Apologetics: witnessing to atheists

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To the atheist:

Romans 1:20 KJV
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"



....
 
As I mentioned, I'm not interested in continuing a back-and-forth discussion on this. I'm simply sharing my perspective so you and others understand where I stand on this topic. However, please don't claim "we agree" and then follow it with a statement that misrepresents my position through your wording. My views on this are already clearly stated in my previous posts in this thread. If what I've said needs further clarification, I mean no offense, but you may want to consult ChatGPT for assistance.

Just copy my previous comments into ChatGPT and ask for clarification (which will be based on my actual written statements here in the thread that you appear to have missed or not understood).
....

As I mentioned, I also am not interested in ping-pong, and my post attempted to move the discussion forward,
whereas yours ends it. An appropriate reply would have been to explain how we disagree complete with Scripture
supporting your understanding. Refusing to do such indicates your opinion is weak and indefensible. If such information
is clearly stated in previous posts, please cite the numbers, because I do not see it. Do not hide behind ChatGPT (no offense meant).
If you need clarification of my views, simply ask for such rather than putting words in my mouth. Thanks!

Again, I ask that you move this discussion forward, because we are bogging at these points:

1. You said "We do not agree. Jesus is the creator who created everything according to the Bible."
Does this mean that you do not agree with me saying that discussing the main roles of each member of the Godhead is not meant to divorce divine unity?

2. Does this mean the Bible does not say God created everything more times than it says Jesus created everything?

3. Regarding the HS, do you think the Bible says Jesus indwells believers more often than it says the HS indwells believers?

4. And if you disagree with my explanation of the Triunity, how about stating yours? Please have constructive criticism.

5. I agree that I do not understand where we disagree, so please explain it in more simplistic terms. Thanks again!
 
Go to www.kjvcompare.com using Google Chrome for the PC (or use Parallels for Mac using PC Chrome).
Select NIV and then look at all the changes and say to yourself if it is not corrupted.
Also, look at my PDF 77 changed doctrines at www.affectionsabove.com.
If you cannot see why the NiV is most corrupt and should not be trusted after looking at these two sources, I cannot help you and any further discussion on this matter will not help.
….

Looking at your link, I find 1Tim. 3:16 listed first, for which my NIV has He in the text and God in the footnote, indicating that various manuscripts support one or the other. I agree that God seems preferable, although He refers to God, so there is no doctrinal change.
Next is 1John 3:16, in which my NIV has "we know what love is" and the KJV has "perceive we the love of God". I agree that the KJV is the better reading doctrinally, because it more clearly indicates that it is God's love that is in view.
Third is John 3:16, in which my NIV says "one and only Son", whereas the KJV says "only begotten Son". Because "begotten" means "bringing a child into existence via sexual reproduction", I view the NIV as the better meaning.
Next is Matt. 1:1, in which my NIV says "the genealogy of JC" and the KJV says "the generation of JC". The former seems to be clearer,
although I see no difference in meaning and thus no change in doctrine.
Fifth is John 1:18, in which my NIV says "God the only Son" with a footnote citing the KJV "the only begotten Son". Again, the term begotten does not seem appropriate for referring to God, so I prefer God the Son (God the Father, and God the HS).
Sixth is Micah 5:2, in which my NIV says "from ancient days" with a footnote citing the KJV "from everlasting". If the original language can be translated either way, then the latter would be truer of JC.
Next is John 7:8, in which my NIV says "not yet" and the KJV "not up yet", so there is no difference. (The NIV notes that "yet" is omitted in some manuscripts.)
Eighth is Titus 3:10, in which my NIV has "divisive person" and the KJV has "heretick". Because what Paul presumably has in mind is the person who perverts the Gospel, I prefer the latter for doctrinal reasons, not knowing which the original language supports.
Next is Matt. 5:22, in which my NIV omits "without a cause" and notes that the KJV includes that phrase. Again, doctrinally, the KJV reading better indicates righteous anger.
Tenth and last for now is Zech. 13:6, in which my NIV says "The wounds I was given" and the KJV says "Those with which I was wounded".
I see no meaningful difference in translation and thus in doctrine.

