Apologetics: witnessing to atheists

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No, but I must point out that when I said I understood you disagree with modalism so I did NOT understand why you did not agree with me, that should have conveyed my "no I do not".

So, again I ask, "Do you agree with the Bible-based explanation of the Triunity that I shared?
If not, the why not?
Thanks.

I told you I believe that the different persons of the Trinity do appear to take on different roles, but this is not Modalism.
I have no idea what you are saying beyond this. I am not signing your confession or admission to your understanding. I am telling you what I believe. Any further pushback by you on this is not going to go anywhere. I told you what I believe.

I am happy that you do not believe in Modalism.




....
 
Glad you agree that proper interpretation should depend primarily on Scripture,
but I do not understand the distinction between history and tradition that you seem to make,
so please clarify/specify.

History tells us that Rome won the 1st Jewish War. Scripture tells us that at least as recently as 58 CE, Christians were involved with the Jerusalem temple for worship. Tradition tells us that the fall of the temple in 70 did not seriously bother Christians. When between 58 and 70 did Christians stop associating with the temple?

According to Acts and implied in Paul's letter, Paul did his missionary work in Anatolia, Greece and Italy. Some traditions say he also made it to Spain. History tells us that Anatolia killed 80-100,000 Latins in a single night in 88 BCE and Greece objected because they were not advised it was going to happen, so they had to throw out somewhat prepared Romans in 88 BCE. Later in the early 60's BCE the same group in Anatolia again rebelled, this time with allies in Spain and Italy (Spartacus who started with less than 100 and ended up with 1-200,000 followers). Tradition says this is irrelevant, but is it?

Did you know that the delay in Herod's taking control of Jerusalem dated back to a stunning Roman defeat in 53 BCE, or that he reportedly attacked a fellow client king circa 5-4 BCE, the same time frame in which he lost his "friend of Rome status"? Again, tradition says this is not important.

Constantine was not the first emperor to legitimize Christianity just the first to summon a council, but he also killed another who supported Christianity. Yet the still clearly pagan Constantine was "equal to the Apostles" according to the bishops, that even after accepting this title Constantine openly worshipped Helios is clearly "not relevant" as it counters tradition.

Do see any problems in light of these points with tradition and recorded history? Perhaps post-70 Christianity wanting to disavow any potential connection to any anti-Roman sentiments, such as Ephesians 6:11-17 fitting current events in eastern Anatolia between 55-57 CE, which would only a "Prison Epistle" if Paul was being charged with TREASON, nope, cannot be, Christians were always pro-Rome and never needed to edit any gospels (Mark and John) so that they show signs of multiple endings.
 
I told you I believe that the different persons of the Trinity do appear to take on different roles, but this is not Modalism.
I have no idea what you are saying beyond this. I am not signing your confession or admission to your understanding. I am telling you what I believe. Any further pushback by you on this is not going to go anywhere. I told you what I believe.

I am happy that you do not believe in Modalism.
....

And I agreed, so I have no idea why you are so reluctant to agree that the Scriptures I shared support our understanding of the Triunity.
It seems that only a contrary nature would refuse to be agreeable but instead choose to call our confession your admission.
IOW, it is YOU who pushes back against the goads; I am pulling for spiritual unity!
 
History tells us that Rome won the 1st Jewish War. Scripture tells us that at least as recently as 58 CE, Christians were involved with the Jerusalem temple for worship. Tradition tells us that the fall of the temple in 70 did not seriously bother Christians. When between 58 and 70 did Christians stop associating with the temple?

According to Acts and implied in Paul's letter, Paul did his missionary work in Anatolia, Greece and Italy. Some traditions say he also made it to Spain. History tells us that Anatolia killed 80-100,000 Latins in a single night in 88 BCE and Greece objected because they were not advised it was going to happen, so they had to throw out somewhat prepared Romans in 88 BCE. Later in the early 60's BCE the same group in Anatolia again rebelled, this time with allies in Spain and Italy (Spartacus who started with less than 100 and ended up with 1-200,000 followers). Tradition says this is irrelevant, but is it?

Did you know that the delay in Herod's taking control of Jerusalem dated back to a stunning Roman defeat in 53 BCE, or that he reportedly attacked a fellow client king circa 5-4 BCE, the same time frame in which he lost his "friend of Rome status"? Again, tradition says this is not important.

