Acts 2:38 Comparison: Evangelical vs. Oneness / Baptismal-Regeneration View

[FlyingDove]

Seems very consistent in the Text:

• Matt3:11 Jesus will baptize in-en Holy Spirit
• Mark1:8 Jesus will baptize in-en Holy Spirit
• Acts1:5 you will be baptized in-en Holy Spirit
• 1Cor12:13 in-en one Spirit we all were baptized into-eis one Body
  • Set up by 1Cor10:2 in-en the cloud and in-en the sea all were baptized into-eis Moses

Seems, as you said, "Big difference":

• The is locative language - the sphere in which baptism takes place - water & Holy Spirit
  • The ones doing the baptisms are Jesus' agents & Jesus

NKJ Matt28:18-20 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 "teaching them to keep/guard/preserve/observe/obey all things that I have commanded you; and lo,
I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.​

QUOTE "The is locative language - the sphere in which baptism takes place - water & Holy Spirit": The ones doing the baptisms are Jesus' agents & Jesus". End Quote.

This is theological mumbo‑jumbo. There is only ONE agent of Spirit baptism > Jesus, period. Scripture never assigns Spirit baptism to "human agents".

There is only ONE AGENT > JESUS, PERIOD! Furthermore, God parted the sea & they were never IN the water.

QUOTE "(1 Cor 10:2)
Israel was not inside the cloud or inside the sea. They passed through the sea & the cloud was above them." END QOUTE.

QUESTION: Who baptized Israel "in the cloud & in the sea"?

The cloud didn't baptize them - the sea didn't baptize them - Moses didn't baptize them - Israel didn't baptize themselves.

The only possible administrator of the baptism, is God.

Spirit‑baptism passages all say the same thing
Matt 3:11, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
Mark 1:8, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
Luke 3:16, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
John 1:33, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
Acts 1:5, you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit - Not one of these passages includes: water or, human agents.

These are ALL Spirit baptism, not water baptism. The grammar, context & theology all agree.

1 Cor12:For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(MY NOTE: One Spirit baptizes (Who baptizes with the Holy Spirit > JESUS) into one body & we drink from Water? NO! we drink/partake in one SPIRIT)

 

[Biilybob65]

QUOTE "The is locative language - the sphere in which baptism takes place - water & Holy Spirit": The ones doing the baptisms are Jesus' agents & Jesus". End Quote.

This is theological mumbo‑jumbo. There is only ONE agent of Spirit baptism > Jesus, period. Scripture never assigns Spirit baptism to "human agents".

There is only ONE AGENT > JESUS, PERIOD! Furthermore, God parted the sea & they were never IN the water.

QUOTE "(1 Cor 10:2)
Israel was not inside the cloud or inside the sea. They passed through the sea & the cloud was above them." END QOUTE.

QUESTION: Who baptized Israel "in the cloud & in the sea"?

The cloud didn't baptize them - the sea didn't baptize them - Moses didn't baptize them - Israel didn't baptize themselves.

The only possible administrator of the baptism, is God.

Spirit‑baptism passages all say the same thing
Matt 3:11, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
Mark 1:8, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
Luke 3:16, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
John 1:33, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
Acts 1:5, you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit - Not one of these passages includes: water or, human agents.

These are ALL Spirit baptism, not water baptism. The grammar, context & theology all agree.

1 Cor12:For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(MY NOTE: One Spirit baptizes (Who baptizes with the Holy Spirit > JESUS) into one body & we drink from Water? NO! we drink/partake in one SPIRIT)

will get back with you

 

[Biilybob65]

QUOTE "The is locative language - the sphere in which baptism takes place - water & Holy Spirit": The ones doing the baptisms are Jesus' agents & Jesus". End Quote.

This is theological mumbo‑jumbo. There is only ONE agent of Spirit baptism > Jesus, period. Scripture never assigns Spirit baptism to "human agents".

There is only ONE AGENT > JESUS, PERIOD! Furthermore, God parted the sea & they were never IN the water.

QUOTE "(1 Cor 10:2)
Israel was not inside the cloud or inside the sea. They passed through the sea & the cloud was above them." END QOUTE.

QUESTION: Who baptized Israel "in the cloud & in the sea"?

The cloud didn't baptize them - the sea didn't baptize them - Moses didn't baptize them - Israel didn't baptize themselves.

The only possible administrator of the baptism, is God.

Spirit‑baptism passages all say the same thing
Matt 3:11, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
Mark 1:8, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
Luke 3:16, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
John 1:33, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
Acts 1:5, you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit - Not one of these passages includes: water or, human agents.

These are ALL Spirit baptism, not water baptism. The grammar, context & theology all agree.

