Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Blain]

Agree. A continual stream of vitriol diatribes and person attacks that had no equal.

Well did anyone report them? Tell oncefallen maybe?

 

[cv5]

In my opinion the reason Reformed False Doctrine has taken over the churches is because people were worried the truth(statement of facts) would be insulting.

And here we are.

Paul had no qualms about calling a spade a spade and neither should we.

In fact we need more of this and not less let alone the imposed censorship.

 

[Blain]

Paul had no qualms about calling a spade a spade and neither should we.

In fact we need more of this and not less let alone the imposed censorship.

It is how you do it that matters and as far as the imposed censorship goes well someone has to do it and there is very few mods to do it and they are usually not around to babysit us.

 

[Blain]

Paul had no qualms about calling a spade a spade and neither should we.

In fact we need more of this and not less let alone the imposed censorship.

Also just so you know I already told Robo op about what I do and he thanked me for it so there is that

 

[BillyBob]

Interesting ... I believe we're elect only after we're saved ... before that, we all are dead in trespasses and sins. I do not believe in a special "elect" subset of humanity ... all descendants of Adam are in the same boat. Those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ ... who is the "Elect" ... become "elect" once they are saved, not because they are special in any way, shape, or form, but because they are in the Elect.





and I believe all are called ... few are chosen. And those who are chosen are the ones who heed the call. Some ignore/reject the call. Just because someone ignores or rejects the call does not mean they weren't called.

.

Well, you certainly got some things correct, we were once dead in trespass and sin! And, the call, does in fact, go out for all to hear. Creation itself proclaims that we have a creator and leaves all men without excuse.
However, men are unable to hear/believe/trust in God without being made new. So much for volition! They cannot turn because they are without hope.
But the good news is that God will show mercy to some. Those who are shown mercy are His elect.

For He says:
“Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use”? That decision was made long ago, even before we were born. This is taught in the story of Jacob and Esau, God favored Jacob just as He favored Israel over other nations.

 

[Jordon]

Also just so you know I already told Robo op about what I do and he thanked me for it so there is that

Well you know you have to understand that faith is very sensitive to people so there's always going to be affliction and confrontation, it's part and parcel of growing in Faith, I believe the best mods are those who can moderate with patience, and really its not so Diffacult to get a point across without getting to personal.

 

[Blain]

Well you know you have to understand that faith is very sensitive to people so there's always going to be affliction and confrontation, it's part and parcel of growing in Faith, I believe the best mods are those who can moderate with patience, and really its not so Diffacult to get a point across without getting to personal.

Yes there will always be conflict in some way or form but it can be discussed in a mature and christ like manner on the forum where I am a mod we rarely have these issues of the level we see here and if we do we nip it in the bud

Really so long as everyone is respectful that is all I ask we can debate and discuss with different views and understanding but it is how we do it that matters
I try not to get to personal I admit I am not perfect in this but for the most part I try to be respectable and hope that others will follow that example if not then I do give them correction which I know is not appreciated here because I am not an actual mod but things will never change if someone does not try to change them even if I am hated for it

people are tired of the slandering and arguing and hateful or mocking comments we all want change in this place but if we don't actually put in the effort to do that then nothing will ever change

Be the spark that ignites the flame

 

[sawdust]

So because a pastor told you so that is what you believe? and yeah maybe I mispoke on it being for everyone but God distributes the gifts according to his will so if one asks for it with earnest I have no doubt he would grant it

Strewth! You just love to twist what I say. My pastor doesn't just "tell me so". He studies the culture, history, language and I bring my own intellect to the party and think about what he says. If I relied on my own supernatural experiences and pick a verse or two to justify those experiences as being God's way of working like you have shown, then I could have built my own "church".

God is not Santa Claus that we put our requests in and our earnestness gets us what we want.

Instead of distracting away from the debate, why not try answering the questions I posed to another poster here:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...rcise-free-will.218061/page-1743#post-5664174

 

[sawdust]

I don't believe God only saves few.

Honestly, you don't know what I believe. So far, what you say I teach is not so.

I don't think you know what you believe, leastwise not in any coherent manner. You say stuff that does not make any sense to a rational being who thinks logically.

Stick with your "you just don't understand me" ploy like some teenager. I don't much care discussing anything with you anymore.

grace and peace

 

[sawdust]

I have to admit that my post saying that God creates some for destruction was not correct. He has no need to do that! However, He creates them knowing that He will not provide them with the grace needed for salvation. Therefore, they will self destruct.