Constantine was not the first emperor to legitimize Christianity just the first to summon a council, but he also killed another who supported Christianity. Yet the still clearly pagan Constantine was "equal to the Apostles" according to the bishops, that even after accepting this title Constantine openly worshipped Helios is clearly "not relevant" as it counters tradition.

Do see any problems in light of these points with tradition and recorded history? Perhaps post-70 Christianity wanting to disavow any potential connection to any anti-Roman sentiments, such as Ephesians 6:11-17 fitting current events in eastern Anatolia between 55-57 CE, which would only a "Prison Epistle" if Paul was being charged with TREASON, nope, cannot be, Christians were always pro-Rome and never needed to edit any gospels (Mark and John) so that they show signs of multiple endings.

No, I do not see any problems with understanding NT doctrine in light of the points you mentioned.
Again, I do not see that the proper interpretation of Scripture is affected by the history and tradition you cite.
What problem do you see?
 
No, I do not see any problems with understanding NT doctrine in light of the points you mentioned.
Again, I do not see that the proper interpretation of Scripture is affected by the history and tradition you cite.
What problem do you see?
Rewriter has said similar stuff to me, such as this “in the 1st century CE, the Jewish High Priest was appointed by the Imperial Legate of Syria, thus deriving his authority from that of the Imperial Legate. The Imperial Legate derived his authority from the emperor. In the 30's of the 1st century the Tiberius and his successor Gaius had zero authority in the city of Damascus. Thus, neither the Imperial Legate nor the Jewish High Priest had any authority. Acts records Paul going to the Jewish High Priest to gain authority to detain Christians in Damascus. Either Paul was ignorant, which does not fit with his claim of having studied under Gamaliel, or Luke invented this episode. There is a conflict in the biblical evidence, so how does one deal with this simple problem, Paul and Luke cannot both be correct in what they recorded in the scriptures.” [End of Quote]
 
No, I do not see any problems with understanding NT doctrine in light of the points you mentioned.
Again, I do not see that the proper interpretation of Scripture is affected by the history and tradition you cite.
What problem do you see?

I see a major cumulative effect. Herod's coins, his obvious actions and his "irrelevant" plausible actions all point to a Jewish king who was popular with his people and one who would have welcomed a messiah. The actions of Antipas, his obvious actions, his coinage and the implausible account of Antipas and Vitellius from Josephus all point to a ruler who would support Jesus. The actions of Agrippa I suggest a ruler who would have supported a messianic movement. The statements of Paul in his letters strongly imply that he went from Anatolia to Rome, never returning to Jerusalem to get in trouble with the Jews over the temple.

Now for a question to you, one I asked earlier but still have not gotten an answer to. When between 58 CE and 70 CE did the Christians lose interest in the Jerusalem temple, and please cite the scriptural evidence. The scriptural evidence I can see says that the Jerusalem temple was important, yet tradition says it was not and its loss did not affect Christians.
 
No, I do not see any problems with understanding NT doctrine in light of the points you mentioned.
Again, I do not see that the proper interpretation of Scripture is affected by the history and tradition you cite.
What problem do you see?

I might add, while we both accept scripture we differ after that. You accept scripture and human tradition, I accept scripture, archeological evidence and well-accepted history, even when it CONTRADICTS tradition, especially when it indicates that tradition has something to conceal, such as the Romans had excellent reason to persecute Christians.
 
I see a major cumulative effect. Herod's coins, his obvious actions and his "irrelevant" plausible actions all point to a Jewish king who was popular with his people and one who would have welcomed a messiah. The actions of Antipas, his obvious actions, his coinage and the implausible account of Antipas and Vitellius from Josephus all point to a ruler who would support Jesus. The actions of Agrippa I suggest a ruler who would have supported a messianic movement. The statements of Paul in his letters strongly imply that he went from Anatolia to Rome, never returning to Jerusalem to get in trouble with the Jews over the temple.

Now for a question to you, one I asked earlier but still have not gotten an answer to. When between 58 CE and 70 CE did the Christians lose interest in the Jerusalem temple, and please cite the scriptural evidence. The scriptural evidence I can see says that the Jerusalem temple was important, yet tradition says it was not and its loss did not affect Christians.

Well, using cumulative effect as the basis for interpreting GW seems too RC, but regarding your question:
I would say it occurred in Acts 5, when the Sadducees persecuted the apostles, culminating with the stoning of Stephen in Acts 6-7,
after which "a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem" per Acts 8:1.
I accept human tradition that accords with and does not contradict NT doctrine.
 
