Again, I did not say he HAD to be named, so YOU are the one groping for some ridiculous reason to find fault!
Resolving Problematic Interpretations of Scripture
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Again, I did not say he HAD to be named, so YOU are the one groping for some ridiculous reason to find fault!
The survey of Romans 1-11 (R#1-42) will now be applied to the TULIP and MFW doctrines in order to see which parts of these interpretations are supported by that Scripture. This application will continue the enumeration begun by the survey.
43. Regarding Total depravity, R#1-6 teach that all normal adult humans are sinners and that God’s intent (will/desire) is to lead them to repent, so they will not condemn themselves to suffer righteous wrath—which implies that sinners are enabled by God’s leading to repent, so their depravity does not totally nullify MFW.
44. Regarding Unconditional election, R#10, 11, 14 & 15 specifically cite faith/belief as the condition for receiving s/e. R#17 illustrates this truth with the example of Abraham leading to the conclusion that faith is the condition for justification or s/e in R#18. R#34 laments that Jews as a whole failed to satisfy the condition of faith, and R#35 celebrates that everyone may satisfy that condition.
45. Regarding Limited atonement, R#20&21 indicate that Christ died to pay the penalty for all sins of all sinners, and R#29 laments that most Jews reject Christ’s atonement, although R#37 finds consolation because there remains a remnant who have not stumbled over the stumbling-stone, who is Christ (R#34).
46. Regarding Irresistible grace, R#3&4 refer to wicked souls who spurn God’s kindness and do not repent. References to “all who believe” (R#11) and to “the man who has faith” (R#15) imply there are some who resist saving faith. R#32 cites pharaoh as an example of a sinner who hardened his heart against God’s will.
47. Regarding Perseverance, R#6 implies the need for those who do not resist God’s leading to persist in doing that. R#40 mentions God’s kindness to believers provided that they continue to believe, because if not they “also will be cut off”.
In summary, instead of manifesting divine love, tulipists accuse God/the HS of hating half of humanity, which borders on blasphemy, and makes their claim to be Christians (“Lord, Lord”) problematic (Matt. 7:21).
48. Regarding Moral volition, R#9 teaches that the purpose of the law is to make souls conscious of sin, and R#10-11 teach how to attain righteousness from God. R#22 urges Christians not to continue sinning, and R#26&27 contrast the sinful nature with the new way of cooperating with the Spirit until Christians attain the likeness of Christ.
49. Regarding Freedom to choose, faith connotes a lack of proof or coercion, thereby making the chooser responsible for resisting God’s kind leading per R#3&4, which onus for evil is sensed by one’s conscience (R#8) or consciousness of sin (R#9). Even the reference to slavery in R#23 speaks of obedience being offered.
50. Regarding Will or volition, it is signified in R#32&38 by the heart, and the sinful will is described as hardened (cf. obstinate in Rom. 10:21). In R#39 Israel’s corporate will to sin is called transgression.
God wants us to repent (Having the feeling of guilt when we committed a sinful act) that it'll show that we're a living soul. The dead don't show any remorse when they commit a sin. That they are unable to show any mercy from the heart on others. that's how God knows who His children are because they'll have His same qualities.
Colossians 1:15
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
“For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.”
Luke 20:38
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
Hebrews 9:27 KJV
“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
John 11:25-26 KJV
“Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.”
John 11:14
“And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.”
John 11:43-44 KJV
without the life in him , we have no life in us but for the temporary inheritance of Adam that ends in the appointment of death . ( 120 years at the floods was our years of life reduced to ) No one’s already dead to god but we’re going to die if we don’t repent of our sin while we can while he is patient before the end
“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
Luke 13:3 KJV
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
2 Peter 3:9-13 KJV
Now let us consider other Scriptures sometimes cited in descriptions of the TULIP and MFW interpretations in light of Romans 1-11.
51. T – Mark 7:21-23 lists some evil thoughts in sinful hearts, but it does not teach that evil people cannot repent. Rather, Jesus states this truth in order to prick sinners’ hearts and lead them to repent of ignoring the commands of God in order to preserve the traditions of men (Mark 7:6-13, R#3&4).