1 Cor12:For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(MY NOTE: One Spirit baptizes (Who baptizes with the Holy Spirit > JESUS) into one body & we drink from Water? NO! we drink/partake in one SPIRIT)

Here is something for you to chew on for a bit. The spirit baptizes the same way Jesus baptized in John 4:1,2 through the teaching of the word that we believe and submit to. Here is another thing to consider. The baptism that John said that Jesus was to baptize with is that of Acts 2:38 and Paul tells that in Romans 6 where it is God's spiritual work transforming you from dead to alive in Christ (the new birth) not the water or anything but God (the spirit) doing the spiritual work (not physical but spiritual work.)

 

[FlyingDove]

Here is something for you to chew on for a bit. The spirit baptizes the same way Jesus baptized in John 4:1,2 through the teaching of the word that we believe and submit to. Here is another thing to consider. The baptism that John said that Jesus was to baptize with is that of Acts 2:38 and Paul tells that in Romans 6 where it is God's spiritual work transforming you from dead to alive in Christ (the new birth) not the water or anything but God (the spirit) doing the spiritual work (not physical but spiritual work.)

LOL Biilybob65, You said the Spirit baptizes "the same way Jesus baptized in Jn 4:1–2." But Jn 4:1–2 records: Jesus DID NOT baptize anyone.

So, if the Spirit baptizes the same way Jesus did in Jn 4, then the Spirit baptizes no one.

Additionally, Your claim contradicts what Matt 3:11, Lk 3:16, Mk 1:8, Jn 1:33, Acts 1:4-5 &, 10:44-45 record.

You also claimed the baptism Jesus promised is Acts 2:38. But Jesus said the Spirit baptism would happen "not many days from now" (Acts 1:5) & it happened in Acts 2:1–4 > BEFORE anyone was water baptized. Acts 2:38 is the crowd responding to the gospel. It's NOT the Spirit baptism Jesus promised.

And you didn't answered the question: Who baptized Israel "in the cloud and in the sea"? The cloud didn't, the sea didn't, Moses didn't, Israel didn't. The only possible administrator is God.

Paul uses the same construction in 1 Cor 12:13, I.E. Christ baptizes & the Spirit is the element.

Every Spirit baptism passage says the same thing: Jesus is the baptizer, the Spirit is the element. NO water, NO human/hands agents & No exceptions.

 

[Biilybob65]

LOL Biilybob65, You said the Spirit baptizes "the same way Jesus baptized in Jn 4:1–2." But Jn 4:1–2 records: Jesus DID NOT baptize anyone.

So, if the Spirit baptizes the same way Jesus did in Jn 4, then the Spirit baptizes no one.

Additionally, Your claim contradicts what Matt 3:11, Lk 3:16, Mk 1:8, Jn 1:33, Acts 1:4-5 &, 10:44-45 record.

You also claimed the baptism Jesus promised is Acts 2:38. But Jesus said the Spirit baptism would happen "not many days from now" (Acts 1:5) & it happened in Acts 2:1–4 > BEFORE anyone was water baptized. Acts 2:38 is the crowd responding to the gospel. It's NOT the Spirit baptism Jesus promised.

And you didn't answered the question: Who baptized Israel "in the cloud and in the sea"? The cloud didn't, the sea didn't, Moses didn't, Israel didn't. The only possible administrator is God.

Paul uses the same construction in 1 Cor 12:13, I.E. Christ baptizes & the Spirit is the element.

Every Spirit baptism passage says the same thing: Jesus is the baptizer, the Spirit is the element. NO water, NO human/hands agents & No exceptions.

That's okay I was pretty sure it was over your head but just wanted to give you something to think about

 

[FlyingDove]

That's okay I was pretty sure it was over your head but just wanted to give you something to think about

Over my head, says the guy that slithers out from under a corrupt Oneness false doctrine rock.

 

[Biilybob65]

Over my head, says the guy that slithers out from under a corrupt Oneness false doctrine rock.

Sorry don't understand the reference

 

[Biilybob65]

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

This is really not that hard to grasp what the author is trying to say.

It is credited to Jesus as having baptized more disciples than John through the teaching of the word. Jesus did not do the actual dipping he had his disciples do that for him but he did teach baptism therefore it is said that he baptized them because of his teaching.

I do not understand how you can not grasp what is being said there. Do you really not get it or are you simply refusing to have faith in his teaching?

 

[FlyingDove]

Sorry don't understand the reference

Not surprised, it fits with your ongoing lack of understanding.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I do not understand how you can not grasp what is being said there. Do you really not get it or are you simply refusing to have faith in his teaching?

He's blinded by the errors of mid-Acts (hyper) dispensationalism, which doesn't believe baptism is necessary for gentiles

 

[FlyingDove]

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

This is really not that hard to grasp what the author is trying to say.

