If it be thy will

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Blain said:
I am curious then why Jesus who was perfect even bothered asking God to take his cup away from him
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God has ordained his means already for the future, ie his word to be preached, which means prayer can change things by the the means he has already provided 🙂. He knows your prayer before you pray

It doesn't mean we can change his mind.

Jesus was suffering what we suffer in our human nature, and he had a desire to want that suffering to end, but he realised it couldn't end by the will of his human nature. That passage was not about Jesus being perfect, it was about his human nature suffering.
 
Jordon said:
God has ordained his means already for the future, ie his word to be preached, which means prayer can change things by the the means he has already provided 🙂. He knows your prayer before you pray

It doesn't mean we can change his mind.

Jesus was suffering what we suffer in our human nature, and he had a desire to want that suffering to end, but he realised it couldn't end by the will of his human nature. That passage was not about Jesus being perfect, it was about his human nature suffering.
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So it was only because of his human nature that he asked? Even knowing that the fathers mind wouldn't change?
 
Blain said:
So it was only because of his human nature that he asked? Even knowing that the fathers mind wouldn't change?
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The scripture clearly teaches Jesus wanted his human suffering to be taken away,
 
Jordon said:
The scripture clearly teaches Jesus wanted his human suffering to be taken away,
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Yes but if God's mind cannot be changed then why would he even want his human suffering to be taken away if it was clearly God's will that he would suffer for our sake?
 
Blain said:
Yes but if God's mind cannot be changed then why would he even want his human suffering to be taken away if it was clearly God's will that he would suffer for our sake?
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maybe you need dwell into compassion that human nature has, and can have,

On a basic understanding of Human nature and human will, it's like this, if you desire a cup of tea, and you say to your spouse if it be thy will take this cup from me and make me another cup of tea, does your spouse have to make you another cup of tea. 😋
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But the cup Jesus was drinking is also known as the cup of the wrath, in a metaphor sense.

Why would that be, so why would it be known as a cup of wrath, what should that represent. ?

And what could have been on the mind of human compassion on the bases he was about to drink a cup of wrath.



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James 4:15 recognises the importance of acknowledging God's will and sovereignty above your own will, which should encourage the believer to submit to God's will, and recognise he has a plan that can't be changed unless he changes the outcome in your life by his means he as already ordained and set in motion for the future.

But when human desire from compassion strikes the desire can be to change the outcome and change Gods mind, without recognising his means have already been ordained
 
Jordon said:
James 4:15 recognises the importance of acknowledging God's will and sovereignty above your own will, which should encourage the believer to submit to God's will, and recognise he has a plan that can't be changed unless he changes the outcome in your life by his means he as already ordained and set in motion for the future.

But when human desire from compassion strikes the desire can be to change the outcome and change Gods mind, without recognising his means have already been ordained
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Seems like that is putting limits on God’s compassion and saying that prayer is pointless since what’s going to happen is going to happen no matter if you pray or not. I’d stick with God can do whatever He wants to do whether it’s changing His mind or not changing it. Either way I’ll respect His decision because He knows better than I.

And could your spouse not change her mind and fix you a cup of tea?
 
Just_A__Follower said:
Seems like that is putting limits on God’s compassion and saying that prayer is pointless since what’s going to happen is going to happen no matter if you pray or not. I’d stick with God can do whatever He wants to do whether it’s changing His mind or not changing it. Either way I’ll respect His decision because He knows better than I.

And could your spouse not change her mind and fix you a cup of tea?
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That would be a miss representation of what I said, seeing as my understanding in demonstrating, Not one person can change Gods will, or how he goes about changing us.

When it comes to limiting God it generally done by somebody believing they can change his mind with theres.

Err I don't think so coz my post demonstrated how a person will, will not be changed if it so desires, and at the same time will try to change a persons will if there to lazy to change there desire on the bases you can do it for them.
 
Jordon said:
That would be a miss representation of what I said, seeing as my understanding in demonstrating, Not one person can change Gods will, or how he goes about changing us.

When it comes to limiting God it generally done by somebody believing they can change his mind with theres.

Err I don't think so coz my post demonstrated how a person will, will not be changed if it so desires, and at the same time will try to change a persons will if there to lazy to change there desire on the bases you can do it for them.
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So can God not change His will? Can He not make adjustments in His plan due to us messing it up?
 
Just_A__Follower said:
So can God not change His will? Can He not make adjustments in His plan due to us messing it up?
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The understanding I have is God has already ordained his means by which we can trust in.

Which is clearly represented in the sermon that by his means already provided for the future, things can be changed in your life by all the means that have already been ordained for his plan for you, you must of missed that part or didn't listen, from 7 minutes on in the video just a few minutes or so from that point you should get a clear message. That what your implying here is spoken of in a different light.

Which by all the means God has already provided and ordained for the future, things can change in your life. But is not understood that you can change Gods mind.

It's understood that things can change by trusting in his will to be done through prayer, and Gods word which has already been provided, for your future. Which is by all means
 
I listened as I’ve listened to probably most of Sproul’s sermons on YouTube.