52. U – The only Scripture cited as specifically supporting this point is R#21, and only if universal salvation is also accepted as being taught by the reference to all/many, but Romans 5:17 limits the many to those who receive God’s grace, and Romans 4:16 & 5:1 teach that grace is received through faith, making it the condition for reception (s/e).
53. L – In Matthew 20:28 Jesus said that his life is given as a ransom for many (stated also in Hebrews 9:28), but this does not preclude anyone who has faith being included, and Scriptures such as 1Timothy 2:3-4 indicate God’s desire for all to become “many” (John 3:16, Acts 2:21, 1John 2:2), indicating that although Christ’s death atoned for the sins of all humanity, only for those who accept Jesus as Messiah does it result in forgiveness (s/e, R#14&18).
54. I – Phil. 2:13 says that God works in believers to will and act according to His good purpose, but this does not mean that believers do not willingly cooperate (R#23).
55. P – John 10:27-29 states that Jesus gives his sheep eternal life, and no one can snatch them, which is stated by Paul in Romans 8:35-39 as being separated from the love of God in Christ. However, there are numerous Scriptures indicating that a believer may not persevere (including John 8:31, Matt. 10:22& Heb. 10:36), so although God gives endurance per Romans 15:4-5, it too must be received through continued faith (2Cor. 5:7) “from first to last” (Romans 1:17).
Thus, being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”. Also, in John 6:37 “never drive away” does not mean a person cannot go away, and in John 6:39 “I shall lose none” may refer to those who persevere or do not stray, who stand firm, who endure, who hold firmly, etc.
51. T – Mark 7:21-23 lists some evil thoughts in sinful hearts, but it does not teach that evil people cannot repent. Rather, Jesus states this truth in order to prick sinners’ hearts and lead them to repent of ignoring the commands of God in order to preserve the traditions of men (Mark 7:6-13, R#3&4).
52. U – The only Scripture cited as specifically supporting this point is R#21, and only if universal salvation is also accepted as being taught by the reference to all/many, but Romans 5:17 limits the many to those who receive God’s grace, and Romans 4:16 & 5:1 teach that grace is received through faith, making it the condition for reception (s/e).
53. L – In Matthew 20:28 Jesus said that his life is given as a ransom for many (stated also in Hebrews 9:28), but this does not preclude anyone who has faith being included, and Scriptures such as 1Timothy 2:3-4 indicate God’s desire for all to become “many” (John 3:16, Acts 2:21, 1John 2:2), indicating that although Christ’s death atoned for the sins of all humanity, only for those who accept Jesus as Messiah does it result in forgiveness (s/e, R#14&18).
54. I – Phil. 2:13 says that God works in believers to will and act according to His good purpose, but this does not mean that believers do not willingly cooperate (R#23).
55. P – John 10:27-29 states that Jesus gives his sheep eternal life, and no one can snatch them, which is stated by Paul in Romans 8:35-39 as being separated from the love of God in Christ. However, there are numerous Scriptures indicating that a believer may not persevere (including John 8:31, Matt. 10:22& Heb. 10:36), so although God gives endurance per Romans 15:4-5, it too must be received through continued faith (2Cor. 5:7) “from first to last” (Romans 1:17).
Thus, being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”. Also, in John 6:37 “never drive away” does not mean a person cannot go away, and in John 6:39 “I shall lose none” may refer to those who persevere or do not stray, who stand firm, who endure, who hold firmly, etc.
56. M – Gen. 2:17 begins the biblical revelation of God’s moral nature and requirement and is followed up by Gen. 6:5-6 revealing that God is grieved by sin, which truth Paul noted in Eph. 4:30. A main point of the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5-7) per Jesus in Matt. 5:20 is that souls should be righteous, and main point of the Sermon on Salvation (Rom. 1-11) per Paul in Rom. 3:21-22 is that righteousness is attained through faith in Jesus as Lord (cf. Acts 16:30-31).