Over...
 
Yes, but proper interpretation of what scripture teaches might well depend on history rather than tradition. Why is some history that suggests a different interpretation of scripture deemed "clearly irrelevant" when other than contradicting tradition it seems to fit perfectly?

Please cite a specific example you have in mind. Thanks.
 
Rewriter has said similar stuff to me, such as this “in the 1st century CE, the Jewish High Priest was appointed by the Imperial Legate of Syria, thus deriving his authority from that of the Imperial Legate. The Imperial Legate derived his authority from the emperor. In the 30's of the 1st century the Tiberius and his successor Gaius had zero authority in the city of Damascus. Thus, neither the Imperial Legate nor the Jewish High Priest had any authority. Acts records Paul going to the Jewish High Priest to gain authority to detain Christians in Damascus. Either Paul was ignorant, which does not fit with his claim of having studied under Gamaliel, or Luke invented this episode. There is a conflict in the biblical evidence, so how does one deal with this simple problem, Paul and Luke cannot both be correct in what they recorded in the scriptures.” [End of Quote]

Perhaps rew's source is wrong, but Scripture citations are needed. Acts 9:1-2 says that Paul asked the high priest for letters to the synagogues in Damascus authorizing him to find those who belonged to "the Way" and take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. What is unbelievable about that?
 
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Please cite a specific example you have in mind. Thanks.

I mean including your inerrant source and your fallible Scripture that is contradicted by it in a significant way.
(Not interested in minutiae/grains of sand :^)
 
Perhaps rew's source is wrong, but Scripture citations are needed. Acts 9:1-2 says that Paul asked the high priest for letters to the synagogues in Damascus authorizing him to find those who belonged to "the Way" and take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. What is unbelievable about that?

The issue with asking the high priest for permission in Damascus is that the high priest had ZERO authority in Damascus. Tiberius, who would have been Roman emperor at the time had ZERO authority in Damascus and the high priest in Jerusalem was two levels below him and granted only religious, not judicial, authority. One might as well ask the Assistant Secretary of the Interior for permission to go to England and detain people and bring them back to the USA. The Assistant Secretary would not have the authority to approve such an action either.

And since you want scripture, John 19:39. You will likely not catch what it says, but it is relevant. Think a remote site and only one source of medical supplies anywhere near. Where would a few truckloads of free medical supplies come from within a couple hours of an unexpected emergency, even if that medical supply source was officially opposed to all in crisis.
 
The issue with asking the high priest for permission in Damascus is that the high priest had ZERO authority in Damascus. Tiberius, who would have been Roman emperor at the time had ZERO authority in Damascus and the high priest in Jerusalem was two levels below him and granted only religious, not judicial, authority. One might as well ask the Assistant Secretary of the Interior for permission to go to England and detain people and bring them back to the USA. The Assistant Secretary would not have the authority to approve such an action either.

And since you want scripture, John 19:39. You will likely not catch what it says, but it is relevant. Think a remote site and only one source of medical supplies anywhere near. Where would a few truckloads of free medical supplies come from within a couple hours of an unexpected emergency, even if that medical supply source was officially opposed to all in crisis.

Was religious authority not sufficient for Paul's request?

You are correct; I do not catch the significance of John 19:39, nor do I see the source for your description of the history or what Bible doctrine is contradicted by it, so please explain using the version for dummies.
 
Was religious authority not sufficient for Paul's request?

You are correct; I do not catch the significance of John 19:39, nor do I see the source for your description of the history or what Bible doctrine is contradicted by it, so please explain using the version for dummies.

Well, let's review a little history. In the 30's there were two Jewish high priests, one appointed by the Imperial Legate to Syria and subject to removal by the Imperial Legate at any time, who had to ask the Imperial Legate for the high priestly vestments for the holy days, and return them to Roman custody afterwards and whose task it was to ensure that the daily sacrifice to the emperor was conducted. Then there was the unofficial high priest whom most Jews admired and who stayed out of politics. Neither of these individuals had any authority over individual synagogues, those were under control of the local population which appointed a leader for the synagogue.