Yes, and the God who could have prevented it because He doesn't want to see anyone perish and takes no pleasure in seeing people die, doesn't lift a finger and then blames them for their incapacity and inability. It's like blaming children for being children.

 

[sawdust]

Firdt off no they are not statements of facts and secondly yes they are insults because you say them with a snarky attitude and third they are clearly intended

Maybe you want to think about your insults when you accuse someone of hardening their heart and quenching the Spirit simply because you don't like what they say.

 

[sawdust]

Ok but who was it? Because regardless of who it is they should not be doing that it is unfitting of a believer in Christ

I have no issue confronting them as I am a mod on another christian forum so I am accustomed to having to settle matters like that

Yes but you are not a mod here so stop trying to police everyone's behaviour and worry about yours alone.

 

[Jordon]

Maybe you want to think about your insults when you accuse someone of hardening their heart and quenching the Spirit simply because you don't like what they say.

well just from where I'm standing you've never owed to your own short comings whilst fully supporting inappropriate behaviour here , so he does have a valid reason for the way he's responding to you, and when you say things like God can't give you what you want, what kind of frame of mind do you think that puts him in, that's called insisting he gives you the answer you want.

 

[Blain]

Then if cessation is at the return of Christ why do two of the gifts fade away gradually (katargēthēsontai) while the other stops abruptly (pausontai)?

Also if the perfect is Christ, why is it in the neuter gender and not the masculine?

Should we not also question, how can we reach the full stature of Christ if during the whole church age our prophesy and knowledge is only partial?

1Cor.13:8-10
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Apart from anything else, having both prophesy and knowledge only in part forces us to disobey Rev.22:18 by adding both the prophetic utterance and more knowledge after John wrote. And if you want to argue that those two gifts only provide what can already be known in the scripture then what do they accomplish?

Thr thing is these are complex Those gifts do not add to scripture they are for the edifying of the body Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 1 corinthians 14:4 so that is the purpose of them now to the perfect and reaching perfection your asking a question no one truly knows because it isn't specific about it ,it says the word perfect so that could be interpreted in several ways

one such way is that it is Jesus himself and we reach perfection by meeting him in our glorified perfect bodies now to me this isn't a bad interpretation

 

[Blain]

Maybe you want to think about your insults when you accuse someone of hardening their heart and quenching the Spirit simply because you don't like what they say.

Yeah I suppose that is my bad I could have said it in a bettter way and I admit I am not perfect in this regard however what I said remains true
2 Timothy 2:23-24 ESV / 214 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,

Even if I am not perfect in this regard don't listen to me listen to the scriptures that goes for me as well

 

[sawdust]

Thr thing is these are complex Those gifts do not add to scripture they are for the edifying of the body Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 1 corinthians 14:4 so that is the purpose of them now to the perfect and reaching perfection your asking a question no one truly knows because it isn't specific about it ,it says the word perfect so that could be interpreted in several ways

one such way is that it is Jesus himself and we reach perfection by meeting him in our glorified perfect bodies now to me this isn't a bad interpretation

You sit there and tell me the meaning is vague while at the same time adamantly stating those three gifts continue just because some verses use the words "anybody" and "everybody".

Do you not see the problem there?

The Koine Greek is actually pretty definitive in it's meanings, much like Hebrew.

Your response hardly answers the questions I posed. God expects us to mature in this life so we are not left with vague ideas of His will and therefore not blown about by every wind of doctrine. Nor does He want us to be ignorant which is why he appoints pastor/teachers. But what, you don't need them? You're able to come to understanding without their years of study and discipline?

Any student of the word who is serious about learning truth needs all God gives to reach maturity, especially pastor/teachers who take their calling seriously and study, study, study.

It is you who are vague, not the scriptures. You say "those gifts" but two of those gifts do add to scripture. The gift of knowledge is knowledge of God and prophesy is the declaration of God's will, both for the now and future events. To simply toss away an understanding with vague statements has no place for a serious student of the Word of God.

You remain with your vague understandings, I will continue to listen to those who put the hard work in studying the word.

grace and peace.

 

[Blain]

You sit there and tell me the meaning is vague while at the same time adamantly stating those three gifts continue just because some verses use the words "anybody" and "everybody".

