Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[lrs68]

God has always proclaimed that He will have mercy only on those of His choosing. But, as I can see, you believe that He must be an equal opportunity Savior for all mankind. If He does not save all, then He is unfair in your eyes.
In that case, the entire Bible should be re-written because it is crystal clear that He chose Israel, and utterly destroyed other nations!

You and I have hashed out Romans 1 and Ephesians 4 and Acts 10 several times. And this is relating to your post I have quoted. I believe it is reasonable to say from those Verse references that God does indeed manifest Himself to all humans to say from Creation to Hearing the Gospel to whatever it may be I God is real.

Now, to go along with your post I would add that for some people God is vague about making Himself known and to others He makes sure without a doubt they know He is God.

And the difference is remarkable and very distinguishing.

 

[BillyBob]

Can a sinner just say “I don't like the sound of Hell and eternal punishment, I want to go to Heaven to avoid punishment”. He/she says that of their own free will, so according to Fwers that is all that is needed!. They need nothing more than their own free will to determine what must happen to them.

 

[sawdust]

You know there really is no pleasing you

You should not be trying to please me. There is only One who we should seek to please.

To be honest, I think it is your problem. You have an agreeable personality and try please everyone.

Nice is not a character trait (fruit of the Spirit) and being nice to everyone is not Christianity.

We can agree on this conversation going nowhere though.

grace and peace.

 

[sawdust]

God has always proclaimed that He will have mercy only on those of His choosing. But, as I can see, you believe that He must be an equal opportunity Savior for all mankind. If He does not save all, then He is unfair in your eyes.
In that case, the entire Bible should be re-written because it is crystal clear that He chose Israel, and utterly destroyed other nations!

Have you ever read the context of that Romans saying? Has nothing to do with how God saves but how God will reveal Himself to His people. God decides who will receive His compassion and mercy and how He will extend it to His people. Nothing to do with unbelievers in need of salvation.

I don't think God is unfair because He doesn't save all, I know why He doesn't save all. I think you are unfair because the god of your imagining, knowing full well man is hopeless and cannot love Him without intervention, deliberately chooses not to intervene and then blames them for their hopelessness.

 

[sawdust]

Can a sinner just say “I don't like the sound of Hell and eternal punishment, I want to go to Heaven to avoid punishment”. He/she says that of their own free will, so according to Fwers that is all that is needed!. They need nothing more than their own free will to determine what must happen to them.

Again you err. It is God who has decided what to do with believers. Of course a sinner can say that and if it were not for the fidelity of God and the keeping of His own word to save whosoever believes, that same sinner would still see hell no matter what they wanted.

Being able to say something and being able to do something is not the same thing.

 

[cv5]

God has always proclaimed that He will have mercy only on those of His choosing. But, as I can see, you believe that He must be an equal opportunity Savior for all mankind. If He does not save all, then He is unfair in your eyes.
In that case, the entire Bible should be re-written because it is crystal clear that He chose Israel, and utterly destroyed other nations!

Get a grip on reality.
Israel was God's messenger raised up for the purpose of EVANGALIZING the world and proclaiming His way of SALVATION.

A task that they will be RECOMMISIONED to do during the millennial reign.

 

[bytheblood]

Read the salutation of the book - chapter 1 verses 1 -4. He is addressing the elect brethren not everyone, so the us-ward in 3:9, was
intended for them and not to apply to everyone. Peter was saying in 3:9, that God would not allow any of His elect to perish.
Here:

[2Pe 1:1-2, 4 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, ...
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

I think you meant Eze 18:32 not 10:32. Anyway, that verse was under the Old Covenant - it was a performance-based covenant - those under it had to satisfy its requirements and stipulations by/with their choices and actions alone, hence the "turn yourselves".
Not so with the New Covenant. Under it, God Himself assumed complete responsibility for satisfying all of its demands and stipulations. Therefore, those He places under the NC - those He chose from before the foundation of the world - do not/cannot satisfy any part of it except to be its beneficiaries and recipients.