Now which of these two high priests did Paul go to for authorization and where did that high priest get sufficient authority to dictate to a local synagogue in an entirely foreign country, an independent country allied with Rome?

Now regarding Myrrh and aloes, these were not easily obtained products. They were expensive and associated with healing and/or burial. They would not be available in large quantities in the general marketplace. The primary markets for these products would not even have been the general public but rather temples of worship. Now, how many temples do you think were in Jerusalem that might have such a large quantity of these ointments? And once you have identified a temple, who would have to approve the release of such a large quantity? And bear in mind, the Sanhedrin had no real authority nor more than one permanent member, the high priest, their purpose was s advisory to the high priest.

Now put it together, it is highly unlikely that there was any source for the quantity of myrrh and aloe delivered to Jesus's tomb except for the Jerusalem temple, and at most two individuals who could authorize its release, two individuals who had to work together, one on the political side and one on the popular side. Now how did the large quantity of myrrh and aloes get to the tomb? You might note, I do not look to make everything fit by "maybe's" and "if's", rather I examine the inconvenient facts and find a solution that fits the knowable facts.

Now post 1st Jewish War when Christians want to avoid persecution by Rome, any official accounts will portray Christians as not a problem, distinguish Christians and Jews and blame Jews for problems, that would be simple self-preservation. Jews would do likewise, which would lead to differences in recorded events depending on the source. Guess what, Jewish sources give different versions of many events than the gospels or Acts do.

Now you can look at the evidence and seriously consider it, or you can say that the official Christian accounts must be correct because they have to be or things are different than you WANT to believe.
 
Well, let's review a little history. In the 30's there were two Jewish high priests, one appointed by the Imperial Legate to Syria and subject to removal by the Imperial Legate at any time, who had to ask the Imperial Legate for the high priestly vestments for the holy days, and return them to Roman custody afterwards and whose task it was to ensure that the daily sacrifice to the emperor was conducted. Then there was the unofficial high priest whom most Jews admired and who stayed out of politics. Neither of these individuals had any authority over individual synagogues, those were under control of the local population which appointed a leader for the synagogue.

Now which of these two high priests did Paul go to for authorization and where did that high priest get sufficient authority to dictate to a local synagogue in an entirely foreign country, an independent country allied with Rome?

Now regarding Myrrh and aloes, these were not easily obtained products. They were expensive and associated with healing and/or burial. They would not be available in large quantities in the general marketplace. The primary markets for these products would not even have been the general public but rather temples of worship. Now, how many temples do you think were in Jerusalem that might have such a large quantity of these ointments? And once you have identified a temple, who would have to approve the release of such a large quantity? And bear in mind, the Sanhedrin had no real authority nor more than one permanent member, the high priest, their purpose was s advisory to the high priest.

Now put it together, it is highly unlikely that there was any source for the quantity of myrrh and aloe delivered to Jesus's tomb except for the Jerusalem temple, and at most two individuals who could authorize its release, two individuals who had to work together, one on the political side and one on the popular side. Now how did the large quantity of myrrh and aloes get to the tomb? You might note, I do not look to make everything fit by "maybe's" and "if's", rather I examine the inconvenient facts and find a solution that fits the knowable facts.

Now post 1st Jewish War when Christians want to avoid persecution by Rome, any official accounts will portray Christians as not a problem, distinguish Christians and Jews and blame Jews for problems, that would be simple self-preservation. Jews would do likewise, which would lead to differences in recorded events depending on the source. Guess what, Jewish sources give different versions of many events than the gospels or Acts do.

Now you can look at the evidence and seriously consider it, or you can say that the official Christian accounts must be correct because they have to be or things are different than you WANT to believe.

rew, I am asking for the source of your review of a little history in order to see whether it is very reliable.

I am also asking "So what?", which is what I ask myself whenever making an assertion for the purpose of seeing significance.
Without knowing the source, I cannot ascertain whether the so-called facts are inconvenient or not, much more whether any inconvenience is significant.