It is credited to Jesus as having baptized more disciples than John through the teaching of the word. Jesus did not do the actual dipping he had his disciples do that for him but he did teach baptism therefore it is said that he baptized them because of his teaching.

I do not understand how you can not grasp what is being said there. Do you really not get it or are you simply refusing to have faith in his teaching?

BillyBob, I understand exactly what's being said. You're trying to turn a water baptism passage (Jn 4:1–2) into a Spirit baptism passage, but the text doesn't support that move.

In Jn 4, Jesus is alive & ministering before His glorification. These baptisms Jesus disciples are performing are the same repentance based water baptism John's disciples did.

Jesus had performed many supernatural acts & His crowd gatherings had surpassed John's.

Scripture proclaims:

Jn 7:
39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Every Spirit baptism passage says the same thing: Jesus is the baptizer, the Spirit is the element, No water, No human hands & No exceptions.

Matt 3:11, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
Mark 1:8, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
Luke 3:16, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
John 1:33, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
Acts 1:5, you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit
1 Cor 12:13 Baptized by/in the Spirit > Only Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

I have full faith in Jesus’ teaching.

It's your interpretation > adding water & human agents where Scripture never does, that I find lacking.

 

[studier]

This is theological mumbo‑jumbo.

It's actually Greek exegesis terminology - the terminology normally used in classifying prepositions in this case. Happy to explain it if you can muster up some respect in your communication.

After that, did you not see the part where I identified Jesus as the baptizer and Him promising to be with those He commanded to be baptizing? This should paint you a picture of Who is involved in legitimate baptisms.

 

[hornetguy]

You also claimed the baptism Jesus promised is Acts 2:38. But Jesus said the Spirit baptism would happen "not many days from now" (Acts 1:5) & it happened in Acts 2:1–4 > BEFORE anyone was water baptized.

If you want to be technical... Jesus was talking only to the apostles about the coming baptism of the Spirit... so if that's your fall-back position, then NOBODY else should be receiving the Spirit baptism... only the apostles.

You are picking and choosing which scriptures to reference, instead of taking ALL the scriptures, and harmonizing them...
Peter told the crowd to repent and be baptized (which was immersion in water) for the forgiveness of their sins, and if they did that, they would receive the Spirit as a gift from God.... THAT is the baptism (immersion) into the Spirit.. They happen at the same time. It's still one baptism, in water, just as John had been doing, but Jesus added the immersion into the Spirit at the same time...
"Were you baptized with John's baptism, or Jesus' baptism" there was a difference between the two.

The faith only crowd wants to conveniently overlook the fact that for a couple of thousand years, ALL believers knew the necessity of baptism... it took that long for folks to get smart enough to decide we really didn't need it at all.... smh....

 

[Biilybob65]

If you want to be technical... Jesus was talking only to the apostles about the coming baptism of the Spirit... so if that's your fall-back position, then NOBODY else should be receiving the Spirit baptism... only the apostles.

You are picking and choosing which scriptures to reference, instead of taking ALL the scriptures, and harmonizing them...
Peter told the crowd to repent and be baptized (which was immersion in water) for the forgiveness of their sins, and if they did that, they would receive the Spirit as a gift from God.... THAT is the baptism (immersion) into the Spirit.. They happen at the same time. It's still one baptism, in water, just as John had been doing, but Jesus added the immersion into the Spirit at the same time...
"Were you baptized with John's baptism, or Jesus' baptism" there was a difference between the two.

The faith only crowd wants to conveniently overlook the fact that for a couple of thousand years, ALL believers knew the necessity of baptism... it took that long for folks to get smart enough to decide we really didn't need it at all.... smh....

agreed

 

[studier]

The faith only crowd wants to conveniently overlook the fact that for a couple of thousand years, ALL believers knew the necessity of baptism... it took that long for folks to get smart enough to decide we really didn't need it at all.... smh....

I'm just repeating this.

 

[Biilybob65]

BillyBob, I understand exactly what's being said. You're trying to turn a water baptism passage (Jn 4:1–2) into a Spirit baptism passage, but the text doesn't support that move.

In Jn 4, Jesus is alive & ministering before His glorification. These baptisms Jesus disciples are performing are the same repentance based water baptism John's disciples did.

Jesus had performed many supernatural acts & His crowd gatherings had surpassed John's.

Scripture proclaims:

Jn 7:
39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Every Spirit baptism passage says the same thing: Jesus is the baptizer, the Spirit is the element, No water, No human hands & No exceptions.

Matt 3:11, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
Mark 1:8, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
Luke 3:16, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
John 1:33, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
Acts 1:5, you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit
1 Cor 12:13 Baptized by/in the Spirit > Only Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

I have full faith in Jesus’ teaching.

