not a problem... I think I'm speaking to a brick wall with the dove anyway... what's the old song lyric... "there is none so blind, as he who will not see....."
Acts 2:38 Comparison: Evangelical vs. Oneness / Baptismal-Regeneration View
- Thread starter LightBearer316
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Thanks for the understanding. It's an odd problem with these systematic theologies. They've taught an overview and how to string verses together to support the system and even what translations to use that may support or seem to support the system and then there's no breaking through the structured thinking even with Scripture and legitimate exegetical factors. Quite the battleground that's been created and filled with camp-based soldiers.
Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
(NOTE: The One born in Bethlehem — the Lion of the tribe of Judah, Rev 5:5 — is Jesus, who is from EVERLASTING.)
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(NOTE: Before creation, the Word — Jesus, Rev 13:19 — was with God the Father, and was/is also God.)
Jesus is the creator of our universe; Jn 1:3 & 10, Col 1:16 & 17, 1 Cor 8:6, Eph 3:9.
The Father sent the Son Jn 3:16.
Jn 16:28 Jesus said, I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father
(NOTE: The SON of God/Jesus say's, He came forth from the Father. He will return to the Father. Although, The Son is ONE WITH, he's NOT the Father)
(NOTE: The Son of God — Jesus — says He came forth from the Father and will return to the Father. The Son is ONE WITH the Father, but He is NOT the Father.)
Jn 17:5 O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(NOTE: Before the world began, the Son enjoyed glory WITH the Father — NOT AS the Father.)
When Jesus prays to the Father:
(Question: Does Jesus pray to himself?)
John 14:28 Jesus say's, the Father is greater then him:
(Question: Is this scripture wrong or did Jesus lie here?)
John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Question: Did/does Jesus send Himself? Is Jesus returning to Himself? Compare John 3:16 — God sent His Son.)
Heb 10:12 (B&C) after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
(Question: Does Jesus sit down next to himself? BTW this is the risen, glorified Jesus — not the earthly Jesus.)
Rev 5:7 And he (Vs 5, the Loin of the tribe of Juda, Vs 6 the Lamb) came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
(MY NOTE: Again, this is the risen/glorified Jesus. Question: Does the glorified Jesus/Lamb/Christ take the book from himself?)
Scripture states FOUR TIMES that God the Father said to God the Son, “Sit at My right hand.”
Ps 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Matt 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Lk 20:42 David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
God the Son — Jehovah/Jesus — is the agent by whom God the Father works within our universe.
God the Son (Jehovah/Jesus) is PREEMINENT (Col 1:18) in ALL things within our realm:
Creation: Jn 1:3 & 10, Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6
Redemption: Gal 3:13, Rev 5:9, Col 1:14, Rom3:24
Resurrection: Jn 11:25, Acts 4:33, 1Pet 1:3 & 3:21
Mediation: 1 Tim 2:5, Heb 8:6, 9:15, 12:24
Judgment: Jn 5:22, Rom 2:16, 2 Tim 4:1
After creation; Gen 1: Jehovah > God the Son rested from his work.
After Jesus/Jehovah > God the Son finished the work of redemption. He go's to Heaven & sits down next at the right hand of Jehovah God the Father (Acts 7:55-56, Eph 1:20, Col 3:1, Heb 8:1)
Holy Spirit baptism & eternal life given by GRACE thru FAITH & no ritual formulas needed:
Eph 1
13 In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation, and [as a result] believed in Him, were stamped with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit [the One promised by Christ] as owned and protected [by God].
14 The Spirit is the guarantee [the first installment, the pledge, a foretaste] of our inheritance until the redemption of God’s own [purchased] possession [His believers], to the praise of His glory.
(NOTE: The One born in Bethlehem — the Lion of the tribe of Judah, Rev 5:5 — is Jesus, who is from EVERLASTING.)
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(NOTE: Before creation, the Word — Jesus, Rev 13:19 — was with God the Father, and was/is also God.)