So far I do not even understand the problem with Nick having myrrh and aloes, much less the solution.
Nor do I understand what you think I want to believe, much less what unspecified accounts say regarding
evidence of something unspecified.
 
As I mentioned, I also am not interested in ping-pong, and my post attempted to move the discussion forward,
whereas yours ends it. An appropriate reply would have been to explain how we disagree complete with Scripture
supporting your understanding. Refusing to do such indicates your opinion is weak and indefensible. If such information
is clearly stated in previous posts, please cite the numbers, because I do not see it. Do not hide behind ChatGPT (no offense meant).
If you need clarification of my views, simply ask for such rather than putting words in my mouth. Thanks!

Again, I ask that you move this discussion forward, because we are bogging at these points:

1. You said "We do not agree. Jesus is the creator who created everything according to the Bible."
Does this mean that you do not agree with me saying that discussing the main roles of each member of the Godhead is not meant to divorce divine unity?

2. Does this mean the Bible does not say God created everything more times than it says Jesus created everything?

3. Regarding the HS, do you think the Bible says Jesus indwells believers more often than it says the HS indwells believers?

4. And if you disagree with my explanation of the Triunity, how about stating yours? Please have constructive criticism.

5. I agree that I do not understand where we disagree, so please explain it in more simplistic terms. Thanks again!

No, I did give Scripture but you were simply not listening and you kept saying, "we agree" and then you inserted your belief into some kind of statement of faith that I did not make or even agree with. This shows that when I recommended ChatGPT, it was to help you to answer questions on my already stated written beliefs within my previous posts to you that you simply misunderstood. The rest of you said is not necessary to address until you learn how to listen or read and or understand people's posts in what they say with Scripture. Now, you are twisting the narrative around as if I did not give Scripture to support my reasons and I am hiding behind ChatGPT as the reason why I did not do that. This is simply false slander at this point and your doing what the Democrats do, which is to gaslight others.





....
 
Looking at your link, I find 1Tim. 3:16 listed first, for which my NIV has He in the text and God in the footnote, indicating that various manuscripts support one or the other. I agree that God seems preferable, although He refers to God, so there is no doctrinal change.
Next is 1John 3:16, in which my NIV has "we know what love is" and the KJV has "perceive we the love of God". I agree that the KJV is the better reading doctrinally, because it more clearly indicates that it is God's love that is in view.
Third is John 3:16, in which my NIV says "one and only Son", whereas the KJV says "only begotten Son". Because "begotten" means "bringing a child into existence via sexual reproduction", I view the NIV as the better meaning.
Next is Matt. 1:1, in which my NIV says "the genealogy of JC" and the KJV says "the generation of JC". The former seems to be clearer,
although I see no difference in meaning and thus no change in doctrine.
Fifth is John 1:18, in which my NIV says "God the only Son" with a footnote citing the KJV "the only begotten Son". Again, the term begotten does not seem appropriate for referring to God, so I prefer God the Son (God the Father, and God the HS).
Sixth is Micah 5:2, in which my NIV says "from ancient days" with a footnote citing the KJV "from everlasting". If the original language can be translated either way, then the latter would be truer of JC.
Next is John 7:8, in which my NIV says "not yet" and the KJV "not up yet", so there is no difference. (The NIV notes that "yet" is omitted in some manuscripts.)
Eighth is Titus 3:10, in which my NIV has "divisive person" and the KJV has "heretick". Because what Paul presumably has in mind is the person who perverts the Gospel, I prefer the latter for doctrinal reasons, not knowing which the original language supports.
Next is Matt. 5:22, in which my NIV omits "without a cause" and notes that the KJV includes that phrase. Again, doctrinally, the KJV reading better indicates righteous anger.
Tenth and last for now is Zech. 13:6, in which my NIV says "The wounds I was given" and the KJV says "Those with which I was wounded".
I see no meaningful difference in translation and thus in doctrine.

Over...