[Eze 18:32 KJV] 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye.

What is repentance but YOU turning from your life to the life God has ordained for you. You have to make the turn, God doesn't make it for you. " And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." Joshua 24:15. We ALL, no matter under what covenant, are called to turn from darkness to light. If God has no pleasure in ANY mans death, than to be just, which He is, ALL men must have a chance for life everlasting. Question, why would Jesus die for the sins of the WHOLE world if He knew that the WHOLE world has no chance of salvation? Why is it not written that He died just for the elects sake? The elect are those who choose His call.

 

[rogerg]

What is repentance but YOU turning from your life to the life God has ordained for you. You have to make the turn, God doesn't make it for you.

No. God alone gives true repentance to those He has chosen unto salvation. The repentance is from a trust in our works for our justification before God unto a trust in Jesus alone as Savior

[Rom 2:4 KJV] 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

[Heb 6:1 KJV] 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

 

[cv5]

God has always proclaimed that He will have mercy only on those of His choosing. But, as I can see, you believe that He must be an equal opportunity Savior for all mankind. If He does not save all, then He is unfair in your eyes.
In that case, the entire Bible should be re-written because it is crystal clear that He chose Israel, and utterly destroyed other nations!

No @BillyBob , God DID NOT raise up Irael to save them and literally destroy everyone else.

 

[cv5]

Again you err. It is God who has decided what to do with believers. Of course a sinner can say that and if it were not for the fidelity of God and the keeping of His own word to save whosoever believes, that same sinner would still see hell no matter what they wanted.

Being able to say something and being able to do something is not the same thing.

The fact of God faithfully fulfilling the terms and obligations of His Own Covenant escapes @BillyBob
Frankly I am sick and tired of dealing with Calvinists living in a dreamscape populated by figments of their own vain imagination.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I have to admit that my post saying that God creates some for destruction was not correct. He has no need to do that!

not only does He not have a "need to do that!" ... He does not "create some for destruction".

Even satan and his minions were not "created" in their current fallen state.

However, He creates them knowing that He will not provide them with the grace needed for salvation.

huh? ... what are you talking about? ... when you share the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ with an unbeliever, that is God providing grace to the unbeliever through His working within you.

Those who believe the gospel receive the promise.
Those who reject receive the consequence.

Therefore, they will self destruct.

yes ... self destruct ... but not because God withheld "grace needed for salvation".

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

The verse says those who are humble are given more grace ... not that those who are proud receive no grace.

.

 

[rogerg]

Question, why would Jesus die for the sins of the WHOLE world if He knew that the WHOLE world has no chance of salvation? Why is it not written that He died just for the elects sake? The elect are those who choose His call.

He didn't die for the sins of the whole world; He died only for those He had chosen to salvation.

[2Th 2:13 KJV] 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

[2Ti 1:9-10 KJV]
9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Well, you certainly got some things correct, we were once dead in trespass and sin! And, the call, does in fact, go out for all to hear. Creation itself proclaims that we have a creator and leaves all men without excuse.
However, men are unable to hear/believe/trust in God without being made new. So much for volition! They cannot turn because they are without hope.

appears you're saying a person must be born again in order to believe Scripture by which he or she is born again.

How many times must a person be born again before he or she is really, really, really, truly, scouts honor, born again?

But the good news is that God will show mercy to some. Those who are shown mercy are His elect.

God will show mercy to whom He will show mercy.

For He says:
“Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use”? That decision was made long ago, even before we were born.

God has determined that those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness will be used for a specific purpose and those who do suppress the truth in unrighteousness will be used for another specific purpose.

This is taught in the story of Jacob and Esau, God favored Jacob just as He favored Israel over other nations.

what is taught in reading Jacob and Esau is very enlightening. Esau made his choice, he despised his birthright and sold it to Jacob for a pot of stew, then cried when he could not dissuade Isaac from undoing the blessing bestowed upon Jacob.

However, Isaac did bless Jacob before he passed - Gen 27:39-40.