Jesus is the creator of our universe; Jn 1:3 & 10, Col 1:16 & 17, 1 Cor 8:6, Eph 3:9.
The Father sent the Son Jn 3:16.
Jn 16:28 Jesus said, I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father
(NOTE: The SON of God/Jesus say's, He came forth from the Father. He will return to the Father. Although, The Son is ONE WITH, he's NOT the Father)
(NOTE: The Son of God — Jesus — says He came forth from the Father and will return to the Father. The Son is ONE WITH the Father, but He is NOT the Father.)
Jn 17:5 O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(NOTE: Before the world began, the Son enjoyed glory WITH the Father — NOT AS the Father.)
When Jesus prays to the Father:
(Question: Does Jesus pray to himself?)
John 14:28 Jesus say's, the Father is greater then him:
(Question: Is this scripture wrong or did Jesus lie here?)
John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Question: Did/does Jesus send Himself? Is Jesus returning to Himself? Compare John 3:16 — God sent His Son.)
Heb 10:12 (B&C) after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
(Question: Does Jesus sit down next to himself? BTW this is the risen, glorified Jesus — not the earthly Jesus.)
Rev 5:7 And he (Vs 5, the Loin of the tribe of Juda, Vs 6 the Lamb) came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
(MY NOTE: Again, this is the risen/glorified Jesus. Question: Does the glorified Jesus/Lamb/Christ take the book from himself?)
Scripture states FOUR TIMES that God the Father said to God the Son, “Sit at My right hand.”
Ps 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Matt 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Lk 20:42 David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
God the Son — Jehovah/Jesus — is the agent by whom God the Father works within our universe.
God the Son (Jehovah/Jesus) is PREEMINENT (Col 1:18) in ALL things within our realm:
Creation: Jn 1:3 & 10, Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6
Redemption: Gal 3:13, Rev 5:9, Col 1:14, Rom3:24
Resurrection: Jn 11:25, Acts 4:33, 1Pet 1:3 & 3:21
Mediation: 1 Tim 2:5, Heb 8:6, 9:15, 12:24
Judgment: Jn 5:22, Rom 2:16, 2 Tim 4:1
After creation; Gen 1: Jehovah > God the Son rested from his work.
After Jesus/Jehovah > God the Son finished the work of redemption. He go's to Heaven & sits down next at the right hand of Jehovah God the Father (Acts 7:55-56, Eph 1:20, Col 3:1, Heb 8:1)
Holy Spirit baptism & eternal life given by GRACE thru FAITH & no ritual formulas needed:
Eph 1
13 In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation, and [as a result] believed in Him, were stamped with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit [the One promised by Christ] as owned and protected [by God].
14 The Spirit is the guarantee [the first installment, the pledge, a foretaste] of our inheritance until the redemption of God’s own [purchased] possession [His believers], to the praise of His glory.
Matthew 5:22
King James Version
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
LOL, you've already sent me there a couple times SO...
BTW fool definition then & now isn't even close, Google it
There was no murderous hate being directed. His argument was silly & fools act silly. "It's that simple — just as simple as Romans 1:5 & 16:26 are to read, unless someone is trying to bend & twist them to fit their denominations doctrine.
No, your interpretation does...
Peter explicitly says he is speaking in antitype (symbol), not literal water saving. Antitype, technical term meaning: "a symbolic counterpart, a figure, a representation." He is telling you up front: "I'm speaking symbolically, not literally."
Noah was NOT saved by water > he was saved from water. Peter says: "8 souls were saved through water" > Not by water. The water was the judgment that killed the world. The ark (God’s provision) saved them. So the water in the story represents judgment, not salvation.
Peter denies that he is talking about physical water: "not the removal of the filth of the flesh." That is the clearest possible way to say: "I am NOT talking about literal water washing your body." He removes water baptism from the equation before he even defines what he is talking about.
Peter defines the saving "baptism" as something internal, not external. Peter continues: "but the answer of a good conscience toward God." This is not water, it's not a ritual, it's not a physical act. This is an internal response of faith, the heart turning to God. Peter is describing conversion, not immersion.