Again, as I pointed out, you are refusing to see the larger pattern or bigger picture. You keep saying, 'Well, it could legitimately be translated this other way' or offering some other weak excuse, and this goes on and on until you've completely missed the overall pattern. Your approach is like a detective who finds blood splatter, the murder weapon, DNA all over the victim and the murder weapon, video camera footage from the room, and a clear motive. This is evidence that would lead any normal detective to recognize the obvious conclusion that this person was murdered by the person attached to the DNA and the video camera footage of their face while in the room with the weapon. But instead, you're ignoring the pattern at the crime scene and trying to prove the murderer's innocence by attempting to refute each piece of evidence individually, saying things like, 'Well, it's legitimately possible this is a frame job.' Yet you offer no actual proof or evidence to support that alternative explanation for any of the pieces of evidence.

I get it. You either do not like the idea of God preserving His word in 1600s English and having to stand behind that truth unsettles you, or you have simply been conditioned for so many years that the Bible is some kind of never-ending shape shifter text where you can "Pick and Choose Your Own Adventure" type readings that you simply cannot see the forest for the trees. The fact that this belief is mainstream Christianity will most likely make it harder for you to break out of this type of stronghold or false belief. Again, you cannot demonstrate from the Bible that Jesus and His disciples talked about variants and wrestled over which readings to choose from. Your belief is outside of what the Bible says about itself. But good luck trying to prove otherwise. Oh, wait. Your like that detective who makes claims and assumptions and then never backs them up with any kind of real proof.

Your not thinking about motive from the enemy (i.e., the devil's perspective). Your not thinking what he has to gain by getting people to believe that God was not manifest in the flesh and other such related verses that are distorted for the worse. Modern Bibles actually teach that Jesus had a beginning, which is heresy. These are things you are simply choosing not to see or you simply do not understand them.



....
 
Looking at your link, I find 1Tim. 3:16 listed first, for which my NIV has He in the text and God in the footnote, indicating that various manuscripts support one or the other. I agree that God seems preferable, although He refers to God, so there is no doctrinal change.
Next is 1John 3:16, in which my NIV has "we know what love is" and the KJV has "perceive we the love of God". I agree that the KJV is the better reading doctrinally, because it more clearly indicates that it is God's love that is in view.
Third is John 3:16, in which my NIV says "one and only Son", whereas the KJV says "only begotten Son". Because "begotten" means "bringing a child into existence via sexual reproduction", I view the NIV as the better meaning.
Next is Matt. 1:1, in which my NIV says "the genealogy of JC" and the KJV says "the generation of JC". The former seems to be clearer,
although I see no difference in meaning and thus no change in doctrine.
Fifth is John 1:18, in which my NIV says "God the only Son" with a footnote citing the KJV "the only begotten Son". Again, the term begotten does not seem appropriate for referring to God, so I prefer God the Son (God the Father, and God the HS).
Sixth is Micah 5:2, in which my NIV says "from ancient days" with a footnote citing the KJV "from everlasting". If the original language can be translated either way, then the latter would be truer of JC.
Next is John 7:8, in which my NIV says "not yet" and the KJV "not up yet", so there is no difference. (The NIV notes that "yet" is omitted in some manuscripts.)
Eighth is Titus 3:10, in which my NIV has "divisive person" and the KJV has "heretick". Because what Paul presumably has in mind is the person who perverts the Gospel, I prefer the latter for doctrinal reasons, not knowing which the original language supports.
Next is Matt. 5:22, in which my NIV omits "without a cause" and notes that the KJV includes that phrase. Again, doctrinally, the KJV reading better indicates righteous anger.
Tenth and last for now is Zech. 13:6, in which my NIV says "The wounds I was given" and the KJV says "Those with which I was wounded".
I see no meaningful difference in translation and thus in doctrine.

Over...