57. F – Deut. 30:19 is one of the clearest statements of the condition of volition in Scripture, and Jesus lamented the sinful misuse of this divine gift in Matt. 23:37. Jesus commanded the correct application of volition in Matt. 7:7 (cf. Heb. 11:6). Paul indicates that God enables sinners to seek salvation in Rom. 2:4, where he says that God’s kindness toward sinners leads them toward repentance. In 1Tim. 2:3-4 Paul taught that God wants all souls to be saved, but he lamented that many resisted God’s will in Acts 28:26-27, like Jesus did in Matt. 13:14-15.
58. W – The short version of Paul’s Sermon on Salvation in Romans is found in Eph. 2:8-10, which states that God’s grace is received through faith, not works, implying that the condition of cooperating (called partnership in Phil. 1:4-5, cf. 2:12-13) with God both by professing Christ at conversion (from first/first day) and by producing the fruit of the Spirit during sanctification (to last/the day of Christ Jesus) is NOT meritorious or a reason to think salvation is earned (Rom. 1:17). However, choosing to disbelieve God or resist His kindness does manifest spiritual separation from His blessings and warrant eventual experiencing of divine wrath per Rom. 2:4-6 (cf. Matt. 23:37).
Over...
57. F – Deut. 30:19 is one of the clearest statements of the condition of volition in Scripture, and Jesus lamented the sinful misuse of this divine gift in Matt. 23:37. Jesus commanded the correct application of volition in Matt. 7:7 (cf. Heb. 11:6). Paul indicates that God enables sinners to seek salvation in Rom. 2:4, where he says that God’s kindness toward sinners leads them toward repentance. In 1Tim. 2:3-4 Paul taught that God wants all souls to be saved, but he lamented that many resisted God’s will in Acts 28:26-27, like Jesus did in Matt. 13:14-15.
58. W – The short version of Paul’s Sermon on Salvation in Romans is found in Eph. 2:8-10, which states that God’s grace is received through faith, not works, implying that the condition of cooperating (called partnership in Phil. 1:4-5, cf. 2:12-13) with God both by professing Christ at conversion (from first/first day) and by producing the fruit of the Spirit during sanctification (to last/the day of Christ Jesus) is NOT meritorious or a reason to think salvation is earned (Rom. 1:17). However, choosing to disbelieve God or resist His kindness does manifest spiritual separation from His blessings and warrant eventual experiencing of divine wrath per Rom. 2:4-6 (cf. Matt. 23:37).
Over...
Other Scriptures cited by tulipists include:
1. John 6:44a – “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.” This verse and John 6:65 should be harmonized with John 12:32, “When I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men to myself”, and with the passages teaching God’s omnilove, such as John 3:16 and 1Tim. 2:3-4.
2. Rom. 8:38-39 – “anything else” may refer to powers other than one’s own will.
3. Rom. 14:4&10, Paul says not to judge a servant of Jesus, who is able to make them stand before God’s judgment. The verb “make” may mean “provide a way”.
4. 1Cor 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58, Paul says that Jesus will keep the Corinthian believers firm to the end, warns them that if they think they are standing firm to be careful that they don’t fall and therefore, stand firm, letting nothing move them from the work of the Lord. These verses indicate that standing firm involves a believer cooperating with the way Jesus provides.
5. 2Cor 1:20-24, Paul says that God makes us stand firm in Christ and anointed our hearts with the HS as a seal and deposit; it is by faith that we stand firm. This indicates that the way God provides for standing firm is for believers to persevere in cooperating with the HS.
6. Eph. 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2Pet. 1:10f).
7. 1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”.
8. Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as Deut. 30:19 & Matt. 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.
9. Pro. 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.
1. John 6:44a – “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.” This verse and John 6:65 should be harmonized with John 12:32, “When I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men to myself”, and with the passages teaching God’s omnilove, such as John 3:16 and 1Tim. 2:3-4.
2. Rom. 8:38-39 – “anything else” may refer to powers other than one’s own will.
3. Rom. 14:4&10, Paul says not to judge a servant of Jesus, who is able to make them stand before God’s judgment. The verb “make” may mean “provide a way”.