Peter grounds the saving power in the resurrection, not in water. He finishes the sentence: "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." So the structure is: baptism (defined as a good conscience response to God) saves us, through the resurrection. Not through water, not through ritual, not through immersion. The saving agent is Christ’s resurrection, not the baptistry.
There is no way to make this passage teach water regeneration without ignoring Peter's own clarifications.
Peter is using Noah's flood as a symbol. The water represented judgment, not salvation. The ark represented God's saving provision. The "baptism" that saves is not water (Peter denies that explicitly), but the inward appeal to God for a clean conscience > a faith response, made effective through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
GODS word says FOOL I don't care what you claim it to be.
No I have never shared that verse with you.
We are to love our brothers, IF, IF they are brothers?
I have questioned you to try to figure out why you can't see HIS word like Paul questioned the Ephens in Acts 19 and had the kinda the same repy.
Not answering if you have received the Holy Ghost or how you were baptized tells the story! Am I wrong??
They answered and the problem was resolved. PRIDE keeps it lingering forever.
Even something as simple as HIS WORD can be, don't call anyone a fool you don't understand and make try to prove your still right.
PRIDE.
Which got Satan kicked out of Heaven, and is keeping you from opening your eyes to see.
I have already shared many time on how to be reborn so you can see, and will try again.
Believe, Repent, Get baptized in JESUS name for remission of your sins and PRAY for JESUS to fill you with HIS spirit! John 3:5, Acts 2:38.
He sure will, the promise is for all HE wants none to parish.
Scripture on Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS)
John 3:16 “Whoever believes in Him… has everlasting life.”
(NOTE: Has = present tense. If failing to endure or committing a sin could exile you, then God’s promise isn’t true.)
Jn 3:36 “He that believes on the Son has everlasting life.”
(NOTE: Eternal life is not “until your next failure.”)
Jn 10:28 “I give unto them eternal life; they shall never perish.”
(NOTE: “Never perish” does not mean “unless you don’t confess fast enough.”)
Jn 11:26 “Whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.”
(NOTE: Jesus said it. I believe Him. Some don’t.)
Acts 2:21 “Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
(NOTE: Faith—not performance—is the condition.)
Jn 3:15 “Whoever believes… has eternal life.”)
(NOTE: Faith alone.)
Rom 10:9 “Confess… believe… you shall be saved.”
(NOTE: His blood paid for all believers sin—once for all.)
Rom 10:11 “Whoever believes on Him shall not be ashamed.”
(NOTE: It does not say “whoever never sins again.”)
Rom 8:38–39 Nothing “shall be able to separate us from the love of God.”
(NOTE: Christ died for confessed and unconfessed sins. His resurrection is the Father’s receipt: Payment accepted.)
Rom 11:29 “The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.”
(NOTE: When God gives the Spirit, it’s permanent.)
Eph 4:4–5 “One body… one Spirit… one Lord… one faith… one baptism.”
(NOTE: One Spirit baptism (not water) unites all believers.)
1 Cor 12:13 “By one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.”
(NOTE: Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit, forming one Body—the Church.)
Col 2:11 “Circumcision made without hands…”
(NOTE: The New Covenant heart‑circumcision (Deut. 30:6), performed by Christ Himself.)
Jn 14:16 “He will give you another Comforter… to be with you forever.”
(NOTE: The Spirit abides in believers forever.)
Summary of the Gospel That Saves. Faith alone in Christ’s death (sin’s wage paid), burial (proof of death) & resurrection (the Father’s acceptance of the payment) seals the believer forever (1 Cor. 15:1–4).
John 3:16 “Whoever believes in Him… has everlasting life.”
(NOTE: Has = present tense. If failing to endure or committing a sin could exile you, then God’s promise isn’t true.)
Jn 3:36 “He that believes on the Son has everlasting life.”
(NOTE: Eternal life is not “until your next failure.”)
Jn 10:28 “I give unto them eternal life; they shall never perish.”
(NOTE: “Never perish” does not mean “unless you don’t confess fast enough.”)