Note: Keep in mind that this website is by Brandon Peterson and I do not agree with all of his beliefs, such as Once Saved Always Saved, or that a believer can claim that they are presently a sinner and that just believing in Jesus is the solution, implying that believers do not have to confess or forsake those sins (Proverbs 28:13 KJV) (1 John 1:9 KJV) (1 John 1:7 KJV). Charles Stanley's work was recommended by another person on his channel. Charles Stanley is a heretic. While I cannot claim the status of Brandon and those on his channel, Charles Stanley stated that you can live in gross sin and just believe in Jesus and be saved. Charles Stanley said, 'Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy.' This is heresy and of the darkest evil. Then again, the OSAS belief is popular here in America, although it is not as widely held outside our country.

Brandon also makes some choices in his KJV vs. Modern Bible differences website without always looking to the underlying original languages or the origins of words. He thinks Calvary and skull are not saying the same thing in Luke 23:33 KJV, when in reality they are. Calvary is from the Latin word meaning skull.



....
 
Note: Keep in mind that this website is by Brandon Peterson and I do not agree with all of his beliefs, such as Once Saved Always Saved, or that a believer can claim that they are presently a sinner and that just believing in Jesus is the solution, implying that believers do not have to confess or forsake those sins (Proverbs 28:13 KJV) (1 John 1:9 KJV) (1 John 1:7 KJV). Charles Stanley's work was recommended by another person on his channel. Charles Stanley is a heretic. While I cannot claim the status of Brandon and those on his channel, Charles Stanley stated that you can live in gross sin and just believe in Jesus and be saved. Charles Stanley said, 'Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy.' This is heresy and of the darkest evil. Then again, the OSAS belief is popular here in America, although it is not as widely held outside our country.

Brandon also makes some choices in his KJV vs. Modern Bible differences website without always looking to the underlying original languages or the origins of words. He thinks Calvary and skull are not saying the same thing in Luke 23:33 KJV, when in reality they are. Calvary is from the Latin word meaning skull.
....

Please do not repeat yourself. I asked for post #s where I missed your Scripture, but I see none.
I apologize for trying to agree with you, and I ask you to explain why you disagree with the creed I shared point by point
and verse by verse at your pace as time allows.

I have never used ChatGPT, I do not intend to do so now, and I apologize for echoing your slander at the point of recommending it.

I refuse to see nothing, and considering other reasonable translations is the mark of objectivity.
I dare say detectives use the same method rather than assume the pattern shown by circumstancial evidence.

I like the idea of God preserving His word in both 1600s English and 21st century English, which I thought you referred to as illumination.

I have studied GW for so many years that I have harmonized a lot of it, and I am continuing to be the lead learner on CC,
which is why I have been considering your comparison of the KJV with the 1984 NIV. I have never done that before.

Of course we should not view GW as a shape shifter text where you can "Pick and Choose Your Own Adventure", but neither should we view it as a rigid structure ossified in one effectively dictated version. The fact that this belief is mainstream Christianity should give you pause for humble reflection about papal temptations.

Variant versions and various moral issues were not relevant for Jesus and His disciples, so we must consider how what they taught applies to modern situations. My view is only outside what you say, which I began by respecting, but I always try to verify.

I thought "my PDF 77 changed doctrines at www.affectionsabove.com. " was your site and so my list of ten comparisons was discussing your work. ???
 
rew, I am asking for the source of your review of a little history in order to see whether it is very reliable.

I am also asking "So what?", which is what I ask myself whenever making an assertion for the purpose of seeing significance.
Without knowing the source, I cannot ascertain whether the so-called facts are inconvenient or not, much more whether any inconvenience is significant.

So far I do not even understand the problem with Nick having myrrh and aloes, much less the solution.
Nor do I understand what you think I want to believe, much less what unspecified accounts say regarding
evidence of something unspecified.

The issue of two high priests is supported by the Dead Sea Scrolls, all of which were written before 68 CE as well as hinted at by Josephus. Eusebius writing roughly 3 centuries later also supports this, and cites a 2nd century Jewish historian whose work is now known only in fragments as part of his sources. Numerous sources, both Jewish and Roman emphasize the limits on the Jewish high priests. Some did not even serve for a full year until Tiberius ordered that the rapid replacements stop.

