Re: Jn 5:24
Staying With Jesus’ Actual Words (Not Grammar Layers)
Jesus didn't say, "has eternal life as long as he keeps hearing & keeps believing & keeps obeying."
He said: HAS eternal life > SHALL NOT come into condemnation > HAS passed from death to life
I posted Jesus words, chosen by the verified translation committees behind the KJV, NKJV, NASB, ESV, NIV, CSB & other major Bibles.
Anyone suggesting "has eternal life," "shall not come into condemnation," & "has passed from death to life" are the wrong words. Their argument belong with translation team across the board
Actually, those grammar layers are the actual words and analysis of them.
One of the main problems in these communications is ambiguity which leaves us open to reading the same language different ways. And for whatever reason, those "translation committees" do not seem to do the work from the Greek to make the English more specific. But
we can do so from the Greek and from digging deeper into explanations from men like Daniel Wallace who's involved with the NET Bible translation.
Here's an example that uses the same wording
ὁ πιστεύων (Jn. 3:16 SCR) as John5:24
ὁ τὸν λόγον μου ἀκούων, καὶ
πιστεύων (Jn. 5:24 SCR):
Here's how they translated this Greek phrase ὁ πιστεύων (ho pisteuōn):
NET John 3:16 For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
The problem with the English is that it's ambiguous and can be interpreted in at least 3 different ways:
- Punctiliar - point in time: Interpreted as a singular past event even though translated as "believes" and not "believed".
- Gnomic: A general maxim without explicitly commenting on duration or frequency. It can thus also speak of the type of person - a believing person.
- Iterative or Customary: the action is ongoing or habitual
So, we're left to argue over English possibilities.
But Wallace provided more information in his book Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics p.521-522 (underlining is mine):
C. Customary (Habitual or General) Present
1. Definition
The customary present is used to signal either an action that
regularly occurs or an
ongoing state.
20 The action is usually
iterative, or repeated, but not without interruption. This usage is quite common.
The difference between the customary (proper) and the iterative present is mild. Generally, however, it can be said that the customary present is broader in its idea of the “present” time and describes an event that occurs regularly. The customary present is an iterative present with the temporal ends “kicked out.”
522
There are two types of customary present, repeated action and ongoing state. The stative present is more pronounced in its temporal restrictions than the customary present or the gnomic present.
2. Key to Identification: customarily, habitually, continually
The two types of customary present are lexically determined: One is repeated action (habitual present [customarily, habitually]), while the other is ongoing state (stative present [continually]).
3. Illustrations
a. Clear Examples
νηστεύω δὶς τοῦ σαββάτου
I [customarily] fast twice a week
πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται
everyone who [continually] believes in him should not perish
This could also be taken as a gnomic present, but if so it is not a proverbial statement, nor is it simply a general maxim. In this Gospel, there seems to be a qualitative distinction between the ongoing act of believing and the simple fact of believing.
So, although the translation is ambiguous, Wallace doesn't see the verb or the statement in John3:16 as being ambiguous. Nor do I.
One of the things the Koine Greek is known for is its clarity and specificity. It just takes a lot of work to dig down and try to find it. This is what Wallace is doing in the above example. I was taught to do the same thing.
So, FWIW and with respect, it does not surprise me when you or anyone tied to a theological system takes a position on an ambiguity. It's perfectly normal to do so in all these systems. But there's another entire level to go in the original language. You came up with a Gnomic Present classification in an earlier discussion and now you're resting in "translation committees" to make your decision from their ambiguity. This is interpreting the interpreters, which is one of the things I was avoiding when I went through Greek training.
One of the English translations I keep on-screen for these types of reasons is the Young's Literal Translation, so I can see what Mr. Young saw:
YLT John 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
YLT John 5:24 'Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.
There's not much if any ambiguity left here, just as there is no ambiguity in Daniel Wallace's classification and clarification.