Jn 11:26 “Whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.”
(NOTE: Jesus said it. I believe Him. Some don’t.)
Acts 2:21 “Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
(NOTE: Faith—not performance—is the condition.)
Jn 3:15 “Whoever believes… has eternal life.”)
(NOTE: Faith alone.)
Rom 10:9 “Confess… believe… you shall be saved.”
(NOTE: His blood paid for all believers sin—once for all.)
Rom 10:11 “Whoever believes on Him shall not be ashamed.”
(NOTE: It does not say “whoever never sins again.”)
Rom 8:38–39 Nothing “shall be able to separate us from the love of God.”
(NOTE: Christ died for confessed and unconfessed sins. His resurrection is the Father’s receipt: Payment accepted.)
Rom 11:29 “The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.”
(NOTE: When God gives the Spirit, it’s permanent.)
Eph 4:4–5 “One body… one Spirit… one Lord… one faith… one baptism.”
(NOTE: One Spirit baptism (not water) unites all believers.)
1 Cor 12:13 “By one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.”
(NOTE: Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit, forming one Body—the Church.)
Col 2:11 “Circumcision made without hands…”
(NOTE: The New Covenant heart‑circumcision (Deut. 30:6), performed by Christ Himself.)
Jn 14:16 “He will give you another Comforter… to be with you forever.”
(NOTE: The Spirit abides in believers forever.)
Summary of the Gospel That Saves. Faith alone in Christ’s death (sin’s wage paid), burial (proof of death) & resurrection (the Father’s acceptance of the payment) seals the believer forever (1 Cor. 15:1–4).
During our previous exchange I provided some input on some basic Greek grammar that you didn't like - to put it mildly - so I doubt you'll like this either.
The definition of the Greek word being translated "antitype":
- BDAG Lexicon defines it as: 1. pert. to that which corresponds to something else, adj. corresponding to; 2. subst. τὸ ἀ. copy, antitype, representation. It says #1 is how 1Pet3:21 uses it.
- It does not mean “just symbolic, not real.”
- It means corresponding reality, fulfillment, or counterpart to a prior type. This is why these translations chose these wordings:
- NET 1 Peter 3:21 And this prefigured baptism, which now saves you– not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience to God– through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
- ESV 1 Peter 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ
- NAS 1 Peter 3:21 And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
- It actually means about the opposite of what you're saying.
- It means corresponding reality, fulfillment, or counterpart to a prior type. This is why these translations chose these wordings:
You don't know what antitype means. It means the reality that a symbol represents
Standard fare.
OSAS presentations quite normally highlight verses saying believers “have eternal life” while ignoring Scripture’s repeated link between salvation and continuing faith in Christ, making the argument incomplete as usual.
Your first verse: What if we look at the other present tense in John3:16 and legitimately translate it as ongoing also: "Whoever is believing in Him....has eternal life"? Why does this make or not make sense? What if we bring out the fact that this is stated as a purpose clause - the purpose for God sending His Son is so...? Does this soften how it's typically used - why or why not? What if we take the rest of the instruction from Scripture and include all the other things involved in how God describes what genuine believing involves and looks like according to Him?
It's a big Text...
In our last exchange, I regret overreacting & owe you an apology.
Peter's own explanation of his analogy makes the interpretation clear. When you simply follow his grammar & his clarifications, the passage cannot teach water regeneration.
Peter's argument is straightforward:
The flood water represented judgment, not salvation.
The ark represented God's saving provision.
Baptism "corresponds" to this pattern.
The saving baptism is not physical washing.
It is the appeal of a good conscience, an internal faith response.
The saving power is Christ's resurrection, not water.
To make this passage teach water regeneration, you must:
Reverse the flood imagery, ignore Peter's explicit denial of physical washing, redefine "appeal of a good conscience", relocate the saving power from the resurrection to the baptistry'
Peter's own clarifications eliminate that interpretation.
Thank you. Forgiven as commanded.