As for Nicodemus, I trust that you recognize that this was a nickname, not a given one, but also, where would he have been able to obtain the quantity of myrrh and aloes that he brought to the tomb? The quantity would not have been available in an open market in Jerusalem. Even if a caravan had happened to arrive that specific day, the myrrh and aloe would largely have already been designated for the temple, not the general public, a couple pounds available for the general public would have been an unusually generous offer. So we are back to the question of how could he have obtained such a quantity on such short notice, less than 8 hours, if not accessing the supplies contained in the Jerusalem temple and who would have authorized such a move?
.
Rather than fire off another question to me, please answer that query with some point that fits the historic record. Personally, I can only come up with one other potential (unlikely) source, but even that source contradicts claims made in the gospel accounts.,
 
The issue of two high priests is supported by the Dead Sea Scrolls, all of which were written before 68 CE as well as hinted at by Josephus. Eusebius writing roughly 3 centuries later also supports this, and cites a 2nd century Jewish historian whose work is now known only in fragments as part of his sources. Numerous sources, both Jewish and Roman emphasize the limits on the Jewish high priests. Some did not even serve for a full year until Tiberius ordered that the rapid replacements stop.

As for Nicodemus, I trust that you recognize that this was a nickname, not a given one, but also, where would he have been able to obtain the quantity of myrrh and aloes that he brought to the tomb? The quantity would not have been available in an open market in Jerusalem. Even if a caravan had happened to arrive that specific day, the myrrh and aloe would largely have already been designated for the temple, not the general public, a couple pounds available for the general public would have been an unusually generous offer. So we are back to the question of how could he have obtained such a quantity on such short notice, less than 8 hours, if not accessing the supplies contained in the Jerusalem temple and who would have authorized such a move?
.
Rather than fire off another question to me, please answer that query with some point that fits the historic record. Personally, I can only come up with one other potential (unlikely) source, but even that source contradicts claims made in the gospel accounts.,

Sorry, but your post prompts more questions:

1. What do the Dead Sea scrolls say about two high priests and why is that an important issue? (Ditto re Eusebius etal.)
2. Why does where Nick got the m&a matter? What is your authoritative answer to that question?

Over...
 
Sorry, but your post prompts more questions:

1. What do the Dead Sea scrolls say about two high priests and why is that an important issue? (Ditto re Eusebius etal.)
2. Why does where Nick got the m&a matter? What is your authoritative answer to that question?

Over...
If there is an apparent historical contradiction, only three possibilities exist:

1. The interpreter of history is wrong

Misunderstanding sources, drawing faulty conclusions, or relying on outdated assumptions.

2. Their understanding of Scripture is wrong

Misreading genre, context, language, or intent.

3. The Bible is wrong.

—————————————-——————————

We’ve all seen where historians once thought something about the Bible wasn’t true, but many years later, the Bible proved historians wrong.

Here are just a few examples (from an article by Russ Whitten, which can be read in its entirety at this link: https://www.thedestinlog.com/story/...red-is-bible-historically-accurate/985681007/)

Critics used to believe … the Bible was wrong because they felt that King David was a legendary, mythical character. They pointed to the fact that there was no archaeological evidence that King David was an actual historical figure.

But then … in 1994, archaeologists discovered an ancient stone slab in northern Galilee that was inscribed with the references to King David and the "House of David."

Critics used to believe … the Bible was wrong because there was no evidence (outside of the Bible) that a group of people called the Hittites ever existed. The Hittite civilization is mentioned approximately 40 times in the Old Testament, thus skeptics were convinced that this proved the Bible is a mythical creation of ancient Hebrew writers.

But then … in 1906, a German archaeologist named Hugo Winckler was excavating in Boghaz-Koi, Turkey, and discovered the capital city of the ancient Hittite empire, the entire Hittite library and 10,000 clay tablets documenting the Hittite history. Scholars translated these writings and discovered that everything the Bible said about the Hittite empire was true.

Critics used to believe … that a king named Belshazzar never really existed, thus calling into question the historicity of the book of Daniel, which mentions this Babylonian king.