It's your interpretation > adding water & human agents where Scripture never does, that I find lacking.

See you still miss the point all around. I am trying to get you to see that one can be said to baptize by teaching baptism even if they are not the one doing the dipping. I am not trying to talk about what baptism is in question but who was said to be the baptizer even though thy did not do the dipping. Think what I am saying and stop trying to put words in my writing.

 

[FlyingDove]

See you still miss the point all around. I am trying to get you to see that one can be said to baptize by teaching baptism even if they are not the one doing the dipping. I am not trying to talk about what baptism is in question but who was said to be the baptizer even though thy did not do the dipping. Think what I am saying and stop trying to put words in my writing.

BillyBob, even if Jesus had baptized with water (He didn't!). That still has nothing to do with who actually baptizes with/by/in the Holy Spirit.

Water baptism & Spirit baptism are two different categories with different administrators.

Scripture explicitly identifies the Spirit‑baptizer:
Matt 3:11, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
Mark 1:8, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
Luke 3:16, He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit
John 1:33, He will baptize in the Holy Spirit
Acts 1:5, you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit
1 Cor 12:13, we were baptized in one Spirit into one body

In every Spirit baptism cited in scripture: Jesus ALONE is the baptizer, the Spirit is the element & no human hands are involved.

Jn 4 is a water‑baptism passage taking place before the Spirit was even given (Jn 7:39). It has no bearing on who performs Spirit baptism & only distracts from the core discussion > Spiritual (Holy) Spirit baptism.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

In every Spirit baptism cited in scripture: Jesus ALONE is the baptizer, the Spirit is the element & no human hands are involved.

Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. Acts 8:14-17​

​

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. Acts 19:5-6​

​

​

 

[Lamar]

BillyBob, even if Jesus had baptized with water (He didn't!). That still has nothing to do with who actually baptizes with/by/in the Holy Spirit.

The ministry of Jesus Christ was most certainly one of water baptism for the remission of sins. It was in line with and overlapped the ministry of John the Baptist.

Water baptism & Spirit baptism are two different categories with different administrators.

Water baptism & Spirit baptism are two distinct events.

One is a command for a physical act tied to the remission of sins.

The other is a metaphysical blessing promised after water baptism.

 

[FlyingDove]

If you want to be technical... Jesus was talking only to the apostles about the coming baptism of the Spirit... so if that's your fall-back position, then NOBODY else should be receiving the Spirit baptism... only the apostles.

You are picking and choosing which scriptures to reference, instead of taking ALL the scriptures, and harmonizing them...
Peter told the crowd to repent and be baptized (which was immersion in water) for the forgiveness of their sins, and if they did that, they would receive the Spirit as a gift from God.... THAT is the baptism (immersion) into the Spirit.. They happen at the same time. It's still one baptism, in water, just as John had been doing, but Jesus added the immersion into the Spirit at the same time...
"Were you baptized with John's baptism, or Jesus' baptism" there was a difference between the two.

The faith only crowd wants to conveniently overlook the fact that for a couple of thousand years, ALL believers knew the necessity of baptism... it took that long for folks to get smart enough to decide we really didn't need it at all.... smh....

PART ONE:

If we're going to harmonize Scripture, we must start with the clearest salvation events & interpret the unclear by the clear & not the other way around.”

Hornetguy, if we're going to "take ALL the Scriptures & harmonize them. We have to start with the clearest salvation event in the entire book of Acts. The one Peter himself uses to interpret Pentecost.

The Holy Spirit fell on Peter & the others without water, before water, as they were speaking in tongues (Acts 2:1-4)

Acts 10:44 The Holy Spirit fell (NO WATER) on all who heard the word. 45) Peter & the Jewish believers with him were astonished. Because "on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Cornelius & his household marks the 1st time in Scripture that Gentiles receive the Spirit & it happens apart from water.

Cornelius' household marks a paradigm shift that continues throughout Paul' epistles. In how Christ administers His Holy Spirit baptism: they heard the gospel, believed & the received the Holy Spirit Eph 1:13.

Later Peter explains it like this: The Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning (Acts 11:15). & both times it happened before water.

Now let’s harmonize with the master builder of the Body of Christ, Paul (1 Cor 3:10).

Paul explains the salvation event more clearly than anyone:
Justified by FAITH apart from works. (Rom 3:28)
To the one who does not work but BELIEVES & his FAITH is counted as righteousness. (Rom 4:5)
We have peace with God through FAITH. (Rom 5:1)
Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? (Gal 3:2)
After believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit. (Eph 1:13)

Paul' next statement is impossible if water baptism is necessary for salvation. Paul explicitly says: Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel. (1 Cor 1:17) This alone makes water‑based salvation impossible & it sets the stage for the real question: What gospel did Paul actually preach?