.

 

[bytheblood]

No. God alone gives true repentance to those He has chosen unto salvation. The repentance is from a trust in our works for our justification before God unto a trust in Jesus alone as Savior

[Rom 2:4 KJV] 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

[Heb 6:1 KJV] 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

School me please, where in scripture does it say God gives us true repentance? Or does He give us the draw and OPPORTUNITY to repent.

He didn't die for the sins of the whole world; He died only for those He had chosen to salvation.

[2Th 2:13 KJV] 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

[2Ti 1:9-10 KJV]
9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

JESUS DIDN'T DIE FOR SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD??? What Bible are YOU reading? My Bible states " My little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And He is the propitiation for our( those who have received Him) sins: AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD." 1 John 2: 1-2. I suggest you get a real Bible if yours doesn't have that scripture in it.

 

[rogerg]

School me please, where in scripture does it say God gives us true repentance? Or does He give us the draw and OPPORTUNITY to repent.

I don't understand your question. Did you see the verses I posted regarding repentance? Many people superficially and intellectually "repent", but true, lasting, repentance is only given to someone by God.

ESUS DIDN'T DIE FOR SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD??? What Bible are YOU reading? My Bible states " My little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And He is the propitiation for our( those who have received Him) sins: AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD." 1 John 2: 1-2. I suggest you get a real Bible if yours doesn't have that scripture in it.

The world is the world to come, not this current world. Jesus's kingdom is not of this world. The sins will have been forgiven for everyone chosen for that world.
BTW, by the "my little children", he is addressing only the elect, saints, not everyone.

Look, I have better things to do than argue with you about this, so we're done.

 

[bytheblood]

School me please, where in scripture does it say God gives us true repentance? Or does He give us the draw and OPPORTUNITY to repent.

JESUS DIDN'T DIE FOR SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD??? What Bible are YOU reading? My Bible states " My little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And He is the propitiation for our( those who have received Him) sins: AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD." 1 John 2: 1-2. I suggest you get a real Bible if yours doesn't have that scripture in it.

" And the servant of the Lord must not strive: but be gentle unto all men, apt to TEACH, patient, In meekness INSTRUCTING those that oppose themselves: if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledgement of the truth." Here the " servant " of the Lord teaches and instructs those opposing themselves in the goodness of the Lord, which leads them to repentance, which God gives acceptance. But they still had to repent, not God.

 

[bytheblood]

I don't understand your question. Did you see the verses I posted regarding repentance? Many people superficially and intellectually "repent", but true, lasting, repentance is only given to someone by God.



The world is the world to come, not this current world. Jesus's kingdom is not of this world. The sins will have been forgiven for everyone chosen for that world.
BTW, by the "my little children", he is addressing only the elect, saints, not everyone.

Look, I have better things to do than argue with you about this, so we're done.

I'd quit too. BTW, " And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, The kingdom cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke17: 20-21. I believe who Jesus was talking to were on earth. The kingdom is within me, how about you?

 

[Jordon]

You should not be trying to please me. There is only One who we should seek to please.

To be honest, I think it is your problem. You have an agreeable personality and try please everyone.

Nice is not a character trait (fruit of the Spirit) and being nice to everyone is not Christianity.

We can agree on this conversation going nowhere though.

grace and peace.

Well if there's way to set boundaries this is it. Well done

You should not be trying to please me. There is only One who we should seek to please.

To be honest, I think it is your problem. You have an agreeable personality and try please everyone.

Nice is not a character trait (fruit of the Spirit) and being nice to everyone is not Christianity.

We can agree on this conversation going nowhere though.

grace and peace.

well it's not his way to be a tough nut like you, it's more his way to be gentle from how I'm seeing his manners in his posts, so perhaps that's the way way God trained his nature, and only God can change his nature, not you

 

[BillyBob]

Being able to say something and being able to do something is not the same thing.

See, we can agree on some things!

 

[BillyBob]

God will show mercy to whom He will show mercy.

Agree! We are making progress. . . .