And I agreed, so I have no idea why you are so reluctant to agree that the Scriptures I shared support our understanding of the Triunity.
It seems that only a contrary nature would refuse to be agreeable but instead choose to call our confession your admission.
IOW, it is YOU who pushes back against the goads; I am pulling for spiritual unity!

Sorry. You’re not being fair or rational. You posted a ton of verses for me read and you want me to sign on to your interpretation of them in how you worded it, when I really do not know where you stand on all of them in light of what you are trying to say.

I told you what I believe. Did what I say disagree with the verses you posted? Yes or no? If yes, explain.

What exactly are you trying to say that is different than what I stated on the Trinity?




.
 
And I agreed, so I have no idea why you are so reluctant to agree that the Scriptures I shared support our understanding of the Triunity.
It seems that only a contrary nature would refuse to be agreeable but instead choose to call our confession your admission.
IOW, it is YOU who pushes back against the goads; I am pulling for spiritual unity!

Words can have shades of meaning and or semantic range. You want me to agree with something that you written that is very lengthy. The better approach would be to ask a short yes or no question without me having to agree to a bunch of your own slanted wording with Scripture. I told you what I believe as an answer without signing on to your confession on your interpretation of Scripture. If you want to take one verse at a time, okay. But you need to slow down and tell me what I missed that has gotten you flustered.


….
 
Well, using cumulative effect as the basis for interpreting GW seems too RC, but regarding your question:
I would say it occurred in Acts 5, when the Sadducees persecuted the apostles, culminating with the stoning of Stephen in Acts 6-7,
after which "a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem" per Acts 8:1.
I accept human tradition that accords with and does not contradict NT doctrine.

Well, I also look at cumulative effect. Luke, the presumptive author of Acts, describes something that historically could not have occurred. In a court case that would cast great doubt on his entire testimony. Yet you accept it. The high priest could not have given Saul/Paul any authority to use in Damascus, strike one. Supposedly the action against Stephen occurred without a Roman official in Jerusalem, but guess what, there was a Roman detachment permanently stationed there. So, the lack of Roman oversight could not have occurred, strike two. Finally, the coinage of Antipas is hard evidence, and that hard evidence contradicts the narrative in Luke/Acts also, strike three. But little historical and archeological details like that do not matter because scripture is true, am I correct? But if we disregard archeological evidence, a lot of the claimed support for Acts reliability also vanishes so I guess that the only admissible evidence for you is evidence that confirms your preexisting assumption that tradition is correct. In court such an approach loses.

By the way, if Paul had been arrested in Anatolia, which he all but openly declares occurred, he would not have been released to return to Jerusalem. Rather sometime in 58, likely in the first half of the year, he would have been sent to Rome under guard. And again, looking at historical evidence as well as Clement of Rome's comments, he was likely sent to Spain in exile. He would then have been released in 68, when there is evidence that false narratives about the Jewish rebellion were being formed.
 
Sorry. You’re not being fair or rational. You posted a ton of verses for me read and you want me to sign on to your interpretation of them in how you worded it, when I really do not know where you stand on all of them in light of what you are trying to say.

I told you what I believe. Did what I say disagree with the verses you posted? Yes or no? If yes, explain.

What exactly are you trying to say that is different than what I stated on the Trinity?
.

Not sure why you think I am being unfair or irrational, but I want us to agree because I respect your opinion.
I am saying that IMO we do agree re the Triunity, even though I do not know where you stand on everything,
whereas you appear reluctant to agree--even so far, before reading all of the verses. Feel free to take them
one at a time; I did not intend to rush you.
TTYL
 
It is too bad those councils did not share my insight regarding the Triunity:

Your Claim:


"They may be distinguished by role: God the Father as creator or initiator (Gen. 1:1), God the Son as Messiah or mediator (1Tim. 2:5), and God the Spirit as indweller (Rom. 5:5)." ~ Quote by GWH.

In short, you are saying, "The Father initiates, the Son mediates, the Spirit indwells."