I have followed the language - it's what I normally work to accomplish from the Greek Text. Baptism is an appeal of a good conscience directed to God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ - baptism is not washing filth from flesh.
To me it's clear Peter is saying what baptism is and is not, and Peter is not denying the necessity of baptism. The saving part is the appeal - baptism is the appeal - or the appeal is made during baptism - which is why I provided Luke22:16 as a parallel: be baptized (command) and wash away (command) your sins [by] calling on the name of the Lord - which calling Paul also ties to faith and confession in Rom10. I think all these things tie together and use different wording and concepts from Scriptures that tend to throw us a bit.
I agree that some of these verses seem to lack some clarity re: water, but I don't think 1Pet3:21 is one of them and I think the preponderance of the evidence is for water and not against it. But I also think verses such as these make it clear that there is no magic to the water.
Based upon this thread and a few others re: baptism, I went through as I recall all 91 NC verses that use the cognates for baptism. I did this in one sitting 2 days ago so I could get the overall sense - the forest through the trees - and I read parts of a 2,000 page treatise on baptism written as I recall in the late 19th century. Through each verse and all together, my sense is that baptism is required by the Lord in all but special circumstances which He may determine.
I was not taught this. I was taught more in line with what you believe. I no longer think that is correct.
You're shifting the discussion away from what the verses actually say & into a philosophical category of "ongoing belief" that John himself does not use the way you're using it. Dealing with your points directly & textually.
The present tense in Jn 3:16 does not mean "continuous performance. If your reading were correct, then every present tense statement in John would require ongoing effort " including: "whoever believes has eternal life" ,” "he who hears My word has eternal life", "he who comes to Me shall never hunger" & "he who believes in Me shall never thirst". But John never attaches duration of life to duration of belief. He attaches possession of life to the act of believing. This is the gnomic present, a general truth, not a stopwatch.
Your translation (whoever is believing) doesn't change the promise. Even if we render it that way, the result clause is still: "has eternal life." Not: "has life as long as he keeps believing", "has life until he sins," "has life until he fails to endure." You're adding conditions John never states.
The purpose clause strengthens OSAS, not weakens it. You asked whether the purpose clause softens the typical OSAS reading. It actually reinforces it. The purpose of God sending His Son is: "so that the believing ones will not perish but have eternal life." If believers can perish, then God's stated purpose fails. If eternal life can end, then it was never eternal. Your reading makes God's purpose contingent on human consistency. John's reading makes God's purpose fulfilled in Christ.
"Continuing faith" is the fruit of salvation, not the condition for keeping it. You're importing a theological category into John that John never uses. John distinguishes: believing > life & not believing > condemnation. He never says: "believing > life until you stop believing," or "eternal life lasts only as long as your faithfulness does". Thats theology imposed on the text, not drawn from it.
"Its a big Text” is not an argument. Appealing to the size of Scripture doesn't overturn the clarity of Jesus' promises. If you want to argue that salvation is conditional on lifelong performance, you need: a verse that says eternal life can end, a verse that says believers can perish, a verse that says the Spirit can unseal a believer, a verse that says Christ can lose a sheep, a verse that says the Father revokes His gift. John gives the opposite on every point.
The core issue remains untouched. Jesus says: has eternal life, shall never perish, shall never die, shall not come into condemnation, no one can snatch them out of My hand. Your interpretation requires all of these to be temporary, conditional, or reversible. John & Jesus say the opposite.
Satan was in Heaven right?
If your interested?
John 3:16
King James Version
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
JESUS says, SHOULD NOT PERISH.
So it's clear that HE is not saying if you believe in HIM YOU WILL NOT PERISH.
Should not perish because if you believe in HIM you will OBEY HIM and what HE says.
ALL of what HE says.
like Just before HE said that he said this,
John 3:5
King James Version
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Meaning we have to be born of WATER and of SPIRIT TO ENTER.
So now there is some conditions to being reborn, more than just believe.
So how are we born of water?
How are we born of spirit?
Yep, back to Acts 2:38-39
King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Which all lines up with what Paul in Acts 19:1
See how ALL of HIS word works together?