Do you not see the problem there?

The Koine Greek is actually pretty definitive in it's meanings, much like Hebrew.

Your response hardly answers the questions I posed. God expects us to mature in this life so we are not left with vague ideas of His will and therefore not blown about by every wind of doctrine. Nor does He want us to be ignorant which is why he appoints pastor/teachers. But what, you don't need them? You're able to come to understanding without their years of study and discipline?

Any student of the word who is serious about learning truth needs all God gives to reach maturity, especially pastor/teachers who take their calling seriously and study, study, study.

It is you who are vague, not the scriptures. You say "those gifts" but two of those gifts do add to scripture. The gift of knowledge is knowledge of God and prophesy is the declaration of God's will, both for the now and future events. To simply toss away an understanding with vague statements has no place for a serious student of the Word of God.

You remain with your vague understandings, I will continue to listen to those who put the hard work in studying the word.

grace and peace.

You know there really is no pleasing you and honestly I am done here nothing I say nor what verses I give nor any testimony and no reasoning is ever enough and this is not going to go anywhere you do as you wish but this is just going to be a constant with you and it is draining so I am just done

 

[BillyBob]

Yes, and the God who could have prevented it because He doesn't want to see anyone perish and takes no pleasure in seeing people die, doesn't lift a finger and then blames them for their incapacity and inability. It's like blaming children for being children.

God has always proclaimed that He will have mercy only on those of His choosing. But, as I can see, you believe that He must be an equal opportunity Savior for all mankind. If He does not save all, then He is unfair in your eyes.
In that case, the entire Bible should be re-written because it is crystal clear that He chose Israel, and utterly destroyed other nations!

 

[cv5]

Well, you certainly got some things correct, we were once dead in trespass and sin! And, the call, does in fact, go out for all to hear. Creation itself proclaims that we have a creator and leaves all men without excuse.
However, men are unable to hear/believe/trust in God without being made new. So much for volition! They cannot turn because they are without hope.
But the good news is that God will show mercy to some. Those who are shown mercy are His elect.

For He says:
“Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use”? That decision was made long ago, even before we were born. This is taught in the story of Jacob and Esau, God favored Jacob just as He favored Israel over other nations.

So you are saying that omniscient almighty God can't make good pots?
Please conduct some serious deep dive Bible studies and find out where you went wrong.
And FYI, those passages have been rightly divided and de-Calvinized many many times already.

But then again, willful obfuscation and Biblical illiteracy is certainly nothing new......

Isa 29:11
The whole vision has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one who is literate, saying, “Read this, please.” And he says, “I cannot, for it is sealed.”

Isa 29:12
Then the book is delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, “Read this, please.” And he says, “I am not literate.”

Isa 29:16
Surely you have things turned around!
Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay;
For shall the thing made say of him who made it,
“He did not make me”?
Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it,
“He has no understanding”?

 

[cv5]

However, men are unable to hear/believe/trust in God without being made new. So much for volition! They cannot turn because they are without hope.
But the good news is that God will show mercy to some. Those who are shown mercy are His elect.

For He says:
“Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use”? That decision was made long ago, even before we were born. This is taught in the story of Jacob and Esau, God favored Jacob just as He favored Israel over other nations.

You don't know that what you are actually saying is that it was God who corrupted the pre flood the world?
Disseminating such folly has its reward. Best be prepared!

Jer 18:4
And the vessel that he made of clay H2563 was marred ➔H7843 in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Gen 6:11
The earth also was corrupt H7843 before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

Gen 6:12
And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; H7843 for all flesh had corrupted H7843 his way upon the earth.

The KJV translates Strong's H7843 in the following manner: destroy (96x), corrupt (22x), mar (7x), destroyer (3x), corrupters (2x), waster (2x), spoilers (2x), battered (1x), corruptly (1x), miscellaneous (11x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to destroy, corrupt, go to ruin, decay
   1. (Niphal) to be marred, be spoiled, be corrupted, be corrupt, be injured, be ruined, be rotted
   2. (Piel)
      1. to spoil, ruin
      2. to pervert, corrupt, deal corruptly (morally)
   3. (Hiphil)
      1. to spoil, ruin, destroy
      2. to pervert, corrupt (morally)
      3. destroyer (participle)
   4. (Hophal) spoiled, ruined (participle)