To address your statement that the Father initiates, here is:


My reply:

Scripture shows that while the Father is often presented as the One who initiates, this is not an absolute pattern. Jesus plainly states that the Son quickeneth whom he will” (John 5:21), just as the Father raises the dead. This does not place the Son in opposition to the Father’s will, but rather reveals the Son’s own divine will operating in perfect unity with the Father.​
Likewise, in the garden, Jesus truly expresses His human will when He prays, “Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me” (Luke 22:42). This was not ignorance of the plan nor resistance to it, but the genuine expression of the Son’s humanity. Yet in the same prayer He immediately submits that will, saying, “nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”​
The passage shows that Jesus did not act independently or in conflict with the Father, but neither was He a passive instrument. He spoke, prayed, and willed as the Son, while fully and freely yielding that will to the Father. Scripture therefore presents real personal communion between the Father and the Son, not a unilateral action on one side alone.​
You basically said that the Spirit indwells, which I am assuming you mean believers. But you said that the Son mediates, and the Father initiates implying that they do not dwell in believers.

My reply:

While Scripture does distinguish the roles of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, it does not limit indwelling to the Spirit alone. The Holy Ghost does indeed dwell in believers (Romans 8:11; 1 Corinthians 6:19), but Jesus explicitly taught that both the Father and the Son also make their abode in the believer.
In John 14:23, Jesus said, “If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” This shows that indwelling is not exclusive to the Spirit, but a shared presence of the Father and the Son with the believer.
Likewise, eternal life itself is defined in terms of having the Son, not merely His benefits or influence. “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life” (1 John 5:12). To abide in Christ is therefore essential to possessing life.
Jesus further prayed in John 17:21, “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.” This prayer presents a real, relational union in which believers participate in the fellowship of the Father and the Son, without confusion of persons.
Other passages affirm this same truth. “Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Colossians 1:27), and “I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me” (Galatians 2:20). Even Romans 8:10 states, “If Christ be in you…”, placing Christ’s indwelling alongside that of the Spirit rather than in competition with it.
Therefore, while the Holy Ghost is the divine agent who seals and administers this union, Scripture teaches that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all truly present with and in the believer. Any framework that assigns indwelling solely to the Spirit unintentionally narrows the rich biblical teaching of abiding in Christ and communion with the Father.

Your Claim:


“We can denote these distinctions per Scripture by the use of three prepositions: God the Father is over all creation (Eph. 4:6), God the Son is Immanuel or with humanity (Matt. 1:23), and the Holy Spirit is within all believers (Eph. 1:13).” ~ Quote by GWH

In short, you are saying, the Father is over all, Son is with us, Spirit is in us.

To address your claim that the Father is over all, here is:


My reply:

The Father is over all, but the Father also indwells believers, too. But by saying the Spirit is in us, and not qualifying that the Father can be as well, implies He does not indwell believers. I have already demonstrated this with Scripture above. So your implied fuller statement here would be incorrect. It is not just the Spirit that is in us, but the Father, too.

You said that the Son is with us. Here is:


My reply:

This again is false in context to your statement that the Spirit is in us. The Son is also very much capable of indwelling believers. In fact, it is essential that He does indwell believers or otherwise they do not even have eternal life, as I mentioned above in my above verses.

Your claim:


“in a sense God may be viewed as a “Quadity”. … God as Creation is throughout physical reality (called “panentheism”). However, since this mode of revelation is impersonal, it has rightly been de-emphasized by most Christian denominations lest it lead to pantheism." ~ Quote by GWH.

My reply:

The idea that creation itself is somehow a fourth mode of God (sometimes called a "Quadity") or that God exists as creation through panentheism contradicts what the Holy Scriptures plainly teach. While the Bible absolutely affirms that creation displays God's power and glory, it consistently maintains a clear line between the Creator and everything He created. Romans 1:20 tells us that the invisible things of God are "understood by the things that are made," not that God is the same as what is made.
Scripture repeatedly denies that God is confined to, embodied in, or contained within physical structures or material reality. Acts 7:48 and Acts 17:24 plainly state that "the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands." This isn't just downplaying temple worship. It's denying the idea that God's being resides in constructed or physical spaces. Solomon confirms this in 1 Kings 8:27 and 2 Chronicles 6:18, declaring that "the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee." If even the highest created realms can't contain God, then creation itself can't possibly be considered a mode or extension of His being.
God's Word also explicitly states that God was not present within certain natural manifestations, which directly refutes panentheistic assumptions. In 1 Kings 19:11–12, Elijah witnesses powerful natural events (wind, earthquake, fire), yet the text repeatedly emphasizes that "the LORD was not in" them. These clear negations make it impossible to argue that God is somehow ontologically present as physical reality. God may work through creation, but He isn't reducible to it.
The Scriptures further clarify that God's relationship to creation is one of rule and authority, not embodiment. Isaiah 66:1 declares, "The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool." A throne and footstool are instruments of dominion. They're not parts of your being. This imagery affirms transcendence while preserving God's nearness. Similarly, Jeremiah 23:23–24 states that God fills heaven and earth, yet this filling refers to His sovereign presence and authority, not to an absorption of creation into His essence.
Taken together, God's Word leaves no room for panentheism, a divine "Quadity," or the idea of "God as Creation." These concepts collapse the biblical distinction between Creator and creature, a distinction the Holy Scriptures not only preserve but repeatedly emphasize. Creation testifies of God's power and glory, but God Himself remains eternal, uncontained, uncreated, and wholly distinct from all that He has made.