4. 1Cor 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58, Paul says that Jesus will keep the Corinthian believers firm to the end, warns them that if they think they are standing firm to be careful that they don’t fall and therefore, stand firm, letting nothing move them from the work of the Lord. These verses indicate that standing firm involves a believer cooperating with the way Jesus provides.
5. 2Cor 1:20-24, Paul says that God makes us stand firm in Christ and anointed our hearts with the HS as a seal and deposit; it is by faith that we stand firm. This indicates that the way God provides for standing firm is for believers to persevere in cooperating with the HS.
6. Eph. 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2Pet. 1:10f).
7. 1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”.
8. Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as Deut. 30:19 & Matt. 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.
9. Pro. 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.
I hope this is the thread you mentioned for the topics of bad or mistranslations.
I'd like to discuss with you the Greek word "pisteuo" used 248 times in the NT. I would like to start the discussion with two Greek dictionaries definitions of the Greek word pisteuo.
I have the Strongs Expanded and here's the definition word for word.
"Pisteuo means not just to BELIEVE, but also to be persuaded of; and hence, to place confidence in, to trust, and signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence, hence it is translated "commit unto " , "commit to ones trust," "be committed unto".
Vines Expository dictionary of NT words which i also have is defined word for word is...
"The main elements in faith in its relation to the invisible God, as distinct from faith in man , are especially brought out in the use of this noun (pistis) and the corresponding verb, Pisteuo; they are 1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgement of Gods revelation of truth, e.g. 2 thess. 2:11,12; 2) a personal surrender to Him, John 1:12; 3) a conduct inspired by such surrender, 2Cor. 5:7. Prominence is given to one or the other of these elements according to the context. All this stands in contrast to BELIEF in its purely natural exercise, which consists of an opinion held in good faith without the necessary reference to its proof. The object of Abrahams faith was not Gods promise (that was the occasion of its exercise) his faith rested on God Himself. Rom.4:17, 20, 21."
Now here's the problems.
1) The English language has no corresponding verb to the noun pistis like the Greek does. And that causes all this carnage.
2) the words believe, believer, and believing were used to translate pisteuo.
3) when these at best bad tranlations were taken as the act of saving faith that results in receiving the Spirit of Christ, they became mistranslations.
4) the words believe, believer, and believing are corresponding verbs to the noun "belief," not the noun "faith".
I have alot more evidence, but I don't want to overwhelm.
The one Bible scholar ( that owns and teaches from the largest collection of biblical manuscripts in private hands behind the Vatican) and shines light on this said, " this knowledge of pisteuo should be a first day at Bible college lesson." But it's not, and now we have most of the church world being taught that if we TRULY BELIEVE in Gods word, we will receive the spirit of Christ. Thats just not true.
This should be a good start for this important topic.
I just saw your post. I participate on CC so much that I get so many notifications that I do not even try to keep up with them but instead scroll through threads rather randomly.
My knowledge of Greek quickly faded following my seminary days many years ago, but I will try to discuss pisteuo with you,
if you take the lead, because ignorance of it along with the words for rock does indeed cause misunderstanding at least of Matthew 16:16-19.
I have/use Young's, but I also have Vines, so go ahead.
I understand the distinction you see between faith and belief, and one of the first thoughts it sparks is James 2:19.
Another is Mark 9:24. In Romans 4, Abraham's faith and belief are treated as synonyms in the NIV.
These are my starting points.
Over...
That will make it easier if I lead, thanks for that.
This is how I would like to do this.
First establish an understanding between us of the exact definition of pisteuo.
My Vines which was new in 1980, defines pisteuo as
1) a firm conviction .
2) a personal surrender to Him.
3) a conduct (or life) inspired by such surrender.
Are these definitions acceptable?
Next, instead of starting with the hardest passages to interpret pisteuo, let's establish an understanding between us with the other more than 200 scriptures.
Is this acceptable?