I appreciate the effort you've put into the Greek, but your conclusion still requires you to reverse Peter's own structure. The issue is resolved by walking through the text as Peter gives it, not as later theology wants it to be.
You keep equating "baptism" with water, but Peter explicitly separates the two. Peter says: "not the removal of dirt from the flesh." That phrase refers to literal water baptism, because washing dirt off a body is the only thing water baptism physically does. If Peter meant water baptism saves, this would be the most confusing way possible to express it. Your interpretation requires all 3 of these to be true at the same time: "baptism saves," "not the physical washing," but actually "the physical washing is required." That crumbles under its own weight.
Peter defines the saving element as the appeal, not the ritual. Peter's definition is: "but the appeal of a good conscience toward God". This is: internal, volitional, faith based, moral. It is not: water, immersion, ritual, external action. You keep saying "baptism is the appeal," but Peter says the opposite: not the external washing, but the internal appeal. You're merging the 2. Peter is separating them.
You're importing Acts 22:16 into 1 Pet 3:21, but the grammar doesn't support your use of it. Acts 22:16: wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord. The participle (calling) is the operative action.
The washing is tied to the calling, not the water. You're using Acts 22:16 to override Peter's own explanation. Peter doesn't need Paul to clarify him, Peter clarifies himself.
You say "baptism is the appeal," but Peter says the appeal is what baptism is not. Peter's contrast is: NOT the external washing BUT the internal appeal. You're collapsing the contrast Peter is making. Peter is distinguishing: the outward ritual (not saving), the inward appeal (saving). You're merging them into 1 saving event. Peter is separating them into 2 different categories.
You appeal to "the preponderance of the evidence," but Peter's own sentence contradicts your conclusion. You said: "I think the preponderance of the evidence is for water." But in this passage: Peter denies the physical washing, Peter defines the saving element as internal, Peter grounds the saving power in the resurrection & Peter uses Noah's water as judgment, not salvation. Your conclusion requires: water = salvation, Peter = unclear, resurrection = secondary. Peter's conclusion is: water = judgment, ark = salvation, , appeal = the saving response, resurrection = the saving power. Your reading reverses every part of Peter's structure.
Your "forest through the trees" argument is not exegesis. You said you read 91 baptism verses & a 2,000‑page treatise & concluded baptism is required. But none of that changes what Peter actually wrote. Volume of reading ≠ correctness of interpretation. Peter's own clarifications—not 91 verses, not a treatise—govern 1 Peter 3:21.
The core issue remains untouched. Peter says: NOT the physical washing, BUT the appeal, through the resurrection. You say: the physical washing is required, the appeal happens during the washing, the resurrection is part of the package.
Those are not the same thing. Your interpretation requires Peter to be unclear. Peter's own words are not unclear.
To make 1 Peter 3:21 teach water regeneration, you must: reverse the flood imagery, ignore Peter's denial of physical washing, redefine "appeal of a good conscience & relocate the saving power from the resurrection to the baptistry. Peter's own clarifications eliminate that interpretation.
You put a red x on my statement,
On some really thinking that after we get saved JESUS will never leave us.
So do you really think a person who was filled with the Holy Ghost which is the spirit of JESUS himself could get reborn and do anything he likes and stay reborn?
Not saying you would, examples.
You go to bar, cuss smoke get drunk night after night and you really think JESUS is inside of you?
Watching porn with JESUS inside of you, do you think HES going to watch it with you?
The second part you disagree with, what do you disagree with?
It's all HIS word and all goes together like a puzzle with no pieces missing.
Repent - Water Baptism - Spirit Baptism
John the Baptist's purpose & baptism were preparatory, not remissive. His repeatedly stated mission was to prepare the way of the Lord (Mal 3:1, Matt 3:3, Mark 1:2–3). His "baptism of repentance" was a call for Israel to return to God Strong's Hebrew: 7725. שׁוּב (shub) -- Return, turn back, restore, repent an outward & inward cleansing that prepared the people to meet their long‑promised Messiah who alone would forgive sins. John, Jesus & Peter spoke Aramaic & Hebrew, where "repent" meant: ISRAEL return to GOD! Not the later Greek idea of "change your mind."