Please understand that I am not here to endlessly debate you, but merely to tell you what I believe Scripture actually says. I say this because I know you have ignored my points with Scripture before. My intention is not to get into any kind of forever back and forth on this particular topic, but merely correct with Scripture.

....


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When the Bible uses masculine words for God, it should be understood that only God the Son is human and had a sexual orientation while on earth (Heb. 2:14-18). Gen 1:26-27 states that both male and female were created in God’s image, referring not to androgyny but to personality, and Jesus said (in Matt. 22:30 & 19:11-12) that there is no marriage and thus no need for sexuality in heaven.

First, the verse stating that resurrected believers “neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven” (Matthew 22:30 KJV) does not teach that angels or resurrected humans are genderless. The passage addresses marriage, not ontology or the erasure of male and female identity. While it could be argued that the absence of marriage may imply a non-sexual order, this conclusion is not ironclad. Scripture records that angels “left their first estate” and took human wives in Genesis 6, producing the Nephilim or giants, showing that angels were capable of sexual relations when acting outside their appointed order. Furthermore, while I am not negating the possibility that angels may be genderless in heaven, there is no denying that throughout Scripture they consistently appear in masculine form, are identified as men, bear masculine names, and are never presented in a way that leaves observers uncertain whether they are male or female.

Second, I believe the Scriptures teach that God created Adam and his male line in God's image and not women.

God Created Only Adam and
His Male Lineage in His Image, Not Women

(For it is men who are appointed to rule and exercise dominion upon the earth, not women):

Genesis 1:26–27 (KJV)

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”

My Stated Biblical Position:

I believe the Bible teaches that only Adam and his male offspring are made in the image of God for authority and dominion, not women. Scripture consistently places rule, headship, and dominion with men, never assigning dominion to women. This view is widely rejected in today’s culture, but it arises from a plain reading of Scripture.

My Biblical Defense:

In Genesis 1:26–27, the order and grammar of the passage are significant. God first declares His intent to make man (אָדָם, adam) in His image and likeness. While the Hebrew word adam can refer either to an individual man or to mankind collectively, context determines usage.

Verse 27 clarifies the matter:

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him…”

The Hebrew word translated “him” is אֹתוֹ (oto), which is singular and masculine. This indicates that the image-bearing act is being applied specifically to the man (singular). Only afterward does the text add:

“male and female created he them.”

This final clause introduces sexual distinction, but it does not restate or reassign the image of God to both sexes. The text never says, “in the image of God created he them.” The image is grammatically and contextually tied to the singular “him,” not to the later plural “them.”

The dominion language in verse 26 (“let them have dominion”) is best understood as referring to Adam and his male lineage, through whom authority and rule would be exercised. Throughout Scripture, dominion, rule, headship, and governance are consistently assigned to men, not women.

This order is confirmed elsewhere in Scripture. Paul states plainly:

“For a man indeed is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.”
(1 Corinthians 11:7 KJV)

This is a decisive statement. Paul does not say that both man and woman are the image of God. Instead, he draws a contrast: man is the image and glory of God, while the woman is the glory of the man. This aligns directly with the structure of Genesis 1 and confirms that image-bearing, as it relates to authority and representation, belongs to the man.

Paul reinforces this order elsewhere:

“But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man… For Adam was first formed, then Eve.”
(1 Timothy 2:12–13 KJV)

“For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church.”
(Ephesians 5:23 KJV)

“Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.”
(Ephesians 5:22 KJV)

Scripture consistently places authority, rule, and headship with men. God establishes kings, not queens, to rule His people. He reveals Himself as Father and Son, never as mother or daughter. When God appears, He does so in masculine form or masculine titles. The pattern is consistent from Genesis to Revelation.