I'll wait for your reply before i present the first passages.
Over.
GWH are my initials, but I have always loved God, so I am pleased to think of GW as meaning God's Word, too.
Because of my ignorance of Greek, perhaps others who are knowledgeable will join our discussion,
but until then the only thing I can do is utilize my gift of editing/connecting dots to harmonize various passages
containing pisteuo in order to arrive at the definition.
My initial opinion combining what you cited in Vines with GW is that pisteuo means what you said plus:
4) faith/belief (in Jesus as Messiah and Lord, Acts 16:16, etc.)
5) acceptance (of God's grace/gift of salvation, Eph. 2:8, etc.)
6) love (of God/Christ/the HS=GW, Matt. 22:37-40, etc.)
7) trust (that we will be saved from hell/resurrected to heaven, Rom. 8:22-25, etc.)
8) other? (Mark 9:24, Jam. 2:19, etc.)
Over...
Ok, i thought you had a more confident grasp on the Greek language, but the fact you were honest about that is the main reason you make a great candidate to have any discussion with really. Your honest, you reek of it, lol. I can sense honesty blindfolded. that's why i was hoping to have this discussion with you.
Now , finding others to add to our discussion with that some level of honesty, your going to have to help me out there. Do you have anyone in mind? I have a lot of members that have not met that bar, and I just put them on ignore to make it possible to have an honest discussion. Of coarse i keep an eye on some of them to see if that has changed, but for the most part, it doesn't.
I'm going to be dumping a lot on the table for you to absorb , do you have someone in mind to help with that? let me know that before we start, i know you have discussions with a few members i don't know yet.
Who do you have in mind?
No, I do not have anyone specific in mind, although Paul Thompson helped with the systematic study of Ephesians by providing the Greek translation.
Well lets take an easy passage and see how we do?
John 3:16,
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever "believes" in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I've put the word "believes" in quotes. That word "believes" is the Greek word "pisteuo".
Pisteuo is a verb, so an action word. The 3 definitions for pisteuo are 1) a firm conviction. 2) a personal surrender to Him. 3) a conduct (or life) inspired by such surrender. You said the words love, acceptance, trust, faith, are other definitions of pisteuo, but on their own are not sufficient. Take love for instance. If they were communicating love, there are 10 words in the Greek to communicate love. But they didn't choose any of them, they chose pisteuo and one of those 3 definitions. Take the word trust, the Greek has 5 words for trust . one of those words is pisteuo used just 3times out of the 248 times pisteuo is used in the NT. Lets look at acceptance, accually doesn't have a word in the Greek for acceptance. It has 5 for accepted, but none of them are pisteuo.
So to get exactly what the Greek writers were communicating, we need to choose one of the 3 definitions provided in the Vines. And pisteuo can't be defined or translated into the English with one English word. it has to be done with a sentence or phrase.
I'm comfortable using number two definition in John 3:16. Which would read, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever personally surrenders their lives to Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
What do you think?
I like to number my points for your easier reference;
1. No word on its own is sufficient, so we look for synonyms that have nuances helping to complete the definition.
For example, love (agape?) is commitment or conduct inspired by such surrender--commitment that is specified in Matt. 22:37-40 and Gal. 5:6, so it should be included in a complete understanding of faith/pisteuo.
2. I see you indicate that trust is a valid nuance, although infrequent.
3. Acceptance is implied in Scripture by the word "through" as in Eph. 2:8-9. God graces/gives; sinners accept through/via faith.
4. To get completely what was communicated, we should choose both-and=all definitions provided by Vines and those he overlooked.
5. Thus, we would have "God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever [personally surrenders their lives to him with firm conviction manifested by loving conduct inspired by him and trusts him for salvation] should not perish but have everlasting life."
This is what I think, anyway.
What surprised me is you gave pisteuo more definition. I'm so used to people defending that word "believe" with everything they got.
How do you feel about the difference between John 3:16 with the the mistranslated word "believe " , verses the correct definition ?
It's early in our discussion, but can you at this point see a false path potentially being formed?