Acts 19:4 confirms this: "John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people that they should believe on Him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."
(NOTE: John preached to ISRAEL, "You're off course repent/return & believe in the 1 coming after me," Messiah, who alone will/can remit & pardon sins.)
John's water baptism did not remove or remit sin. "Nothing external removes sin." Israel's sacrificial system dealt with sin only by covering it. It did not remove or forgive sin. Once a year the high priest offered innocent animal blood sacrifices for the whole nation, but these sacrifices only covered sin & only for 1 year. The process had to be repeated annually..
Water baptism does not remit or pardon sin. Repentance does not remit or pardon sin. Obedience does not remit or pardon sin. Sabbath observance does not remit or pardon sin. Tithing does not remit or pardon sin. "Nothing external removes sin."
What removes sin, how & why:
Only faith & faith alone-placed in the finished, sin‑redeeming death & resurrection of the Lord Jesus-brings forgiveness. All glory, all credit, all praise belongs to our great God & Savior, Jesus the Christ.
The Word became flesh (Jn 1:1, 14 & Rev 19:13), born of a woman (Gal 4:4) by the Holy Spirit (Matt 1:18-25 & Luke 1:26-38). His humanity was real & His blood was sinless (2 Cor 5:21; Heb 4:15; 1 Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 1:19; 1 Pet 2:22).
Scripture is clear: "Without shedding of blood there is no remission" (Heb 9:22). Jesus said, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (Matt 26:28). Revelation affirms the same: He washed us from our sins in His own blood (Rev 1:5).
Hebrews identifies the Lord Jesus as our great High Priest (Heb 4:14), called by God after the order of Melchizedek (Heb 5:10). Under the Old Covenant, the pattern was sin-imputation by the high priest. In Leviticus 16:21, Aaron laid both hands on the substitute, confessed the sins of the nation, transferring-imputing-those sins onto the innocent victim. That was the foreshadow.
Jesus is the fulfillment.
Jesus is the mediator of the New Testament (Heb 9:15 & 12:24), our great High Priest (Heb 4:14) & the One who offered Himself as the sacrifice (Matt 26:53). The risen Christ is the New Covenant High Priest who performs the real sin-transfer.
When we call on the name of the Lord (Acts 2:21 & Rom 10:13) & place our faith in Jesus' sin-atoning death & resurrection, He forgives all our sins (Heb 10:10–18) & imputes our sins onto Himself (Heb 10:10; 2 Cor 5:19; Rom 4:8, 11, 22–24). At that same moment, He places His forever (Jn 14:16), salvation‑sealing (Eph 1:13–14; 4:30; 2 Cor 1:22; 5:5; 2 Tim 1:14) indwelling Holy Spirit in you.
Anyone can dunk someone into a pool of water. Only Jesus, who knows the true heart of man, can baptize-place-His Holy Spirit in-you. Jesus then imputes His righteousness to us (2 Cor 5:21, Ja 2:23 & Isa 61:10), the very righteousness pictured as the white robe in Revelation 19:7–8 that grants us entrance to the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Finally:
The only thing that removes sin from the soul is faith placed in the finished, sacrificial, sin‑atoning work of our great God & Savior, Jesus Christ. Amen.
John the Baptist's purpose & baptism were preparatory, not remissive. His repeatedly stated mission was to prepare the way of the Lord (Mal 3:1, Matt 3:3, Mark 1:2–3). His "baptism of repentance" was a call for Israel to return to God Strong's Hebrew: 7725. שׁוּב (shub) -- Return, turn back, restore, repent an outward & inward cleansing that prepared the people to meet their long‑promised Messiah who alone would forgive sins. John, Jesus & Peter spoke Aramaic & Hebrew, where "repent" meant: ISRAEL return to GOD! Not the later Greek idea of "change your mind."