Modern Bible translations, such as the NIV, obscure these distinctions by rendering adam as “mankind” and flattening the grammatical and theological structure of the text. This shift moves the passage away from its original emphasis on male headship and authority and aligns it instead with modern cultural assumptions.


Historical Witnesses Supporting This Reading:

The following historical figures articulated views that align with the position that the man alone is described as the image of God, while the woman is defined in relation to the man and his authority.

Augustine of Hippo (354–430)
On the Trinity, Book XII, Chapter 7

“When she is referred separately to her quality of help-meet, which regards the woman herself alone, then she is not the image of God; but as regards the man alone, he is the image of God as fully and completely as when the woman too is joined with him in one.”

Gratian (12th century)
Decretum Gratiani, Causa 33, Question 5

“Woman is not made in the image of God; therefore she must cover her head, because man alone is the image and glory of God.”

John Chrysostom (c. 347–407)
Homily 26 on 1 Corinthians

“The man is not compelled to cover his head, since he is the image of God; but the woman is subjected, and bears the mark of subjection.”

Ambrosiaster (4th century Latin commentator)
“Man is the image of God, because he is the head; but woman is the glory of man and therefore must be subject.”


Clarifying Statement on Authority:

This conclusion was not reached by appealing to church tradition, but by reading Scripture plainly and allowing it to interpret itself. Genesis 1 and 1 Corinthians 11:7 provide the framework for this understanding. The historical quotations included here are not the source of the doctrine, but evidence that others, at various points in history, recognized the same biblical distinction.




.....
 
Your Claim:
"They may be distinguished by role: God the Father as creator or initiator (Gen. 1:1), God the Son as Messiah or mediator (1Tim. 2:5),
God the Spirit as indweller (Rom. 5:5)."


......
The passage shows that Jesus did not act independently or in conflict with the Father, but neither was He a passive instrument. He spoke, prayed, and willed as the Son, while fully and freely yielding that will to the Father. Scripture therefore presents real personal communion between the Father and the Son, not a unilateral action on one side alone.​
You basically said that the Spirit indwells, which I am assuming you mean believers. But you said that the Son mediates, and the Father initiates implying that they do not dwell in believers.
My reply:
While Scripture does distinguish the roles of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, it does not limit indwelling to the Spirit alone. The Holy Ghost does indeed dwell in believers (Romans 8:11; 1 Corinthians 6:19), but Jesus explicitly taught that both the Father and the Son also make their abode in the believer.

In John 14:23, Jesus said, “If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” This shows that indwelling is not exclusive to the Spirit, but a shared presence of the Father and the Son with the believer.
......​
Therefore, while the Holy Ghost is the divine agent who seals and administers this union, Scripture teaches that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all truly present with and in the believer. Any framework that assigns indwelling solely to the Spirit unintentionally narrows the rich biblical teaching of abiding in Christ and communion with the Father.
Your Claim:
“We can denote these distinctions per Scripture by the use of three prepositions: God the Father is over all creation (Eph. 4:6), God the Son is Immanuel or with humanity (Matt. 1:23), and the Holy Spirit is within all believers (Eph. 1:13).” ~ Quote by GWH


In short, you are saying, the Father is over all, Son is with us, Spirit is in us.

To address your claim that the Father is over all, here is:

My reply:
The Father is over all, but the Father also indwells believers, too. But by saying the Spirit is in us, and not qualifying that the Father can be as well, implies He does not indwell believers. I have already demonstrated this with Scripture above. So your implied fuller statement here would be incorrect. It is not just the Spirit that is in us, but the Father, too.


You said that the Son is with us. Here is:
My reply:
This again is false in context to your statement that the Spirit is in us. The Son is also very much capable of indwelling believers. In fact, it is essential that He does indwell believers or otherwise they do not even have eternal life, as I mentioned above in my above verses.
Your claim:
“in a sense God may be viewed as a “Quadity”. … God as Creation is throughout physical reality (called “panentheism”). However, since this mode of revelation is impersonal, it has rightly been de-emphasized by most Christian denominations lest it lead to pantheism." ~ Quote by GWH.
My reply:
The idea that creation itself is somehow a fourth mode of God (sometimes called a "Quadity") or that God exists as creation through panentheism contradicts what the Holy Scriptures plainly teach. While the Bible absolutely affirms that creation displays God's power and glory, it consistently maintains a clear line between the Creator and everything He created. Romans 1:20 tells us that the invisible things of God are "understood by the things that are made," not that God is the same as what is made.