He really didn’t make a case for God not changing his mind though. God knows what we need before we ask. The problem is that most of the time we pray for what we want and not what we need because we don’t know what we need besides food, water, shelter, and Christ. I do believe that God sometimes changes His mind and gives us the things we want in order to let us fall on our face. Just as I sometimes give in to my children’s request to do something stupid. Them trusting that I know better is not enough for them so I change my mind after they request multiple times and let them learn the hard way. Wasn’t part of my plan so I changed my plan.

i believe the flood is proof of God changing His plan. You could say that God knew everything from the beginning so the flood was just part of His original plan, but was it? If so why not have Seth build an ark and flood it then? Could His plan not change based on whether we follow it or not?
 
God told Moses He wanted to kill the Hebrew people and begin again with Moses. Moses spoke to God like an attorney and said if you do that then the other nations will say this about You.

Next Verse tells us that God repented.

That's God changing His mind so it can be done.
 
Blain said:
Yes but if God's mind cannot be changed then why would he even want his human suffering to be taken away if it was clearly God's will that he would suffer for our sake?
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Not everyone can win the race, that's the truth and matter of a life, like me here finishing 3rd on world tour today, I trained all week for this race, and such is the level of competitions, that the standards are high, the fun part is it actually feels and drives like the real thing, and driving in this race with the equipment I have is just like driving a real car, no difference what so ever, from feel to everything. On this track the slightest mistake on your off, there's no margin for error, and perfection is demanded to drive on the limit of the car your handling,

Well this is how it is with God if you have the equipment you have the driver 😋

Race on buddy

Enjoy the best race you'll ever see imo

 
Jordon said:
Not everyone can win the race, that's the truth and matter of a life, like me here finishing 3rd on world tour today, I trained all week for this race, and such is the level of competitions, that the standards are high, the fun part is it actually feels and drives like the real thing, and driving in this race with the equipment I have is just like driving a real car, no difference what so ever, from feel to everything. On this track the slightest mistake on your off, there's no margin for error, and perfection is demanded to drive on the limit of the car your handling,

Well this is how it is with God if you have the equipment you have the driver 😋

Race on buddy

Enjoy the best race you'll ever see imo

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Wow third place is pretty good buddy good for you well done
 
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Jordon said:
we cant change Gods mind is my understanding, doesn't matter what we say, or do prayer is about trust.

And we have to trust God knows all things and he knows his plan for all humanity.

For us to change Gods mind means we have to change his plan, I believe exactly like the understanding in the lecture, by a well put together educated lecture, For us to change Gods mind we would have to be God himself. It's about God changing our minds
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What you believe is irrelevant to what is true. The Bible gives accounts of God changing His mind. God Himself says that He changes His mind. But because those facts do not agree with the God you imagine in your mind, you reject those scriptures and invent some incoherent philosophical work-around to justify your rejection of what God straight-forwardly tells us about Himself.

Jer. 18:5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,

6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
 
Jordon said:
The understanding I have is God has already ordained his means by which we can trust in.

Which is clearly represented in the sermon that by his means already provided for the future, things can be changed in your life by all the means that have already been ordained for his plan for you, you must of missed that part or didn't listen, from 7 minutes on in the video just a few minutes or so from that point you should get a clear message. That what your implying here is spoken of in a different light.

Which by all the means God has already provided and ordained for the future, things can change in your life. But is not understood that you can change Gods mind.

It's understood that things can change by trusting in his will to be done through prayer, and Gods word which has already been provided, for your future. Which is by all means
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If God has already ordained His means then we cannot trust Him.

If you open your eyes and observe the world around you there are people everywhere who believed some time ago but no longer believe in Jesus today. According to you, that happened because it was God's will, and it occurred by His ordained means, which cannot change. So there can be no guarantee for you that God has ordained the means to keep you believing in the future. Maybe you are also one of the ones He is going to pull the rug out from under, according to His unchangeable ordained means.

Your theology is incoherent.
 
lrs68 said:
God told Moses He wanted to kill the Hebrew people and begin again with Moses. Moses spoke to God like an attorney and said if you do that then the other nations will say this about You.

Next Verse tells us that God repented.

That's God changing His mind so it can be done.
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I guess. You missed the part that the plea for his mercy was the reason why God changed the outcome of of those people, that's a point in trusting in God's mercy.

That's the whole point Moses was the means that God has provided for the people before hand to change there future, to help God lead them to the promised land, the fact Moses reminded God of his plans, would not mean God had forgot, it means the plea for mercy was more the reason and the means God had provided.

The only reason I brought this up in the first place was to show why people have a valid argument but then to show how they think they can change Gods mind. If the means has already been provided and a person trusts in his mercy, then thats what changes the outcome.
 
PaulThomson said:
If God has already ordained His means then we cannot trust Him.

If you open your eyes and observe the world around you there are people everywhere who believed some time ago but no longer believe in Jesus today. According to you, that happened because it was God's will, and it occurred by His ordained means, which cannot change. So there can be no guarantee for you that God has ordained the means to keep you believing in the future. Maybe you are also one of the ones He is going to pull the rug out from under, according to His unchangeable ordained means.

Your theology is incoherent.
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God changes things by us trusting in his will, which he has already ordained, where as you make out that means nothing, Gods word makes out you have a reason to be actively involved in his will by coming to him, and being actively involved in his will by trusting in whatever means he has already set in place , so no, it's not as irrelevant as you think.
 
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