Acts 19:4 confirms this: "John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people that they should believe on Him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."
(NOTE: John preached to ISRAEL, "You're off course repent/return & believe in the 1 coming after me," Messiah, who alone will/can remit & pardon sins.)
John's water baptism did not remove or remit sin. "Nothing external removes sin." Israel's sacrificial system dealt with sin only by covering it. It did not remove or forgive sin. Once a year the high priest offered innocent animal blood sacrifices for the whole nation, but these sacrifices only covered sin & only for 1 year. The process had to be repeated annually..
Water baptism does not remit or pardon sin. Repentance does not remit or pardon sin. Obedience does not remit or pardon sin. Sabbath observance does not remit or pardon sin. Tithing does not remit or pardon sin. "Nothing external removes sin."
What removes sin, how & why:
Only faith & faith alone-placed in the finished, sin‑redeeming death & resurrection of the Lord Jesus-brings forgiveness. All glory, all credit, all praise belongs to our great God & Savior, Jesus the Christ.
The Word became flesh (Jn 1:1, 14 & Rev 19:13), born of a woman (Gal 4:4) by the Holy Spirit (Matt 1:18-25 & Luke 1:26-38). His humanity was real & His blood was sinless (2 Cor 5:21; Heb 4:15; 1 Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 1:19; 1 Pet 2:22).
Scripture is clear: "Without shedding of blood there is no remission" (Heb 9:22). Jesus said, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (Matt 26:28). Revelation affirms the same: He washed us from our sins in His own blood (Rev 1:5).
Hebrews identifies the Lord Jesus as our great High Priest (Heb 4:14), called by God after the order of Melchizedek (Heb 5:10). Under the Old Covenant, the pattern was sin-imputation by the high priest. In Leviticus 16:21, Aaron laid both hands on the substitute, confessed the sins of the nation, transferring-imputing-those sins onto the innocent victim. That was the foreshadow.
Jesus is the fulfillment.
Jesus is the mediator of the New Testament (Heb 9:15 & 12:24), our great High Priest (Heb 4:14) & the One who offered Himself as the sacrifice (Matt 26:53). The risen Christ is the New Covenant High Priest who performs the real sin-transfer.
When we call on the name of the Lord (Acts 2:21 & Rom 10:13) & place our faith in Jesus' sin-atoning death & resurrection, He forgives all our sins (Heb 10:10–18) & imputes our sins onto Himself (Heb 10:10; 2 Cor 5:19; Rom 4:8, 11, 22–24). At that same moment, He places His forever (Jn 14:16), salvation‑sealing (Eph 1:13–14; 4:30; 2 Cor 1:22; 5:5; 2 Tim 1:14) indwelling Holy Spirit in you.
Anyone can dunk someone into a pool of water. Only Jesus, who knows the true heart of man, can baptize-place-His Holy Spirit in-you. Jesus then imputes His righteousness to us (2 Cor 5:21, Ja 2:23 & Isa 61:10), the very righteousness pictured as the white robe in Revelation 19:7–8 that grants us entrance to the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Finally:
The only thing that removes sin from the soul is faith placed in the finished, sacrificial, sin‑atoning work of our great God & Savior, Jesus Christ. Amen.
I'm not shifting into philosophy but remaining in the language of the verse. I'm going to attempt to address your entire argument in a brief response by focusing on this one verse and mainly the verb tense.
I agree with categorizing the present tense as gnomic, which establishes a general truth.
The gnomic present in John3:16 creates a logical equivalence: anyone who is a believing one has eternal life, and anyone who has eternal life is a believing one. This shows that eternal life is inseparable from ongoing relational faith—not a one-time past act—and anytime the issue of having life is addressed, the one who has it must be a believing one.
Nothing in the grammar or purpose clause overrides this: eternal life belongs to those in the category of believers, and not being in that category - either by never entering it or by leaving that relational posture - removes one from it.
This gives reason to consider what John means by “eternal.” In addition, this verse does not tell us everything that being a believing one entails. Thus my comment about it being a big Text.