Scripture repeatedly denies that God is confined to, embodied in, or contained within physical structures or material reality. Acts 7:48 and Acts 17:24 plainly state that "the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands." This isn't just downplaying temple worship. It's denying the idea that God's being resides in constructed or physical spaces. Solomon confirms this in 1 Kings 8:27 and 2 Chronicles 6:18, declaring that "the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee." If even the highest created realms can't contain God, then creation itself can't possibly be considered a mode or extension of His being.
God's Word also explicitly states that God was not present within certain natural manifestations, which directly refutes panentheistic assumptions. In 1 Kings 19:11–12, Elijah witnesses powerful natural events (wind, earthquake, fire), yet the text repeatedly emphasizes that "the LORD was not in" them. These clear negations make it impossible to argue that God is somehow ontologically present as physical reality. God may work through creation, but He isn't reducible to it.
The Scriptures further clarify that God's relationship to creation is one of rule and authority, not embodiment. Isaiah 66:1 declares, "The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool." A throne and footstool are instruments of dominion. They're not parts of your being. This imagery affirms transcendence while preserving God's nearness. Similarly, Jeremiah 23:23–24 states that God fills heaven and earth, yet this filling refers to His sovereign presence and authority, not to an absorption of creation into His essence.
Taken together, God's Word leaves no room for panentheism, a divine "Quadity," or the idea of "God as Creation." These concepts collapse the biblical distinction between Creator and creature, a distinction the Holy Scriptures not only preserve but repeatedly emphasize. Creation testifies of God's power and glory, but God Himself remains eternal, uncontained, uncreated, and wholly distinct from all that He has made.

Please understand that I am not here to endlessly debate you, but merely to tell you what I believe Scripture actually says. I say this because I know you have ignored my points with Scripture before. My intention is not to get into any kind of forever back and forth on this particular topic, but merely correct with Scripture...
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I share your desire to keep the discussion moving forward and not play ping pong, and I have found it helpful to number the points claim/reply) being discussed, which I will do now:

1. I agree that distinguishing the Godhead by roles (God the Father as creator or initiator per Gen. 1:1, God the Son as Messiah or mediator per 1Tim. 2:5, and God the Spirit as indweller per Rom. 5:5) is not meant to divorce divine unity.

2. I agree that the same is true regarding denoting the distinctions per Scripture by the use of three prepositions: God the Father is over all creation (Eph. 4:6), God the Son is Immanuel or with humanity (Matt. 1:23), and the Holy Spirit is within all believers (Eph. 1:13).
It would be interesting to find out how many times each preposition is associated with each member of the Godhead.

3. I threw the third one in just because I have never had the opportunity to discuss it with anyone. I must ask for your criticism to be constructive. If you do not view the material universe as composed of God, then do you view it as separate from God? What sort of "line" do you envision separating God from creation? I do not see a line in Rom. 1:20 but rather that the invisible God is manifested by His physical creation. Nor do I think Acts 7:48 and Acts 17:24 intend to contradict God's omnipresence, but akin to 1 Kings 8:27 and 2 Chronicles 6:18 they all teach that God transcends physical dimensions of reality. As you said, "God may work through creation, but He isn't reducible to it." I do not see how God could work through creation without being present within it--without being it. However, we agree this does not affirm pantheism.

I see that I will need to delete some of your post in order to get below 10,000 words, so here goes...
 
I share your desire to keep the discussion moving forward and not play ping pong, and I have found it helpful to number the points claim/reply) being discussed, which I will do now:

1. I agree that distinguishing the Godhead by roles (God the Father as creator or initiator per Gen. 1:1, God the Son as Messiah or mediator per 1Tim. 2:5, and God the Spirit as indweller per Rom. 5:5) is not meant to divorce divine unity.

2. I agree that the same is true regarding denoting the distinctions per Scripture by the use of three prepositions: God the Father is over all creation (Eph. 4:6), God the Son is Immanuel or with humanity (Matt. 1:23), and the Holy Spirit is within all believers (Eph. 1:13).
It would be interesting to find out how many times each preposition is associated with each member of the Godhead.