But then … in 1854, Henry Rawlinson discovered an inscription in Iraq that named Belshazzar as the oldest son and co-regent of King Nebonidus, who would often leave Belshazzar in charge of Babylon while he traveled. This discovery also helped to clarify Daniel 5:29, which states that Daniel was elevated to the “third highest ruler in the kingdom.”

Critics used to believe … the book of Acts was not historically accurate. A man named Sir William Ramsay, who is well known to be one of the greatest historical scholars and archaeologists in history, decided to try to disprove the Bible as the inspired Word of God by showing that the book of Acts was not historically accurate.

But the … after 30 years of archaeological research in the Middle East, Ramsay came to the conclusion that “Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy … this author should be placed along with the very greatest historians.” He later wrote a book on the trustworthiness of the Bible based on his discoveries and converted to Christianity. Sir Ramsay found no historical or geographical mistakes in the book of Acts. This is amazing when we realize that in the book of Acts, Luke mentions 32 countries, 54 cities, nine Mediterranean islands and 95 people and he did not get one wrong. Compare that with the Encyclopedia Britannica. The first year the Encyclopedia Britannica was published it contained so many mistakes regarding places in the United States that it had to be recalled.

Critics used to believe … the Old Testament simply could not be reliable because they felt that over a long period of time the Old Testament writings would have been changed, altered, edited or corrupted.

But then … in 1947, the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered. These scrolls contained, among other writings, every book in the Old Testament (except Esther). Until the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, the earliest copy of the complete Old Testament was from A.D. 900. Scholars compared this copy with the Dead Sea Scrolls (produced around 1,000 years earlier) and found that the Old Testament had been handed down accurately through the centuries.

The prestigious Smithsonian Institution’s Department of Anthropology has offered the following official statement pertaining to the historical reliability of the Old Testament:

“ … the historical books of the Old Testament are as accurate historical documents as any that we have from antiquity and are in fact more accurate than many of the Egyptian, Mesopotamian, or Greek histories. These Biblical records can be and are used as are other ancient documents in archaeological work.”

In other words, not only does archaeology confirm that the Bible is historically accurate, but professional archaeologists actually use the Bible as a guide in their work.

The great Jewish archaeologist Nelson Glueck, who is known to be one of the top three archaeologists in history, has stated the following: "No archaeological discovery has ever contradicted a single, properly understood Biblical statement."
 
What people confidently labeled as error has often turned out to be incomplete history or faulty interpretation, not a failure of the biblical record. Just because critics at one point claimed the Bible contradicted history, that doesn’t prove the Bible wrong. Later evidence often shows that history actually confirms what the Bible recorded. Historical “disproofs” are often premature or based on incomplete information, which we have now seen many times before.
 
Sorry, but your post prompts more questions:

1. What do the Dead Sea scrolls say about two high priests and why is that an important issue? (Ditto re Eusebius etal.)
2. Why does where Nick got the m&a matter? What is your authoritative answer to that question?

Over...
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Well, consider the timeline for collecting the myrrh and aloes. Whoever did this did not know there would be a body to bury until after 3pm, and the Passover started at 6pm when he could not work, i.e. carry 75 pounds. Major problem to not only find but also collect and deliver. Hence it came from the Jerusalem temple in all likelihood, which needed the consent of the high priest, likely both. The only other plausible source would have been Antipas, but he would be unlikely to store that type of quantity in Jerusalem.

As for the issue of two high priests, which one did Paul go to? Neither had any judicial authority including zero in Damascus and one was clearly a Jesus supporter, yet the two had to work together. Now if you know your history, there are other issues as well, but that is different matter

What it comes down to is a huge pile of evidence that the accounts in the gospels and Acts are highly questionable as they exist today. Two gospels show evidence of having been edited, Acts is also known to have a potentially deleted ending, a long version of Acts is known to exist, but it is of unclear dating, so maybe a later addition.

Now back to my question, very pertinent as you chide people for not answering your questions, how do you propose that Nicodemus managed to find and deliver 75 pounds of myrrh and aloes in such a short period of time?