3:6 Bring the tribe of Levi near, and present them before Aaron the priest, that they may minister unto him.

I said 12 tribes. They received no inheritance in the land of Israel. God was their inheritance

 

[ewq1938]

I said 12 tribes.

I already proved they were of the 12 tribes. Don't quote one thing and ignore everything else posted.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I already proved they were of the 12 tribes. Don't quote one thing and ignore everything else posted.

Those were Jacob's 12 sons, they were not the 12 tribes that were given an inheritance in the land. Look at the 12 tribes that were encamped around the tabernacle in the wilderness; Levi is not one of them. Levi was the 13th tribe set apart to God.

Joseph was not a tribe; his 2 sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, became tribes in his stead, in effect receiving a double portion of the inheritance.

So the 12 tribes of Israel included Ephraim and Manasseh in place of Joseph and Levi.

 

[LTL]

You are wrong.



Num_3:6 Bring the tribe of Levi near, and present them before Aaron the priest, that they may minister unto him.



********************************

Gen 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
Gen 49:2 Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father.
Gen 49:3 Reuben 1, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:
Gen 49:4 Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy father's bed; then defiledst thou it: he went up to my couch.
Gen 49:5 Simeon 2 and Levi 3 are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in their habitations.
Gen 49:6 O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.
Gen 49:7 Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.
Gen 49:8 Judah 4, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.
Gen 49:9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
Gen 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Gen 49:11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
Gen 49:12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.
Gen 49:13 Zebulun 5 shall dwell at the haven of the sea; and he shall be for an haven of ships; and his border shall be unto Zidon.
Gen 49:14 Issachar 6 is a strong ass couching down between two burdens:
Gen 49:15 And he saw that rest was good, and the land that it was pleasant; and bowed his shoulder to bear, and became a servant unto tribute.
Gen 49:16 Dan 7 shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.
Gen 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.
Gen 49:18 I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.
Gen 49:19 Gad 8, a troop shall overcome him: but he shall overcome at the last.
Gen 49:20 Out of Asher 9 his bread shall be fat, and he shall yield royal dainties.
Gen 49:21 Naphtali 10 is a hind let loose: he giveth goodly words.
Gen 49:22 Joseph 11 is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
Gen 49:23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
Gen 49:24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel
Gen 49:25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
Gen 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.
Gen 49:27 Benjamin 12 shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil.
Jacob's Death and Burial
Gen 49:28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.

Okay. I do not see the problem. Levi was a tribe in Israel. So Levi listed in Rev. 7:4-8 is a good thing, right?

 

[LTL]

I said 12 tribes. They received no inheritance in the land of Israel. God was their inheritance

It is quite obvious that Joseph's son Mannassah was given as a tribe to fill in for Levi, as Levi served as priests for the whole. Having satisfied that obligation, Levi returns to the group of twelve, and Dan becomes the tribe to serve (Rev. 7:4-8). Perfectly reasonable. Come on, get with the program. The light is upon you. Join with me to see the truth.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

It is quite obvious that Joseph's son Mannassah was given as a tribe to fill in for Levi, as Levi served as priests for the whole. Having satisfied that obligation, Levi returns to the group of twelve, and Dan becomes the tribe to serve (Rev. 7:4-8). Perfectly reasonable. Come on, get with the program. The light is upon you. Join with me to see the truth.

Honestly, I don't think you know what you're talking about, so I decline

 

[LTL]

Honestly, I don't think you know what you're talking about, so I decline

But what if I do know what I am talking about? A wise person would consider the possibility. And I do not think you are unwise.

 

[ewq1938]

Those were Jacob's 12 sons, they were not the 12 tribes that were given an inheritance in the land.

Except God calls them the 12 tribes so you are wrong.

Gen 49:28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Except God calls them the 12 tribes so you are wrong.

Gen 49:28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.

Well you're stuck with explaining the discrepancy between that list in Genesis and the 12 tribes of Exodus.

 

[ewq1938]

Well you're stuck with explaining the discrepancy between that list in Genesis and the 12 tribes of Exodus.

Let's go back to you saying Levi was never one of the 12 tribes of Israel. Do you admit you were wrong? After we deal with that I will be happy to address the tribes listed in Exodus.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Let's go back to you saying Levi was never one of the 12 tribes of Israel. Do you admit you were wrong? After we deal with that I will be happy to address the tribes listed in Exodus.

Yes and no. i admit that Genesis 49:28 has the word tribes. However, in my mind the word tribe means something larger than just one family, which is what each "tribe" was then in that verse. The LXX does not have the word tribes in Genesis 49:28, but instead has the word sons, which is more accurate in my mind because that is what they were; they weren't tribes; at most they were 12 families. And in fact the LXX doesn't have the word Israel either; it says the 12 sons of Jacob.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes and no. i admit that Genesis 49:28 has the word tribes. However, in my mind the word tribe means something larger than just one family, which is what each "tribe" was then in that verse. The LXX does not have the word tribes in Genesis 49:28, but instead has the word sons,

The Hebrew text does not have the Hebrew word "sons" there. It's a poor translation.

which is more accurate in my mind because that is what they were; they weren't tribes;

Wrong. Those were the original 12 tribes. Your beliefs force you to argue against what it says, and what the clear context was.