3. I threw the third one in just because I have never had the opportunity to discuss it with anyone. I must ask for your criticism to be constructive. If you do not view the material universe as composed of God, then do you view it as separate from God? What sort of "line" do you envision separating God from creation? I do not see a line in Rom. 1:20 but rather that the invisible God is manifested by His physical creation. Nor do I think Acts 7:48 and Acts 17:24 intend to contradict God's omnipresence, but akin to 1 Kings 8:27 and 2 Chronicles 6:18 they all teach that God transcends physical dimensions of reality. As you said, "God may work through creation, but He isn't reducible to it." I do not see how God could work through creation without being present within it--without being it. However, we agree this does not affirm pantheism.

I see that I will need to delete some of your post in order to get below 10,000 words, so here goes...

We do not agree. Jesus is the creator who created everything according to the Bible. Modern Bibles obscure this truth. No offense. I love you in Christ, but this is probably why you are confused on this point because you have been reading primarily a corrupted NIV for many years.

We do not agree on your statement implying only the Holy Spirit indwells believers. While the Spirit does indwell believers, the Bible teaches that the Father and the Son indwells believers, too (as I have shown with Scripture to you previously). You would not be saved without the indwelling of Jesus (1 John 5:12). This is pretty basic Bible stuff.

So no, there are many things we do not agree on here.
Please stop putting words in my mouth that I agree with your statement of faith or confession (like within this recent post you made).
You do not appear to understand where I pointed out where we disagreed.
Please go back and carefully read my previous post to you very slowly or have ChatGPT analyze it for you and and then it can explain it to you in more simplistic terms.



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We do not agree. Jesus is the creator who created everything according to the Bible. Modern Bibles obscure this truth. No offense. I love you in Christ, but this is probably why you are confused on this point because you have been reading primarily a corrupted NIV for many years.

We do not agree on your statement implying only the Holy Spirit indwells believers. While the Spirit does indwell believers, the Bible teaches that the Father and the Son indwells believers, too (as I have shown with Scripture to you previously). You would not be saved without the indwelling of Jesus (1 John 5:12). This is pretty basic Bible stuff.

So no, there are many things we do not agree on here.
Please stop putting words in my mouth that I agree with your statement of faith or confession (like within this recent post you made).
You do not appear to understand where I pointed out where we disagreed.
Please go back and carefully read my previous post to you very slowly or have ChatGPT analyze it for you and and then it can explain it to you in more simplistic terms.
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I carefully enumerated the points and cited the Scriptural basis for what I said, and I ask that you do the same if you want this
discussion to move forward, because we are bogging as I list below:

1. You said "We do not agree. Jesus is the creator who created everything according to the Bible."
Does this mean that you do not agree with me saying that discussing the main roles of each member of the Godhead is not meant to divorce divine unity?

2. Does this mean the Bible does not say God created everything more times than it says Jesus created everything?

3. Regarding the HS, do you think the Bible says Jesus indwells believers more often than it says the HS indwells believers?

4. And if you disagree with my explanation of the Triunity, how about stating yours? Please have constructive criticism.

5. I agree that I do not understand where we disagree, so please explain it in more simplistic terms. Thanks!
 
I carefully enumerated the points and cited the Scriptural basis for what I said, and I ask that you do the same if you want this
discussion to move forward, because we are bogging as I list below:

1. You said "We do not agree. Jesus is the creator who created everything according to the Bible."
Does this mean that you do not agree with me saying that discussing the main roles of each member of the Godhead is not meant to divorce divine unity?

2. Does this mean the Bible does not say God created everything more times than it says Jesus created everything?

3. Regarding the HS, do you think the Bible says Jesus indwells believers more often than it says the HS indwells believers?

4. And if you disagree with my explanation of the Triunity, how about stating yours? Please have constructive criticism.

5. I agree that I do not understand where we disagree, so please explain it in more simplistic terms. Thanks!

As I mentioned, I'm not interested in continuing a back-and-forth discussion on this. I'm simply sharing my perspective so you and others understand where I stand on this topic. However, please don't claim "we agree" and then follow it with a statement that misrepresents my position through your wording. My views on this are already clearly stated in my previous posts in this thread. If what I've said needs further clarification, I mean no offense, but you may want to consult ChatGPT for assistance.

Just copy my previous comments into ChatGPT and ask for clarification (which will be based on my actual written statements here in the thread that you appear to have missed or not understood).

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